What we like and how something sounds is unique and personal, and every room and situation is different, so is a bit difficult to predict what you’ll like. I’d expect a significant upgrade in overall sound quality and refinement from a change to higher end gear such as you described, but there’s no guarantee you’ll like every aspect. Speakers and room typically have the most impact, but at some level all of it matters. Placement and setup are important with any system, but likely more so with a higher end system to truly unleash all the potential. At some point you’ll also reach diminishing returns per dollar spent, either with the gear, and/or what you’ll appreciate...only you can determine where that line is.
I assume the room will be the same, so if untreated or problematic, the higher end gear may have untapped potential that gets masked, but if should give you more incentive to keep plugging away at the gremlins and weak links of your system. ...Audio can be as much of a journey as it is a destination...sometimes a life long journey without a clearly known ending, so enjoy the trip.
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As I read the pluses/minuses of each piece, I wonder if it only matters once you reach a certain level. Hypothetically, if going from Sony, Marantz, Schiit am I going to find something that I don't like about Pass Labs, Conrad Johnson, Coda?
I think if a guy has a $500 cd player and $1000 speakers, he will still appreciate the upgrade from a $500 Sony receiver to any of those amplifiers, yes. What you are not going to like with those amps is the mass.
And then when funds permit upgrading source or transducers will be even more noticeable and appreciated with the quality amplification.
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I doubt you would find issues with higher end gear compared to Sony, etc but if you upgrade one piece at a time, a better piece of gear may make shortcomings in other parts of your system more noticeable.
How much do want to spend when it's all said and done? Are you planning to upgrade the entire system now, or one piece at a time?
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I would be upgrading one piece at a time. 3K-5K per. My question was more of a hypothetical. I can't imagine buying Mcintosh amp/preamp without audition and thinking this isn't an improvement over the current gear.
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Hi, I grew up with with mid Fi in the 70’s. When I stopped I had a Sansui 9090 and JBL’s , Pioneer TT and a mediocre cassette deck. Years later I got the bug and did a mid Fi surround system , Yamaha , Klipsch, Oppo. About 10 years ago I wanted to get back into stereo. The first issue is the lack of audio shops. I’m near Fresno and the county population is over a million and we have a single Magnolia at Best Buy. So at first I went back to the stuff I left off with in the 70’s and early 80’s. I found out that gear didn’t sound as good as I remembered it. I tried to revisit the Dynaco stuff I had as a kid and was not satisfied. Given the lack of any ability to audition locally , I did a lot of internet browsing and took a few estimated guesses. I got back into tubes with a little Had Inspire amp, a Rogue RP-1 pre and Zu omens. I moved up in DAC’s to a Schiit Yiggy and a Innuos Mini streamer. Tube prices were still reasonable so I spent about $2500 rolling tubes. I’ve had a great time and a satisfactory learning curve. Today I’m moving up again with a pair of freshly serviced and modded Rogue M-180 Dark’s and a Rogue Hera pre. So once again I need speakers and there’s nowhere to go. I’ve received some great advise but to spend $5-10k on new/ used speakers leaves me in that position again. I’m finally to the point where I must go out and audition. So I guess it’s off to LA or some other big city. Looking back at my mistakes I should have attended audio shows and sought more advise on equipment compatibility and synergy. Also understanding how given speakers interact with my room and certain amps. I really miss the old days of walking into a store and auditioning multiple systems and getting experienced advise. But I always remember that it’s as much the destination as the journey. I wish you a happy experience and hope you meet some great people as I have. Regards , Mike B.
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one piece at a time and huge jumps? You won't hear much of a difference first
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Good question. But I would look at it differently. First, sound is tailored by high end companies very carefully. While consumer products are designed around cheap subcomponents and lots of features to put in the marketing material. So, the sound in high end equipment is carefully crafted to have a house sound. MacIntosh, Boulder, Luxman, and Audio Research all have house sounds. Then they refine these sounds the higher up the ladder of their products to sound better of that flavor.
Second is you will need to match your tastes to the company that produces the sound that matches your taste. So, for instance if I liked just rock and have my chest feel the impact of kick drums... I would pick MacIntosh and B&W. But if I was into Jazz and classical I would pick something completely different.
It took me a long time to learn what I wanted, and in the process changes what I liked. So, first order research that I would recommend is to listen to music. The kind you like, live. For me I went to acoustic jazz clubs and the symphony. That is because I didn’t just like rock, but all kinds of music. The best thing to do is to set your objectives on fidelity to the real thing, and all electronic music is unverifiable. So, learn what acoustic music should sound like... unless you only like Rock or only electronic.
The issue with just looking for what sound good is that while it is easy. To just go for detail and slam... as they are easy to sense. They are like the salt and fat in junk food. You can end up with a sparkling system that kicks ass, but has completely lost the emotional connection, the thing the draws you to live music. You can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a "sound spectacular" system, but that you can get bored with after listening for 45 minutes because it has no soul. While a musical system can captivate you for hours. So, before you buy, get out and listen to a real piano... jazz club, symphony. Then do research and listen to equipment.
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I made a jump in audiophilia around 25 years ago similar to what the OP is about to do.
I disagree about changing everything at once in order to note differences. The issue there will be identifying which change did what. I would do one category at a time and give at least a month of listening before moving on to something else. Usually the first place to start is with speakers because once that is done right then it’s easier to assess other changes.
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Hypothetically, if going from Sony, Marantz, Schiit am I going to find something that I don’t like about Pass Labs, Conrad Johnson, Coda?
Oh hell yes. :)
I think that our industry pushes you to upgrade based on perceived value ($$$) instead of your hearing.
Instead of asking yourself what is better according to some rag, go out and listen and ask "what is this sound worth to me?" You end up with a better balanced view of not just what the value of equipment is but who YOU are as a listener and what YOU enjoy. Of course I have my brand darlings, but they are MY darlings. If you hear them and you don't like them, what difference does it make to you what I like, recommend or have waxed romantic about here? Same for reviews and the brand machines out there.
Audiophiles who have given up upgrading for the sake of upgrading and have realized what they like and what sounds good for themselves end up happier and wealthy. :)
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You can absolutely upgrade from midfi to hifi tier and not like the result. There are matters of synergy and taste at play. Look at the used market! Lots of high end gear getting constantly shuffled around. Lots of mid and low tier gear too, and some of those sellers may be trying to reach for the next tier for satisfaction :)
However, higher tier components get to remove budget constraints in their design and implementation. This allows changes that matter....and some that probably don’t (cosmetics). But IF it was engineered well and voiced right and synergizes well with your system...it can be magic. If you get one of these components to elevate your system, it will probably hype you up to go buy more high-tier components...which you may experience mixed results with :P
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There is truth in all of the above posts. There is singular path on this journey, there will likely be regressive, lateral and hopefully progressive moves, I've certainly experienced this. For me its been a long slow journey, I began by listening to lots of live concerts and audio systems at dealers and shows, In doing this I developed a reference for preferred presentation and how hifi differed from live sound, this not a planned thing, really didn't know a thing about high end audio at this point. Alongside this purchases of equipment, started off relatively low end, progressed through mid grade and on. Having heard my references for high end audio early in the game, and of course new ones continually popped up I only knew my own system wasn't up to the task which drove me to continually upgrade to the point where I now have the system I always strove to have. This was a decades long journey for me, I suppose today's audiophiles have it easier in some ways, harder in others. Easier in that so much knowledge to be gained via interwebs, harder in that who knows what info is good or applies to my situation and many fewer dealers, I spent a lot of time, learned a lot from dealers and reps at shows.
As for addressing your specific question, generally we're reaching for ever greater resolution/transparency in our systems, as others have mentioned this is likely to uncover weak link elsewhere which in turn means addressing that weak link, and this can go on and on. Recently I saw a youtube video from some audio show where a panel of 'experts' questioned the audience about their efforts to attain ever higher levels of resolution/transparency and their level of happiness with the results. Most raised their hands when asked if they were frustrated/unhappy with their present situation. What this says may seem pretty disheartening to many, I'll just say don't expect it to be easy, I've been pretty OCD over the years. On the other hand, who can say, every person unique, contentment may be found far more easily for some than others.
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Meant to say NO singular path.
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I agree that changing a single component in a system may, although not necessarily, noticeably alter the sound. For my first post-college system, I visited stereo stores in Anchorage. (During the pipeline construction years, lots of folks had some extra bucks, and there were several audio stores.) I couldn’t afford what I really wanted, but bought a Garrard turntable, an Onkyo receiver, and ADS 710L speakers. Being a buy-and-hold kind of guy, only several years later did I swap out the Onkyo for an Adcom integrated. The improvement was significant. More than several years later and after adding a Sony ES disc player, I traded the ADS speakers for Harbeth M30s (which I still use daily). Again, great improvement. Then I traded the Adcom for a Classe, even better yet. Then the Classe went kaput, and I bought a wyred4sound integrated, which I think is the best so far.
Now, I heard improvements but my choices haven’t been true high-end. But they have given my wife and I decades of pleasure. And I’ve enjoyed the process of making changes when I have. My hearing has diminished, and I don’t know whether my approach would give satisfactory results, given higher costs for audio equipment, especially speakers, which in theory are due for an upgrade.
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It is very hard to describe in words aural phenomenon, which is one reason why reviewers are constantly seeking better (and often more hyperbolic) adjectives. "Mid-Fi" and "high end" are gross labels that don’t tell us much: in the era of late 60s to early 70s you might more easily characterize a mid-fi system as one which consisted of a receiver, a pair of bookshelf type speakers and a modest turntable, compared to separate preamp, basic power amp and turntable that allowed the installation of a separate arm (often made by a different company). These days, some lower cost hi-fi equipment sounds worlds better than its equivalent from 50 years ago-- solid state is much better sounding, to my ears, than it was in the early ’70s.
It’s very hard to predict what a given set up will sound like in the abstract, leaving aside listener preferences. There’s the room to consider, and how the equipment is set up within a given space with its acoustic characteristics. Some of this is science and some is art. If I had to describe what a "high end" system would sound like in the abstract, compared to something lesser (and this isn’t necessarily measured by price or brand name) it would be: a more natural "flow" to the music without sounding "reproduced" or "played at you,"; a slowing down of the proceedings--which may be partly psychological, where there is more "space" between the instruments, both in terms of timing and physical placement in the presentation; front to back "depth" as well as the harmonic decay "envelope" (from attack to the gradual diminishment of overtones that linger and fade) and an ability to "decode" information in a way that isn’t analytical or clinical sounding, but makes your brain "work less" to imagine the illusion of a real performance. If you know what a real instrument sounds like, say, the piano, you need a recording that has effectively captured it (not easy in my experience) to hear what a good system can do in reproducing it effectively, from the "growl" of the lower registers to the sparkle and ethereal quality of the upper notes and the harmonics that can linger as each new note is struck.
Each of us has an imagined "ideal" for good sound. I’ve heard a lot of systems, big and small, in homes and studios, over the course of more than five decades. Some of the big expensive systems fail and other more modest equipment just "gels" in the room, producing a convincing illusion. Part of this too is that you are evaluating a "system," not just a series of components.
When I got serious about this hobby in the early ’70s- the Quad loudspeaker combined with tubes and a good turntable was eerie. It has considerable limitations in terms of bandwidth, dynamics and the ability to play "loud." But it is still a reference for midrange, which is where most of the action is. (I have a vintage system set up that replicates what I was running in the mid-70s that is based on the Quad Loudspeaker).
By contrast, my main system can play louder, deeper, has a similar "see through" midrange and does not suffer from the some of the limitations of the vintage system. Yet both are musical and very natural sounding.
I had an industry person here a year ago who wanted to listen to some test pressings of a sound track and kept asking me to "turn it up." He was listening for nits-- although my main system is more revealing than the vintage one (the latter being somewhat forgiving), neither system is "forensic" in its sound. He would have been far better off in a studio with big JBLs being driven by a lot of power (I use single ended triodes), to hear these pressings as if under a microscope. That’s not what I’m chasing; instead, it is about a quality of realism of instruments in the room.
Since I have two dedicated rooms here, the problem is largely one of space and scale. There is only so much I can crank the big system before it overloads the room. Thus, I cannot produce the scale of a large orchestra in a 2,800 seat auditorium, though I can produce a very convincing illusion of one in my room, given its size (roughly 31 x 14, narrowing like a horn mouth toward the front wall).
The real measure of this is going to be your ears and your listening experience. Get seat time; hear some top systems and what is possible. Work from there as a reference point, recognizing that sonic memory is a tricky thing.
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I would very strongly recommend if you're at the beginning of a system building journey to go out and do some listening. Finding a good dealer who's sound you like is a good way to avoid a lot of sidegrades.
If no dealers are near you maybe hit some audio shows at this level it's worth doing a bit of traveling to hear stuff. And take your time upgradeitits can be a heady condition but the more you know and hear the better decisions you will make.
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Upgrading components one at a time is a good philosophy, but you won't recognize transformative sound all at once; one component will not fix all ills. Just make sure that you don't limit future purchases with an inferior purchase, save the money if you can't yet afford what you want......don't be impatient. That would have saved me a few thousands of dollars along the way.
Go to a great audio show would be my first recommendation; Axpona, Capital Audiofest, Rocky Mountain, Pacific Audiofest, Southwest Audio Show. You'll get to hear hundreds of pieces of gear, get to talk to some great folks, and get a lot of questions answered....most everyone (not all) want to be helpful
If not, then find some dealers with products you are looking for.
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Personal experience is to begin with a 'practical' Integrated as the 1st course; a receiver if you must. Try to use it to listen to as many types of speakers you accept as better than your current....
Consider used as means of stretching the buck$....save the rest for the second course, when you can play with room acoustics and room eq tricks... ;)
Good luck and Have Fun @ It.
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If they don't matter, then why bother?
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Great discussion! Everyone's audio journey is different---I started getting into hifi in the 80s (and still have the equipment). But I've also built 2 other systems along the way. One is my reference system and one is an 'experimental' system. Some pieces I bought just on reviews alone--others pieces I auditioned. Thankfully, a new hifi store recently opened up in town and the owner is very generous about letting me take pieces home to audition. I've bought a few things from him so far. Somethings that I thought were going to blow me away (based on reviews online) did nothing for me. I'm even more surprised when something lets me down sometimes vs blowing me away. Good luck and keep us posted.
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But I've also built 2 other systems along the way. One is my reference system and one is an 'experimental' system.
@bluorion I also have this kind of 2-system setup now, and it's extremely helpful for evaluating components.
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1. I see the separation between mid-fi and high end as being more about philosophy & voicing than price. Companies like Schiit & First Watt make cosmetic & economic compromises to produce gear with more than a whiff of high end performance.
2. There is actually MORE variation in system sound in the high end. Mid fi systems tend to use the same tried-and-true cost-effective designs, whereas high end companies will go to extreme lengths to achieve their voicing standards. Horns, electrostats, planars, ribbons, field coils, tubes, GAN FETs, R2R, FGA, etc. are all capable of making significant differences in your system.
3. I also highly recommend listening to live music, for its own merits. If you love the sound of unamplified instruments, they will set the standard you seek with your sound system.
4. Many of the responses here are from those who have made a long journey. Don't be intimidated by their stories! Go listen to as many systems as you can. Buy the speakers you like best & can afford. Build your system around them and enjoy! If you like them enough, you might not need to go through another full system upgrade for decades. Of course, you probably will need to do the occasional technology upgrade.
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I found that not every piece of equipment I tried went well with my system and made it sound better as I’ve upgraded from a combination system to separate components over time. Suggest working with a local dealer(s) depending on what’s available near you or online with vendors that will let you buy, try and return for little no fee. The only way you’ll know is to try in your room with your equipment in my experience. Trust your ears as you decide and stay within your budget. There is so much great equipment being made these days. Enjoy your ongoing musical journey!
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Thanks for all the responses. I'm going to plan on hitting T.H.E Show in Costa Mesa this June. Just up the road from North County San Diego.
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Where does one draw the line between Mid-fi and Hi-fi?
I live 10 miles due north of T.H.E. Show and you are welcome to come by and hear how good a 14 year old Oppo BDP-95 through 23 year old Yamaha RX-Z9 and "home made" 30-40+ year old JBL/AMT speakers can sound. I designed the speakers for the room over countless years and iterations of crossover development and can put the band right in the room with you. Total investment was <$6,000 and I purchased the Yamaha new back in 2002 ($4,500 less 10% back then). Receiver now has over 30,000 hours on it and still functions as new.
Both the RECEIVER and Oppo are run in "Pure Direct" mode and there is no eq or room compensation, electronic or physical used for music.
Would any of this be considered as Hi-end"??? I doubt it!
BUT!!! I attended T.H.E. Show last year and this puts most of what I heard at 10 times the cost to shame. Talk about a "disappearing act"...
You are certainly welcome to come by for a listen.
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Can't respond to your message because I won't give Audiogon a credit card number..., but get hold of me when the show gets close and give me an email address. I probably won't go this year because I'll be doing a garden railroad open house display for the Club and public that weekend.
https://youtu.be/jQ6rcU1Vbwo
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I have several systems set up. A mid-fi TV surround sound setup, a vintage tube Dynaco one, a utility system with Fosi Audio and Bellari bits, and my “good” stereo, which until recently had a CJ SS preamp, a Schiit SS power amp, and Pro-Ject phono preamp. I have speakers of my own construction using Dayton and Morel components. I wasn’t loving it as much as I thought I should, so I recently bought a Quad 33 and 303…liked by Steve Guttenberg and other on-line pundits. My listening pleasure has improved greatly and my system is considerably simpler now. I also transitioned all my fancy unbalanced interconnects to cheap balanced XLR ones from WBC (Canare cable). Between the Quad’s unusual Tilt and Bass controls and the Schiit Lokius eq I can listen at moderate levels with tremendous clarity and what seems to be tonal naturalness. These components sell for an unusually reasonable price for the quality they offer. If the power is not enough, the amps are bridgeable. The phono preamp isn’t as flexible as the Pro-Ject, but sounds fine with all my cartridges.
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