Does it annoy you when companies don't show the internals of electronics ?

No, it doesn't bother me.

Really good point to point Will have The components arranged in an almost star pattern, all of them leading radially away from the tube socket.

Classic point to point are the last two pics.

Cheers George

That picture you posted a link too has way too much wire in it, people who know how to point to point wire don't use hardly any wire. 

A neat layout and wiring doesn't always add up to good sound or even reliability,

It certainly adds up to a consistent sound quality, from unit to unit..
https://ibb.co/nsvpQJG

sometimes it even causes hum and noise problems.

The opposite is true with this
https://ibb.co/R2X5tSY

Point to point wired tube gear everything should be at the tube sockets

.Just like this.
https://ibb.co/Z8mN6fP 
https://ibb.co/KWCHD4r

Cheers George

A neat layout and wiring doesn't always add up to good sound or even reliability, sometimes it even causes hum and noise problems. Point to point wired tube gear everything  should be at the tube sockets.

 Good point audio2design 

Or maybe Danny Ritchie is creating FUD?  Are these expensive speakers well reviewed and well regarded? Do most people like how they sound? Maybe their designers know something? ..hmmm

It’s to bad you can’t look under the hood of speakers. Look what poor quality parts Danny Ritchie over at GR Research finds, even when he opens up somewhat expensive expensive speaker. Mind boggling!
I’m in the market for some speakers right now and I’m honestly afraid to spend my hard earned cash on this stuff after watching some of his videos.

Here’s an example: Sonus Faber Venere | Can it be UPGRADED? - YouTube

They were just too lazy to help.

Sure, so why look under the hood when you bought the car so you could drive it?

BTW, I agree with you about looking inside of speakers, which is why I do. Looking at cabinet construction, bracing, drivers, crossover components and wiring can all provide an insight into the quality of construction but is not always a predictor of sonic quality. 

Funny, I thought we were paying for how it sounds. How many have asked for speakers to be taken apart to see what is inside them?  That would tell you more than the inside of most electronics will about how something will sound.

Goodness I am paying for the inside so just show it to me. This topic is simple stuff with no deep thinking needed.  Agon continues to amaze me daily.  I guess that is why I come back.  

More like they're embarrassed, at what in there or looks like

Because there shy.

First, lets assume this isn't a world of Covid 19 and that you have dealers nearby that you can go to and listen.

Taking away from the WAF outside looks, you are listening to the equipment/system first.  If you are happy with that, most times, that is the number one influence.  A lot of us buy from companies that they are already familiar with, so what's inside has to do with your knowledge of that company.  The quality of their work, sound, etc.

When you buy a car, what are you looking for?  Interior, yes, you can see.  But, engine bay?  you can't get past all the plastic covering the engine bay, so you won't see the engine at all.  

Being an Engineer, I like to see internals and also schematics to see the quality of the design and construction.  However, this is not my number one criteria for purchasing.  Sound quality (does it better my existing piece and takes me closer to "there"?), costs, and reputation of the company (do they stand by their equipment?  do they have a solid reputation on repairing their equipment?

I have seen expensive equipment that had just about nothing inside.  A small transformer and circuit board.  Doesn't faze me.  Because, I'm still listening to the equipment first vs what I know or currently own. 

So, no, I'm not annoyed when companies don't show the internals.

enjoy 

Architecture.  I had a Muse Signature 9 CD player decades ago.   It was mediocre sounding, totally inferior to so many other players I tried after I bought it on a recommendation without hearing it (I won't do that again).  It was beautifully constructed.  Assembly is probably the least important although the Muse had a good transport.  However, component quality and assembly count towards longevity of the product.

What has a bigger impact on sound, architecture or components and assembly?

I own four EAR products (use only 2 now).  They are brilliantly designed but use much less than SOTA parts.  All on circuit boards.  So what?  They sound great and are priced well below SOTA comparables.   They have good looks as well.   Using a 50% markup and 50% profit margin, it is difficult to image EAR making much money per unit.  They are built in the UK not China.  Labor costs are significantly higher.   Just remember, like PNB products, the cost is about 25% of the retail price and the manufacturer only gets 25% of the price as their profit.

Point to point.. NO LOGIC BOARDS.. point to point.. There are hybrids too.  EX: VTL  The transformers are wired point to point and the valves are laid out on a heavy trace IC. The new MC275 have PtP on the valves but ICs on the power supply and preamp circuits. Just depends.

When it's done right it looks right and is quiet by design. Short wire legs, good wire, good solder, good parts.. Sounds like a country song.

I like First Watt too. full of WIMAs.. full!! nice lay out though..

Regards

A ratsnet with lead-tin wire or beautiful point to point with lead free. Which will fail first? If you want reliable go back to wire wrap.

It's funny you guys think that a point to point wired rats nest is not reliable, some of the early tube equipment looks like a rats nest and was reliable for over 50 years. Most of the neat point to point wired products aren't truly point to point wired.

...from one who's integrated computers into his audio....

If 'viewing the innards' becomes a 'make or break deal breaker', one could investigate the latest 'n greatest in gaming 'puters.

Now, before you snort & go 'well, that's not real audiophilia', put a pause on...
A lot of the vid games you hear the names of have surround audio that absolutely Requires discrete reproduction so you can hear the opponent that about to blow you away or the critter that'll rip your avatar into bloody shreds.
And the fact that some gamers are spending as much as some of You on case and board tech that includes on-mob lighting, illuminated fans, and plex sides and tops so you can watch the light show.

There exists sophisticated CPU cooling systems for overclocking that approach the cost of a nice pre-amp. When your amp grows a system that rivals your car to keep you from torching your caps, let me know.

Personally, I'm not a 'gamer', But....my vid card Does have it's own fan.  It's right next to my audio card, which I do ask a lot of.

The drivers I modify must have vented pole magnets and Kapton voice coil formers...just because previous drivers without would get hot to the touch.  I'm considering thermal protection because a Walsh makes demands on drivers you may have not been aware of when played Loud.

I don't need a 'light show' from my 'puter; the RT RTA and other displays are more intriguing to watch, esp. the ones from a calibrated mic.

They inform, but entertain in their fashion.... ;)

BTW...amps that create enough heat to 'warm the room' are wasting an enormous amount of energy imho.  Why some of you find that amusing...*shrug*

It's your power bill.  I'd run fans on those heat sinks yesterday.

Happy listening and a good weekend....

teo,

Did you get picked on by an engineer when you were a kid ....or made fun of by one as an adult?


That's some serious baggage you are carrying.

@oldhvymec

That indeed is art. I just wonder how much to replace the shocks?!

If equipment price is $500 and it looks inside like someone shovel up elements and had to step up on top plate to be able to close it, but sound Is like 15k I take it. But if this is opposite I’m not taking it.
 I believe that things like that are possible 😀

Just to be clear I am not saying the dealer has to open it up in front of me...but I'd at least like a picture of the internals (on the website is fine).
Just spoke with space tech labs and asked to see pictures of their internals of their tube linestages and they refused... well I will move on.

Master mahgister, "I’ve sat on this rock so long I have calluses on my butt." and I still can’t hear the difference..

MM replies, "listen peanut brain.. Mouth shut, ears open.. less talk, more though.."

Tap Tap Samba! :-) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< That's all me...

Thanks for the smile....

If all people wre like you all  will be better.... I cannot imitate you very well alas!.

My best to you....

The array of resistors is not likely to fail.

Thanks for your answer...

My best to you....

To be clear (and ramble...), this point is about ’science’. Not ’engineering’--which is a thing that operates under the umbrella of dogma in it’s fundamentals. people get them confused with one another all the time.

I think the same as you on that thanks for your post....

Hmm - potted circuits that you can't see into must drive the OP crazy. Wonder if he demanded that the car dealer drop the oil pan for a look-see before he'd buy a car, or asked his spouse to submit whole body X-rays before agreeing to take them on?  

It all seems a tad silly.....

Master mahgister, "I’ve sat on this rock so long I have calluses on my butt." and I still can’t hear the difference..

MM replies, "listen peanut brain.. Mouth shut, ears open.. less talk, more though.."

Tap Tap Samba! :-) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< That's all me...

Regards..

Yes.  Not "annoyed" but it is a deciding factor for me.  Hope I don't have to but I like to do my own repairs.  If I see any proprietary epoxy modules (secret black boxes) I pass.  Unless they are really inexpensive or given to me.  Otherwise if it sounds good I don't care what it looks like in there.  Not going to get quality sound using cheap inferior parts.

Oldhywmec, 

Where do you get your information ? Your way off your rockers.  

In case you do not understand business, let me explain.  The preamplifier I posted a link to is the Olympia LXi, it has a MSRP of $22K, the dealer gets half of this amount which means we sell them for $11K, if sold into international distribution theres an extra  10% off which means we sell them for $8800 - you try to do this. 

You may not care for the looks, I don't give a RA if you do or not, luckily many people like the sleek "I mean business" Styling.  

Good Listening

Peter

No, I only care how it sounds.

I stay up nights worrying about this.

Apologies, but.. (nothing personal, I’m just having a bit of fun and overstating my case)

That is when art finally overtakes all sensibility in design and just... ruins it.

Worse than a Bugatti Chiron as a ’transformer’ styled monster truck.

I have no words for the sum total seen. Almost speechless. (almost)

Like a train wreck liberally sprayed with poorly glitzified low budget dead hookers.

Like a mack truck crankshaft built out of previously happy now dead butterflies, just cuz it looks cool.

It may be an interesting design, visually, in some ways... sorta..kinda... and a few design points of it are ok regarding ’best’ function, but mostly, just plain off. way... way..... off.

Art shoulda been left at the curb on this one.

Apologies to the designer. See encyclopedic entries on the word ’kitsch’ and how to not do things. See engineering of audio equipment for best quality and attend classes. Please learn something.

I wish I could say more nice-nice. But it’s wrong. It’s all wrong. Eg, a $200 used Arcam alpha integrated is going to be more honest and correct in reproducing music.

This is ART. 2.2 million

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf4gcj8zY28

From a person that loves beautiful things, ME.

I think I’ll order up a couple for the weekend palace in Dubai.

Sultan OldHvyMec. Bring my magic carpet around to rear entrance, my kingdom is waiting..

Regards

Nope

mahgister4,166 posts01-22-2021 12:40am

Lots of failure points ..

I think you are right even if i am interested by this product...

My actual NOS dac is minimalistic.... I chose it for this reason and the price...Correct me if i am wrong but the noise level of a minimalistic design may help or compensate in some measure for the lack of sophistication.... I am very satisfied by my actual dac anyway.... But the denafrips has glowing reviews indeed...

I am pretty sure that you know more than me about dac by the way..... 😁

~~~~~~

The array of resistors is not likely to fail. No thermal stressing. They are central to the design goals or reasons for the DAC being made. In some manner or another, they have to be there. I would do it slightly differently, but that is neither here nor there, regarding basic operational functionality.

Nothing wrong with the resistor array, per se. And we’ve not heard much about failures, have we?

The capacitor arrays, though..could be better considered and better done. But opinions and thinking vary, and that’s a good thing, even if it may grind some.

Too much dogmatic thinking leads to what is eventually circular or curved motions and nothing gets done. There’s no ability to correct the arrow of science when dogma projects control onto science. A place it should not be. Rigor and method? Sure, but dogmatic laws? No.


~~~~~~~~~~
To be clear (and ramble...), this point is about ’science’. Not ’engineering’--which is a thing that operates under the umbrella of dogma in it’s fundamentals. people get them confused with one another all the time.

Eg, even Elon Musk decided to address that point about two weeks back (via twitter). That is he not a rocket scientist, he’s a rocket engineer. To clarify that there is no such thing as a rocket scientist. Like bridges, you don’t build rockets with ’theories’. You build rockets with facts, as they are tough enough already! Research: "The tyranny of the rocket equation." Space is hard because rockets are barely viable.

Scientists work with theories, which can change, they are mutable, correctable, changeable, amenable to new data, new hypothesis, new projections.... and then to proof them out. to make ’facts’. things that are ’relatively constant’, as... We don’t’ know. We never have known. We logically cannot know.. We can only theorize. Facts don’t exist, only theories exist. The quantum riddle of reality is writ large across science.

But.. to attempt scientific rigor...To make ’facts’ (math, formulas, constants, etc), for the bulk of humanity which possesses dogmatic minds. For the engineers..as engineers work with facts. To make safe functional ’things’. If engineers begin to experiment to gain new ground... then they are acting like scientists, in some regards. 

Note how ubiquitous that the term ’rocket scientist’ has become. It’s a total misnomer. Fundamentally incorrect. It illustrates how much people project and filter in permanence (some mindsets) or as 'dogma' in their fundamental thinking processes. A hugely damaging innate slowing/blocking filter in the progression of science.

Dogmatic thinking is innate to the concept of space-time and atomic aggregates, as we know it... or innate to how we filter ourselves into being... though the mechanism of mind... as tied to the atomic reality and relativity we live collectively in and though. (the animal basis and side of the fundamentals/projection of 'human consciousness' in the relative world and relative reality) 

Science says the same as the sex pistols regarding too much dogmatic mindset trying to control and corrupt science: 'No future, no future'....

Maybe they "just" have a proprietary design that they don't want their competitors to copy.  Think of that!

Accuphase and luxman internals are incredible.

That me no clue.. 39K - 49K for a SS.. LOL. You’re out of your mind.. plain and simple.. I know EXACTLY what I was looking at..

10k max.. For the pair.. Sorry. to hurt your feelings.. I’d take a Pass any day at what 1/8, 1/5 the price.. GET REAL... like paying 5-20K for cables.. just a friggin’ joke.. Good lord.. I have to look myself in the mirror in the morning.. 49k for an amp..

George had a nice pic of a point to point..Yours looks BIG, clumsy, thick.. Sorry.. it may be complicated, sound wonderful, but ART, visually it is NOT... Reminds me of older VTL.. the same BIG clumsy, gaudy look.

I owned Sumos.. LOL, I’ll bet close in design.. fully differential analog. WAY ahead of its time.. I paid 5K for a hand made Preamp and dual monoblocks.. Gaudy as all heck.. Sounded better than any thing I’d ever heard..
James B swore by them.. Ampzilla.. He modded mine.. 2K.... 7K total.. 15 years ago. 49K for an amp.. NO....

BUT I’m sure it sound good.. Kinda like the homely little lady that won the singing competition, I couldn’t look and listen.. she was to darn ugly to tell the truth..

Just like my cousin Ed.. Kinda thick.. Like your amps.. have I pissed off the Pope yet? LOL.. I’m just kidding, kinda. :-) They are just fine.. but that price, Zowee.. What is it German, it can’t be Italian, they are outward artist, ALL the way? They BOTH love the HUGE price tags, just one is Art, one is German...like a Super Tiger Tank is ART?   LOL I don't think so..

Regards..

Both my amps (one tube, one solid state) are point to point and handmade.  The artisans who made them enjoy showing off the guts.

Both adhere to Einstein's "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler" philosophy.

There are proprietary tricks in both to enable them to sound like nothing you can buy off the shelf, so showing them presents some risk to reverse engineering.

However it would take someone with an intimate knowledge of electrical engineering to figure out exactly what the tricks actually are (and then they would say "well that's not what the books tell me how it should be done").

Lots of failure points ..

I think you are right even if i am interested by this product...

My actual NOS dac is minimalistic.... I chose it for this reason and the price...Correct me if i am wrong but the noise level of a minimalistic design  may help or compensate in some measure for the lack of sophistication.... I am very satisfied by my actual dac anyway.... But the denafrips has glowing reviews indeed...

I am pretty sure that you know more than me about dac by the way..... 😁

I love the question. I personally want to see what's under the "hood." I'm into audio restoration from a home studio so gear has to be good quality but at a good value. The craze in my other hobby is tempered glass PC cases which shows internals and lights. Window shopping had always been a thing. 

If the manufacturer doesn't show internal photos or enough angles, I check YouTube, Google, forums ect. It's all part of extensive ocd research that takes a lot of hours. It's kinda like marriage, a pretty face shows no credit history. I may not know exactly what I'm looking at but to me well laid out means well thought out. A British audiophile is a YouTube channel I follow because the inside and tech are explained.

Everyone is different but when I get into a hobby, I like to know the nuts and bolts. I would hate to be sold an off the shelf solution at a ridiculous markup.

Like I said, take my opinion with a grain of salt since I'm new to this but I'm not new to audio. I also don't like to have what many others have 😁. Long form descriptive writing I love but a photos talk where words fail. I'm also someone who likes virtual factory tours.

Good topic, I'm done rambling

Oldhvymec 

You obviously have no fing clue as to what your looking at.  I assume you are referring to the Volume Control ? Which is a fully balanced relay based attenuator.  Perhaps put on your spectacles and give it a closer look.

Good Listening
Peter 

I know nothing about electronics, but when I first went about acquiring some higher end equipment, I read a lot of reviews.  What settled me on the Parasound A21, besides the price and the good reviews, was when I saw the top off and saw the inside. I thought it looked so nice, so well made, that I had to have it.  I would like to get a Plexiglas top to show it off.

Generally, it doesn't bother me to not see inside, unless I might want to buy it. I like to see neat layouts, as it suggests the thing was carefully made. 

OP, as you know I am a big fan of CODA and Pass, they both LOVE to show off their internals and don't make a fuss when you pop the hood. Also Denafrips like to show you their underwear. I am of the opinion when it comes to women and hifi, date the ones that aren't shy about being naked.

Actually very simple. If it is well laid out, it is repairable. A rats nest, maybe. Stuffed circuit boards aren’t bad unless are direct mounted, then need to replace whole board if can. Point to point is not easier than have glass epoxy boards 

Look at the care Luxman takes with the wiring of their integrated amps and you can guess the same level of care was applied to the rest of the product. If the wiring of a competitors integrated amp looks like it's spaghetti that's likely a tell.about the rest of its composition. Which would you bet on for reliability for example. 

As an analogy, if you are doing any home remodeling and you see the electrical systems looks like a mess in a similar fashion, it would be surprising the rest of the homes construction was not of the same poor quality. That's not to say the power at the outlets didn't work the same for either a neat or a sloppy wiring system when you plug in your vacuum cleaner. 

Mike