From separate streamer and DAC to al-in-one suggestion

I made the move from separates to the T+A SDV 3100 HV (Streamer/Player; DAC; Pre). My (prior) standalone DAC was R2R. The T+A DAC is delta/sigma.

Take a look at their R series Multi Source Player. 

T+A MP 2000 R MK II

Wonder if I'll be happy with the latest sigma/delta dacs in a all-in-one type unit. Anyone else made a similar move to mine?

Thanks @david_ten I've always loved t+a's designs, and would love the MP2000, but about double my budget :)

I don't believe you mentioned a budget but you are already a part of the Lumin family.  I went from separates to the Lumin X-1.  The Lumin X-1 does it all. 

+1 for the X1

I bought a Cary DMS-600 from Cary in NC that was a traded in unit.  Great price and product.  Never owned a dac or streamer before and jumped in via Qobuz and am glad I did.  Cary CD players last 20 yrs or so......vinyl way back when.  Enjoy!

I will use it strictly as a Roon endpoint

Might consider the Bryston BDP 3.14.  Especially if your using Roon.   

I just have there dac-less BDP-pi and it makes a great Roon endpoint.

REview of the DAC which is basically whats in the BDP 3.14 streamer

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bryston-bda-3-da-processor-page-2

What about the Teac UD-701-N?  I believe there are some people very enthusiastic about it.

Budget would be in line with the examples I had been eyeing so under $5k

You’ve got a nice tube DAC, and if you like its sound I think you’re gonna be disappointed with a DS DAC.  If that’s the case I’d look for another solution. 

An all in one is the level headed way to do it. Just like getting a well sorted CDP, you eliminate an extra box, cabling and all the ways added noise can find it's way in. Timing issues should go right out the window as well.

As for going for one with a AKM chip, I can wholeheartedly approve that move. I don't stream but my Technics SL-G700 SACD player is simply sublime in presentation, presenting an almost analog sound to the music that's so far from the other digital players I've had that it still amazes me. 

The only caveat is it will take a good 6 weeks to break in and there will be times when you're wondering when it's all going to happen but when it does, it's a beautiful thing. There's a reason they call it their Velvet Sound chip. All the positives of digital and lots of that analog ease. Good luck.

All the best,
Nonoise

Just curious, but why are you giving up the flexibility of separate dac and streamer? 

Wow finally a post about audio.  stream DAC combo is the route to go as long as it is modular and you can upgrade down the road. Simaudio comes to mind with all their components. Your local dealer can do the upgrades. NAD has that flexibility also. 

My suggestion is that you are going backwards.

@Carlsbad

“…My suggestion is that you are going backwards….”

+1

“…My suggestion is that you are going backwards….”

+2

That T+A 3100 sounds amazing, per the AbSound review. >$30k!

I’ve been seriously considering the new Meitner MA3 DAC/streamer (Roon-ready endpoint) with volume control (so essentially a preamp too, though the volume is digitally-controlled). A simple all-digital system with the MA3 running straight into my amp. It’s about $10K, which is a big investment for me, but the DAC is the heart of a digital system, imo. EMM/Meitner says the DAC firmware will be upgradeable, so this box should have a good lifespan.
Meitner MA3 review

A Mola Mola Tambaqui is considered an excellent DAC with supposedly a great volume control. It has RJ45 streaming though when the unit is demoed at USA shows it was streamed with Aurellic streamer to USB.

I think it is ROON READY on the Ethernet streaming.

Edit: I just saw your budget post above. I would look at the SImAudio streaming preamp.

The Lumin X-1 does it all

The Lumin P1 does more (in terms of features/functionality, not SQ).

Less expensive alternatives?  

Consider Matrix Audio or HiFi Rose products.  

Maybe Cambridge Audio as well.

That’s funny, I just went through this exact scenario. I had a total of SIX components for my front end: SOtM SMS200 Ultra Neo streamer with upgraded power supply, Denafrips Gaia DDS, Denafrips Venus II DAC, and a Hattor preamp with vacuum tube line stage. Great sounds and I really have always loved Denafrips. First thing I tried was the streamer connected to a Classe PRE preamp (DAC built in), and although it’s an amazing preamp, the DAC fell short big time. Next thing I tried was the Rose 150B with the Hattor preamp. This was a step in the right direction. I had this for three weeks and I then tried without the preamp. Wow. Hifi Rose direct into my amp is so perfect. Six components replaced by one. It sounds insane, but the sound quality improved even more after another month. Very happy with the Rose into a Parasound JC5 running a pair of KEF Blades.

@patrickdowns

I used to own EMM Labs DA2 so I am intimately familiar with Ed’s work. While MA3 may have all the features you are looking for, you still need an external server to run Roon core. I encourage you to look into Merging Technologies +player. The +player has a built in VC, headphone jack and offers a distinct advantage with a built in Roon Core / endpoint. I didn’t think I could possibly do better than my pairing of DA2 and Aurender N20 ($37K - retail) until I auditioned +player. The +player exceeded all of my expectations from all-in-one box streaming player. IMHO, +player have no peer if one is seeking realism, transparency and details from their digital system.

I was going to recommend the +player to @kray until I read his post about his budget.  

@lalitk

I've looked at Merging Technologies gear...looks amazing. Above my budget, sadly. I already have a Roon core and streamer (Small Green Computer and SonoreRendu).

Did you like the sound of the EMM?

@kray  A HiFi Rose was listed on the other major listing site, yesterday.

@kray I pointed to the MP 2000 R Mk II since it lists within your budget range used, though rarely in the U.S.  If you are interested and want to check on demo / used units here in the U.S., PM me.

@patrickdowns

I just wanted to give your another option to consider if you are pursuing MA3 which is not nearly as good as DA2. And yes, I liked DA2 until I auditioned +player :-)

The DA2 is one of the best DAC’s but the DAC inside +player is not one or two notches but quite a few notches above DA2. In direct comparison, the DA2 sounded ‘congested’ especially with high resolution content like DSD’s. Merging pedigree with DSD mastering in recording studios clearly shines through +player. That’s why I went all out with +player by adding external +power supply and +clock.

I’m not sure why you would separate instead of upgrade the DAC. The bang for the buck would be in the final component before the pre-amp correct ? Just my thoughts 

Looks like the Meitner MA3 is creating a buzz here. As is often the case, it is accompanied by some disinformation as well. Prior to the release of the MA3, EMM Labs released a major upgrade (known as “V2”) to the DA2, DV2, and DAC2X and provided current owners with a factory upgrade path to V2. Several reviews and forum posts have said that the V2 upgrade provides a monumentally significant improvement in sound quality and a very different sound character than the pre-V2 version. Suffice it to say that the pre-V2 EMM Labs DACs do not represent current EMM Labs nor Meitner products’ sound.

The Meitner MA3 utilizes the same custom DAC modules, clock and digital circuitry as the V2 version of the EMM Labs DA2 and DV2. The DA3 retails for $10,500USD and the DV2 for $30,000USD.

Hardware differences between the EM Labs V2 DAC and the MA3 are explained in a review by The Computer Audiophile on the Audiophile Style website:

“Huge cost savings were passed on to consumers with the new all metal chassis, smaller remote control, circuit boards, and different power supply of the MA3. The DV2 employs Ed Meitner’s proprietary switch mode power supply and ceramic circuit boards with tighter tolerance components, whereas the MA3 has a custom specified power supply meeting the voltage, noise and current performance requirements of Ed and his team, and conventional FR4 circuit boards.”

For $19,500 (or nearly 2/3s) less, of course the MA3 is not quite the sonic equivalent of the DV2 V2, but several reviewers have placed the MA3’s performance very close to its 3x priced brethren and intimated that is sounds better than EMM Labs pre-V2 models.

Additionally, the MA3 includes the circuitry from EMM Labs $5,000 stand-alone NS1 streamer internally, which is not included in the DA2 V2 nor the DV2 V2. Simply connect the MA3 to your router via an Ethernet cable and hear the MA3 at its best using the included MConnect App. Re:Roon, The MA3 is a certified Roon endpoint but does require an external server as a Roon Core processor, which can be had from Small Green Computer for $999 (i5) to $1400:(i7). So under $12k retail all in for the MA3 with full Roon capability and ready to play.

A few like-new MA3s have shown up for sale around $7k. @kray, if you can stretch another $2k, I think you find the MA3 to be a great sounding pedigreed Player/DAC, unmatched by the competition for anywhere near that price..

In closing, I feel sure that the aforementioned Merging Technologies + products (at over twice the retail price of the MA3 including the SGC i7 server) sound great, but I will not speculate on a comparison SINCE I HAVE NOT ACTUALLY HEARD THE CURRENT MERGING + PRODUCTS.

I have had both the Cary 600 and 700. Jack of all trades. But if you just basically just stream the Bricasti M3 w/ network card is a nice step up. They can be found used for 4,000-4,500. 

“I feel sure that the aforementioned Merging Technologies + products (at over twice the retail price of the MA3 including the SGC i7 server)”

To my best knowledge, Merging +player with built in Roon Core / end point retails for $14K. In comparison, the MA3 ($10,500) including the SGC i7 ($1400) server adds up to total retail of $11,900. The SGC i7 does not come with linear power supply, add $285 for LPS plus the cost of a decent Power Cord for LPS. Not to mention, we are now dealing with Ethernet optimization on two separate devices SGCi7 and MA3 as opposed to one.

I am not here to debate what I’ve heard in my system nor here to dispute anyone else perception of what’s deemed to sound best at 1/3 the cost. No two systems are alike not to mention how each individual’s perceives sound :-)

Fortunately, there are so many options to put together a decent digital streaming system. If someone seeking a one box Roon based streaming component with DAC/VC/Headphone Pre, Merging +player deserves a mention. Apart from its superb sonic attributes in my system, Merging +player offers open path to future expansions (external power supply and clock) for SOTA digital playback.

Thanks for all the great feedback here. I have a lot to research based on this. 

I already have Roon Core running on my network so nothing to change there. 

As a couple of you mentioned I might be moving backwards... I've thought about that too. so many options, like do I look at just upgrading my Lumin u1, or possibly taking the next step up in R2R/discete DAC's. 

I don't need to change anything, so why I'm looking mostly used, so I can try a ton of stuff and resell if it doesn't work. The Meitner and t+a do intrigue me though 

I run an Ayre Acoustics QX-5 Twenty streaming DAC with Roon Nucleus Plus with astonishing results!!!

I run a Bricasti M3 with streamer card fed by a Small Green Computer i5 music server running Roon Core.  Could not be happier.  It just all works all the time!!   

“I’m looking mostly used, so I can try a ton of stuff and resell if it doesn’t work.”

@kray

There is a brand new Lumin T2 on Audiogon at almost 30% discount or a used T2 for as low as $2800, well within your price range. https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-t2.html

@lalitk at $2800 the LUMIN T2 is tempting to try. I also researched and really intrigued with your mention of the Merging+player. If I could find a used one ~$6k I’d definitely snap it up to try but looks like they rarely come up used. 
 

@testrun getting a SGC i5 might be my next small step. Could add it to my network rack and move Roon off my Mac mini. 

@kray

Lumin T2 is a easy recommendation since you’re already familiar with Lumin and it has what appears to be an outstanding DAC based on Sabre ESS Pro Dual Chips. Given the used price difference between U1 mini with s/booster and T2, T2 is a no brainer. The thing is, you can weigh in on suggestions made here all day long but won’t truly know which DAC is going to sound best until you start auditioning them in the context of your system.

As far as Merging goes, +player doesn’t show up as often as +nadac (dac only version).

PS Audio DirectStream, DAC with network bridge

@testrun getting a SGC i5 might be my next small step. Could add it to my network rack and move Roon off my Mac mini. 

 

One of the best moves I made was getting my ROONS core off a MAC mini and onto a SGC ST.  It might be a small step but its significant.   I put it in the back of my cabinet  , dont even know it's there.

Unless you’re looking for a big change in sonic character from your current DAC I’d recommend just upgrading the streamer and get more goodness from what you already have.  I don’t think you mentioned what Ethernet and USB cables you’re using, but those make a big difference too while you’re in upgrade mode. 

Lumin D2 is excellent for a streamer/DAC and with one setting you can be up and running with your existing stored library. 
$2300 is list, and “open box deals” might get you 10% off. 

Check out the PS Audio Directstream 

@jwillox I already have a Lumin U1 Mini with LPS, which would be a better streamer portion vs D2, and I love my DAC. If I were going to stay Lumin I'd be looking at T2 or higher. 

Too many choices here :D need to start buying and selling

I went the same route and ended up with a Linn Akurate DSM and have no need to look any further. Is future proof and sounds wonderful. Pricey though but it’s the end game for me.

Thanks @jb505  the Linn has come up a few times and something I should look at. 

Short list:
Bricasti M3
Meitner MA3
Linn Accurate DSM

I do like the fact that the Linn has analog input so I could connect my phono preamp to it. 

I'm sure anyone would sound amazing but I'd vote for the Bricasti for 2 reasons. 1 made in USA and second excellent customer support if ever needed. I love my own M3

You can get an R2R streaming DAC in the form of the Bricasti M21 or M21 Platinum. The M21 includes three distinct digital processing paths: 1/ Sigma-Delta, including DoP, 2/ R2R, 3/ DSD in analog. Roon recognizes it as an endpoint and the network connection is via Ethernet. $16K or $19K, depending on whether you get the standard or Platinum version. Certainly not cheap but not stratospherically-priced and better than most of what is priced higher.

Phil

@rsf507 I'm definitely leaning towards the Bricasti specifically for the reasons you mention. I would have an entire made in usa system including amps and speakers 👍

Not to mention they offer upgrades as well. 

All good either way you decide to go.

I do have HDMI on the Linn so I have my big screen hooked up to it. So when I play a You Tube or Blu-ray concert it comes through my Linn.

Tough choice, but a great list. Enjoy.