Yeah that sound more Italian the Faber...
Do different speaker stands can really make a big sound improvement?
I am looking for stands for my new Harbeth P3ESR XD speakers and wonder how much improvement one can actually hear between close to a $1000 stands and a $100 one filled with sand?
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Wow ,akg....My short response must have been painful for you to read Sorry about that,but I have a right to answer a question .I grew up I'm Astoria and hung out on Steinway St..The neighborhood owes alot to the Steinway Company.Enjoy your summer .Listen to some great music on your system....Harbeth only wishes it could produce a product as good as a Steinway Piano ,best in the world hands down....Take care. |
Your pontification that speaker stands are built like Steinway pianos is dead wrong and patently ridiculous. Nobody said that nor did anybody intimate anything of the sorts Rather, go back and reread what was actually posted, . What WAS presented was that HARBETH has thin-walled speaker box cabinets that facilitates a certain resonance capabilities in its bespoke cabinet box design. The lightweight open design speaker stands are complimentary there to maximize the box design to address unwanted damping and muddying of the midrange ….that assist with energy dissipation of the cabinet box design to do its job. In detail: HARBETH speakers incorporate the thin-walled speaker design made famous by the BBC. The cabinets are thinner and lighter than most speakers of their size, allowing for some movement of the cabinet with very specific and strategic damping, rather than an attempt to damp all-around. ….. = you have an intentionally more resonant speaker (the thin-walled SPEAKER BOX as a whole alone is gently resonant in the context function of a piano or violin soundboard …. Not the speaker stands.) Speakers from Harbeth and Spendor, et al, pioneered the use of deliberately thin-walled plywood cabinets with minimal damping of individual panels. Using that approach, the English companies were able to keep energy storage reasonably low, and the effects of cabinet resonances could be minimized by spreading them out among many low-amplitude points. “Let’s accept that we cannot dispose of all that energy," designer and owner Alan Shaw continues. "Instead, let’s steer it away from where it’s acoustically objectionable—the mid frequencies—down to where it’s not objectionable—the very low frequencies—and make the box [walls] thin, and manipulate those resonances by adding mass and damping the panels, and pull it all down to the bottom. So, you’ve got this extremely clean midband and this sort of warm, involving low end, which is ideal for some music." The role of preferred speaker stands for HARBETH are to simply assist to mimimize unwanted damping and energy dissipation issues by the box design. TONTRAEGERs employ "extended tenons" atop each column, which are said to "allow direct absorption of cabinet resonances and decouple the speaker from the ground." (The quotes are from fidelisav.com.) th IIndividual "ToneBeds"—oval hollows on top of the tenons—are said to "prevent vibration bridges";
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@audiopoint Your statement is factual and I have always found that the stands that is designed by the same manufacture to more beneficial is respect to sound quality, than any aftermarket stand. The mechanic's are often overlooked. This review touches on this. https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2020/12/18/sonner-audio-legato-unum-loudspeaker-review/ |
I could suggest a material for a Speaker Stand that will be beneficial material if the support structure to be produced from it is produced to be vert rigid structure. Before considering different materials for a Speaker Support, the Support Plinth itself for the Speaker Stands when done correct, will bring substantial sonic improvements. As DIYer I find multi tier plinths to be able to really allow the Speakers Cabinetry to get out of the way, in relation to influencing the end sound. |
I use Sound Anchors with my P3esr speakers. The stands helped focus the sound and improved imaging. I changed out the floor spikes with round headed carriage bold to avoid punching holes in my composite vinyl flooring (selected for acoustical damping; the flooring is on solid concrete). The speakers sit on small sorbothane pads on the corners. With the carriage bolts installed I can drag out the speakers for a near-field experience when I want to, which increased involvement at the expense of a slight inconvenience. |
Did You Know? Physics dictates that the stand supporting any loudspeaker establishes a mechanical relationship combining material science, geometry, and mass to functionality. This marriage impacts the sonic performance of the loudspeaker. The stand and speaker are linked to perform as a single vibrating entity. The same holds for floor-borne speaker systems and plinths or platforms. The speaker stand is the difference maker. It determines how much or how little one hears and benefits from their loudspeaker. Locke Highleyman, ME Live-Vibe Audio
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Harbeth uses a lossy cabinet design, not a resonant one. If you think differently, I suggest you pull a woofer or drop the front panel and check out the bituminous damping pads attached to the cabinet walls. I assure you, they do not ring like a Steinway. That said, the recommended stands should be of the proper height, open design, and not couple the speaker box to the stand - use BluTak putty or small Sorbothane hemispheres at the far corners of the top plate to mount the speakers. Personally, I like the Pangaea 300 series with some autobody undercoat sprayed inside each tube to dampen them. They work well and are not egregiously priced. Mounting the speakers that way will allow the lossy, thin wall Harbeth cabinets to perform as intended. They have also worked well with my LS-50s high-mass cabinets at the 28" leg length. |
Here you go...in white oak these look to be TonTrager'ish, and a good deal. |
I always thought that important purpose of the stands is to remove vibration from the speakers themselves from the floor. But if we consider that the problem is also that vibration from the stands is transmitted back to the speakers, then it is logical that the heavier the stands, the better. However, my speakers sounded fine both with metal stands not filled with sand, and with stands made of heavy MDF. I have Buchardt S400 MK2 speakers, the original stands of which are just three thin wooden sticks. But I installed them on Q Acoustics Concept 20 stands, because they are heavier than the speakers themselves and have an anti-resonance design like their speakers of this series, thinking that it would be better. I also added sorbothane spacers between the columns and the stands. I am happy with the result. Of course, my system is far from high-end and changes of this level may not be audible on it at all. Experiment for a start simply with the weight of the stands, find something heavier than the speakers and something lighter and compare. If heavy ones are better, then it makes sense to select the material based on damping properties. If not, leave the light ones made of wood, the design will be beautiful. Well, the main purpose of the stands is to allow you to place the speakers not on a shelf, but in the correct way. |
Yes they do. Check to see if Resonant Woods of New Hampshire is back in business (they were without a wood shop last time I checked which was 1 year ago). They are similar and high quality but a bit cheaper than TT. Proper joinery / quality wood work is expensive and like or not, buying the appropriate stands for your Harbeth's is the price of entry. Comparisons with other speaker brands / stands is irrelevant.
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When I bought my ProAc Response 2's 25 years ago, they came with matching custom-made MDF stands that looked wonderful but sounded awful. I finally found a used pair of Sound Anchors, and it wasn't until then that I was able to stop fiddling with the speakers and really enjoy them. There's no question in my mind that speaker stands make an enormous difference. Personally I would take the manufacturer's recommendations seriously if at all possible in terms of space and available funds. It would strike me as very odd if a company as old and reputable as Harbeth were promoting "snake oil" solutions. They have every interest in making sure their customers hear their products at their best. |
Not sure if Mitch2 was being sarcastic, but he had a definite point when he mentioned that a real audiophile would suspend the speakers from the ceiling with springs. Well, I was a real audiophile when in college in the mid 1970’s and had a girlfriend who was quite the macrame artist. She wove for me harnesses for my EPI 100 bookshelf speakers made with eight ropes to hang them from the ceiling. With 2 ropes per corner the speakers were securely nested so much that I could tilt the speaker back and forth for proper time alignment of the woofer and the tweeter. The improvement in openness and soundstaging was enormous by the standards of the day. For about the price of a 12 pack. FYI the source was a Thorens TD124 with Empire 980 arm I bought for $20 from a radio station converting to tape cartridges, and an Ortofon VMS 20E cartridge. Amps were all tube, a Dynaco PAS 3X preamp and the matching Stereo 70 as a power amp. I really miss that system… |
Of course they make a difference, cables make a difference, weather, humidity, everything matters. You can spend enormous amounts of money building the perfect listening room with all the perfect gear and accessories then you walk in the room and screw up the sound just by being there. Many companies and people make quite a bit of money selling dreams, they only have to convince would be buyers that their products are so much better than any others, fancy words, pretty pictures and unsubstantiated claims is all it takes to convince someone who wants to waste money. All kinds of ocean front property has been sold in Arizona as well as several bridges, I'm off to buy the Brooklyn to go along with my Golden Gate. |
roadcykler, If you think speaker stands and cables make no difference you really need to get your ears checked because the Townshend podiums make such a huge difference because they stop all vibration from going into the speaker, It's like you upgraded to more expensive electronics and the same with cables, OCC single crystal is the best conductor for audio and it's been proven for over 50 years, far superior to anything cheap OFC. |
I really REALLY didn’t want speaker stands to make a difference. I am in the business of demoing speakers for studios and such so I need to know as studios (like users at home) use all kinds of crazy things to put speakers on. Cardboard boxes, wooden crates, plastic bins, thin metal plant stands from Target, you name it. Well after years of trying to disprove it, Ive given up. It’s one of the biggest variables in the demo. You need high mass under a stand to get it to sound its best. I then went after Sound Anchor to use and rep in the US because that’ the only one Ive found universally works. I wish it wasn’t so. It isn’t hard to hear, but it is hard to set up a good comparison of removing all variables other than the stands. You need a large room, plenty of space to put both stands in exactly the same spot. But there is a significant difference in bass, imaging, etc between a a high mass stand and low mass one. My experiments have left me with the clear result that the stand matters more than the spikes or what comes between the stand and the floor. It’s not that these other things don’t matter, they do, it’s just the stand itself matters more.
There are ways around it, I know a mastering engineer who does very high level work that built a large wooden box (same dimensions as the speaker itself in width) to get the speakers up to the ear level height and then filled it with play sand. That box is unmovable now and probably weighs 500 pounds. Sounds extremely good in his room. |
Either purchase open top skeletal stands (like Harbeth rec's) or raise the speakers from solid top stands with something "like" the tenons depicted in the above post. Four smaller points of hard contact instead of placing the bottom of the speaker on a solid plate which would effectively dampen it. Harbeth and others use lossy cabinet designs (Google it).
DeKay |
In a good system, any changes will make a noticeable difference. Be it speaker stands, rack material, type of spikes or never spiking, AC outlets, even the wall plates, type of room your system is in, and its acoustics with treatment (best bang for the buck) not to mention power cords that can make as big of a difference as a new piece of gear. Then of course all types of conditioners will change the sound, as well as the room temperature and humidity, so the more complicated your system the more factors you finally hear when sitting down and listening to your system which is why any reviews are only an opinion of what that speaker or gear sounded in that room with their gear etc. TAS does not exist, what does is the sound and taste of the coloration that makes your system so enjoyable. |
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All speaker stands have a pronounced effect on the speakers presentation. Some speakers work better with low mass stands and others with heavy high mess stands. Unless there is documented results from users as there is with Harbeth speakers, it is a matter of experimentation with your particular speakers. |
As @akg_ca states, Harbeth’s are built with flexible speaker walls designed to resonate. It’s the whole idea…not to dampen things. it makes the speakers rich and lively sounding. Not necessarily accurate but more like approximation of sounds of live music. Thus, a non-rigid stand is in keeping with the design approach. |
The list of frivolous stuff that audiophiles convince themselves as making a meaningful sonic difference seems endless. I don't understand how a flimsy stand would improve the sound of a speaker with a flimsy cabinet (Stradivarius, yeah right). Use a solid stand, play with the footers if anything, and let your speakers sound how they sound. Of course, a real audiophile would suspend them from the ceiling using springs. |
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- why? - because the HARBETH speakers cabinet design is a bespoke and unique very thin-walled cabinet design, that resonates like the sound board on a Stradivarius violin, or a Steinway grand piano. HARBETH recommends an “open” and “airy” speaker stand design like the TT’s with their bespoke dimpled tonebeds and extended tenons to facilitate this . I have the M30.2XD’s ….
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I’ve used the Pangea DS-400 4 post stand when I owned that speaker. I never filled it with anything! https://www.audioadvisor.com/search-results/?q=pangea+ds+speaker+stand BTW, if you want to fill the stands this product is a great filler! Traeger 20 lb. Bag Signature Blend All-Natural Wood Grilling Pellets PEL331 - The Home Depot
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