Disappointing On Mcintosh......help

For those needing support for older Mac gear I strongly suggest Randy Vikan - his business is Elite Audio Tech in Key Center, WA

he masterfully keeps my 1961 and 1965 MC gear pristine, making spec and sounding great :-) super attention to detail !!!

This thread is interesting. Are people full of crap  or something? Mac amps are as neutrel as can be, they don’t color the sound at all. You hear just the music. It’s literally mcintoshes tagline and philosophy.

I think anyone who thinks mcintosh sounds warm, veiled, is having sighted listening bias their opinion completely. maybe the blue meters are offensive to them...

In the old days I lusted for Mac......now that I've heard their sound, I bypass.

was the McIntosh a tube system? If so, your listening to two different topologies, tube and solid state. no wonder you heard two different sounds. With tubes, you change the sound character by swapping out tubes. At the end of the day, get what sounds best to you. I went from transistor to tubes years ago after listening to various types of amps. 

Off topic a bit, speaking of shrinking hobby,  one trend I've paid attention to is the kids with portable devices with headphones resurrected headphones a bit and then they wanted better separate/amps for their headphones, then they started dabbling in tube/headphone amps, which then seemed to help drive a resurgence in small tube amps for headphones.  

Now some of them are buying small tube amps for home use.  Now we are seeing tube amps pop back up in the USA and of course China is cranking out tube amps like crazy.   

If you check around there are several new USA based tube amp builders popping up too, who woulda knew... found several new Co.s may not making a killing on sales but surviving.  Kinda cool to see this happening. 

I am Mac lover (Mc2301, Mc452, C1100, D1100) and I have B&W signature diamond and signature 30 speaker, they are beautiful warm. clear sound. I want to say that all personal preference is different and demo systems (include cables, rooms, or speaker positions...) make huge different too. nowadays it is very hard for listen to the high end demo system sound in local dealer or retail store. sadly watching this hobby will get older and shrinking...:-(

Moving from my former good quality media room to my great/expensive/custom engineered designed listening room was an eye opener.  The same very good/not SOTA audio system became a fabulous sounding system, making 30 year old, very good speakers sound like high end costly speakers.  With my tweaks added, I can enjoy most recordings including early acoustic ones with only the most wretched recordings remaining unlistenable.  No tone controls or DSP, just a great room (SOTA) acoustically and good room electrically (not SOTA) providing the basis for my equipment and tweaks to perform maximally.

70% of the sound quality in any system comes first from the acoustical controls field of the room, and from the controls of the electrical grid of the house, and some part from the mechanical embeddings controls...Only 30 % comes from the amplifier and source...


This rule is valid for most mid-fi and high fi system of relatively very good quality that are all relatively equal  in this prepared and controlled audio context, despite their evident differences...


The illusion that electronic component magically create hi-fi experience out of the box for the customers is an engineered marketing illusion...Almost all relatively good audio systems will be top hifi if they are embedded rightly in the mechanical, and electrical and acoustical grids....Or will sound shitty otherwise....Even one million dollars system....

An experience by chance, in a non prepared and non controlled environment of a piece of electronic gear by the listener means nothing even for the listener himself, whether he believes the opposite or not....

@stereo5 agree 100 percent. 

Just listened again to a Mac 462 connected to a pair of Sonus fabers. In a post above someone mentioned to be aware of cables, and I second that. We tried 3 different speaker cables and the worst pair caused the combination to sound muted, the Nordost Frey 2 brought everything up a notch or 10. Detailed, musical, nothing dry or clinical. Perfect for our ears. We liked the combo so much we bought them.

Upgraded my C45 to C49 pre and Harbeth SHL5 to McIntosh XR100 speakers played with MC352 amp.  Really thought I was going to buy the Harbeth 40.2's but thought I would try the Mc's first to save money.  I bought them with 2 months to try them out and have owned them longer than that.  
To back track a little I have owned equipment from other companies (Krell, Cary, Magnapan) but have consolidated my system over the years because I believe you get great value and synergy from buying products from the same company. This takes the risk of disappointment to a low level.  Linn, Bryston, MBL, Burmester and others also make complete systems. The end of this post is to say that I am very happy with the C49, MC352 and XR100 sound quality.  Acoustic sounds are entirely natural and pleasing (same characteristics the Harbeth's are known for) and have a greater range and scale than my Harbeths (which I still own).  They shine reproducing Jazz and Classical and can Rock like crazy!  I only write about what I have had in my house.  Happy listening to all.

It's possible our taste in what we like to hear changes with time too.  Less detail and more musical midrange with full body sound is what I prefer too.  While I'm not a Parasound or Macintosh owner both offer great options. Good source and proper speaker matching can make a huge difference in preference one way or the other.  

It does not appear the OPs original post was really an apples-to-apples comparison anyhow jumping from one store to another with completely different setups over an extended period of time.  I've heard some crappy Mc systems and some really good ones all dependent on the room, component, and speakers chosen by the person giving the demo. Same setup can sound completely different when you get it home for demo too.  Lots of variables.  

zavato

McIntosh serviced my MC2250 amp, and my C28 Preamp,

but they do NOT support my mx110z in any way. Granted it’s from the 60’s, but still, If I was willing to wait .....

No parts, no service. I broke the face glass last year, no help. I found replacement glass online, but, decided to have a local shop make me a piece with two holes (half the price), I masked off the clear area and painted it black myself (as original). And renewed the dust seals around it’s inside edges.

They are making me a new factory box for it, $55. delivered, so if needing to ship it in the future ......

Who really cares and does it matter whether you like McIntosh or not? Sound is subjective and the variables are many here. For whatever reason, you prefer Parasound. John Curl is one of the most legendary designers in the history of audio so whatever he designs is going to sound great. McIntosh has being making gear since 1949. How is it possible that their equipment is not clear and sounds like a thin sheet of paper and they are still in business for 70 years? Does that mean everyone who purchases Mac gear is deaf or hearing impaired? Stereophile just gave the Mc462 a class A recommendation. How is that possible if Mac gear is not clear and sounds like a thin sheet of paper?

So Since you went to 2 locations and came to the same conclusion, You should forget Mac and Sonus Faber. You seem to like Parasound so then find a dealer that supports that brand and then compare that to 2 other brands of comparable price and performance, then narrow it down to the winner. Why 3, you will get confused with too many variables. Speakers: there are too many choices and too many variables which makes them the most subjective. Sonus Faber is overall a softer sounding speaker because they have been a proponent of silk soft dome tweeters from the beginning. I know this because I own a pair of original Guarneri Homages from 1999(pair #1498) which I ran with a full Mark Levinson 300 series complete system. The designer wanted a tweeter that had very low resonance so that the sound of the violin is reproduced in its most pure state. This is why the first pair made is in the Hall of Violins in Cremona Italy to commemorate the birthday of the great violin maker Guarneri. Does this mean that it is the perfect speaker? No, but its the speaker that I chose because I like it at the time: And 20 years later, I still like them. Are they the best speakers for heavy duty rock music and drums no because tweeters are designed to be polite and polished. If you want more life in the highs, you can audition, Focal, B&W 800 series, Klipsh Heritage series.

WOM is not really a great place to audition because its a company experience center, not a store. Its goal is to display Mac, ARC, and Sonus Faber in living spaces so that the rich can see and experience this equipment in a true living space not in an audiophile sound room. Many of the 1% will purchase Sonus Faber for the looks alone because even if you don't like their sound, no other speaker is a beautiful work of art that happens to make music: Good luck in your search and don't forget to enjoy the music.

Most of the bitching about Mcintosh on this thread comes from those that dollars to donuts can’t afford it,

And to the gentleman who posted Wilson and Mac in the same thread above dollars to donuts can’t afford either and doesn’t have the proper room to put them in.

you get this a lot on the Gon.

What an odd post.

Mcintosh gear is terrific and a good value. May be the lowest cost of ownership in high end audio. With that being said, I have owned it in the past and may own some in the future but I presently own Audio Research. 

While it may not be to everyone’s taste, anyone who prefers something else is certainly justified in doing so. Anyone who says it is bad has another agenda. Its like someone who doesn’t like cauliflower telling everyone else it is bad for you. The McIntosh bashing is silly.

As an owner of many McIntosh components, I take umbrage in saying it is a popular brand of the maga crowd. I am not nor would ever be associated with those type of people.

Every brand has its detractors. McIntosh isn't cheap, and it may not be to everyone's liking, but, there are a few things that are hard to dispute. First- they continue to support old products. In 2008 I bought a new front glass- new as in current production new and not new old stock, for a 40 year old tuner. Second, over the long run, McIntosh mains excellent resale value. If someone is a fan of McIntosh sound, it is, in the long run, a very decent buy. 

gavman24 posts02-08-2020 8:43amMacintosh spend a lot on marketing in the US. The designs are too dated and not competitive pricewise outside of the US.
Personally i am very suspicious of manufacturers running the old 'buy domestically to demonstrate your patriotism' play. To me that's evidence your products can't compete on their merits.
Still, they are popular with the maga crowd.
Which tells you plenty


And what does conservatism have to do with McIntosh or Audio in general?

I Have been a Mac user for over 20 years I have rotated different gear thru my system, and paired assorted gear with the McIntosh gear. Sometimes it sounds great, and sometimes not so great. In the past year have been living with some Manley tube gear. Paired to my MC-352 sounds great. Paired with my Primaluna HP tube amp sounds a little better to my ears. Wider soundstage, and more defined bass. To me the whole reason for entering this hobby was to enjoy the music, and experience different types of gear. Although Mac is good gear, it is not the pinnacle of sound.  I’m not going to be parting with my MC-352 anytime soon for now I’m enjoying the sound that I enjoy.

I am not a hater of McIntosh. A C-45 pre, and a MC-402 power was my reference for 12 years. I just happened to find a Integrated amp for one third the price of the Mac gear that, in my system sounded better. I would say it's all about component matching. IMO.

Originally, and now, their claim has been their Transformer Patent, Neutrality, Protection Circuit, Build Quality.

just popped up on Google.

https://www.popsci.com/story/technology/mcintosh-amp-factory-photos/

I visited the headquarters and manufacturing/service building last year, holy smokes, this article has no photos of how big it is! 

Was there to service, then sell my Solid State MC2250 amp; SS C28 Preamp.

I went for an old Tube Mcintosh Tuner/Preamp from the 60's, mx110z, I couldn't be happier. 
..................................

Often you never know the whole chain, weakest link.

I just blew a 6sl7 tube (labeled Cayin, source?) in my beloved Integrated Tube Amp (Cayin A88T), and quickly ordered two new matched pairs, Sylvania NOS, ....

Then, I searched my random collection of tubes, found a GE, used, strong, put it in the blown channel, wonderful, matched the sound of the other Cayin 6sl7. Found another, and last used GE, they are in there now.

New Sylvania's arrived, oh boy! In/ sounded dull, so compressed, no!!! Burnt them in for 3 full days, improved a bit, but still not as musical as the GE's. Brent Jesse has the GE's, NOS, and will take these Sylvanias back.
..............................

Point is: If I heard that Cayin amp with those Sylvania tubes, I would have walked away saying negative things about Cayin, meanwhile, with the GE's, I absolutely love it.

btw, Cayin came with 6550's, very nice. After a few months, I tried some KT88's. Slight preference for KT88's,

What cables were in the chain, ....?  Good stuff can be rejected in the store, and great stuff in the store, in your space, your cables, .... can be disappointing. 

It's work to get it right.

If you think Parasound A21 is better McIntosh MC452, buy the Parasound amp. End of story.

I have heard McIntosh with speakers such as Dhalquest long ago and for its day it was impressive. More recently I heard McIntosh with Sonus Farber and the Sonus Farber speakers cost well over $50,000. They were well suited for duplicating the ambience of an outdoor rock performance which when live is amplifier with enormous banks of speakers. But let me join everyone else in encouraging you to go with the sound you like. Don't let any high prestige brand name or exotic theory get away with making you choose something that does not sound as good to you. I design and build my own amplifiers and preamplifiers and many components which are supposed to sound better disappointed me. I tried parafeed to drive the grids on my 833-A's and while it worked, it did not have the full body and detail of regular DC carrying larger step-down transformers to go from 5k to 500 Ohms. The same with a selector switch with 24 pairs bulk metal foil Vishay resistors for volume control which was far outclassed by a cheaper Alps plastic resistor with a wiper. The same in my preamplifier which sounds best by far with a less than glamorous resistor capacitor coupling input. And finally, the same was true for me of speakers. A $1400 pair of Magnepans outclassed every box speaker I ever heard for sounding as clear and like a live performance of an acoustic orchestra and live singers in the opera house I go to.I would consider McIntosh with Magnepans, but I have "outgrown" by my disappointing experiences in life with the luxury status eliciting way of life to be achieved by guests being impressed with the sight of McIntosh, which I think can be very good electronics. I prefer the exhibitionist of my steampunk style amplifiers with quart-sized radio station transmitter tubes complete with proper warning, 1000 Vots stickers on the output transformers. Finally, don't be fooled by cables costing thousands of dollars. The physics they use in their designs is faulty but it takes graduate level training to calculate how their claims calculate not to add up.

I've owned several Mac amps over many years. I've found all to be solidly made and their latest hybrid integrated amps are magic. The Mac 352 paired with Harbeth Super SHL Plus speakers creates sound that beats systems costing thousands of dollars more. Plus Mac gear holds its value, which makes it easy to upgrade without taking a big financial hit. 

Vegasears
I owned the TL-2.5 for two decades.
The early 12AX7 & 6350 tube model.
After rolling to the right tubes, it went to having little signature sound & little tube sound. It had more natural uncolored sound.
The I upgraded to the TL-5.5 (series 1)
After rolling to the right tubes, it went to having no signature sound & no tube sound. After going to reference quality cables, there is no house sound, no coloration, just the open & airy music without bias.
I’ve gotten to the place I wanted & glad you have too.

@cydrone

3 Months ago I went to NYC and stopped by the WOM and auditioned several MCintosh gear...........and left a bit disappointed or not impressed...then I told myself " lets give a second shot" and went today to a HIFI store and again Good room accoustics10K speakers , MC Preamp , MC Amplifier........ and again the same disappointment I felt 3 month earlier.

Is that the "warm" sound people reffer to about Mcintosh?
The sound is ample, base is powerfull but the the sound is simply not to clear, the hights are not too "crisp" It sounds like the treble is set at 3 and needs to be adjusted at 9 or 10.
It seems like the sound is coming through a thin layer of paper ...that is the way I describe that sound.

Then 20 minutes later I auditioned a Parasound A21+ and a JC5 and the sound was more clear and the highs were crispier

Whats your take on my experience? or That is the MC "warm sound?

Were the Parasound components (removed and replaced) paired up with the exact same source, same speakers, same interconnect and speaker cables, in the exact same room and same location as the Macintosh preamp/amplifier for a true apples-to-apples comparison?

I find it amusing that all this talk about Macintosh being "warm" sounding and prefer brighter amps are some of the same people that will criticize klipsch for being too bright. I think too many people listen too much of opinions rather than listen to the equipment to make up their own minds.

Either you like music as it was recored and intended to be heard or not. 

@vegasears...………………………………….

Excellent score on the C2500.  I paid $4100.00 for mine, used from Audio Classics.  If you think it sounds good with the McIntosh branded tubes (JJ), try a pair of the Gold Lion 12AX7 tubes in the line stage.  It will take the preamp to another level while retaining the wonderful McIntosh sound.

Main goal of McI is big power. They use Push Pull mode of tube amps, this mode cause sharp and metal sound, like in more PP brand. PP mode consist in output stage 2 big tubes in two shoulders, upper and down. Signal from preamp fase splitter   is divided to 2 /pos. and negat./. Positive goes to upper shoulder and negative - to down shoulder. Every time signal goes from pos. to neg. cross zero, that cause sharp and metal sound. Main + is big power.  In mode SE /single end/ signal is not divided and sound is warm!. IMO, I think HiEnd is in mode SE. Power is about 3 - 8 W, but if You use speakers with big sensitivity 94 and more dB, the sound is very loud, and is enough for big rooms, basements.......I listen only SE /my projects/ 2A3RCA, 6S4S, 6P31S, EL11 Telefunken, 300B. I dont like 6L6, EL34 that are used in guitar amps with sharp sound. I advice You look at SE amp and Hi sensitivity speakers.  

I mainly look at used gear. I owned the TL-2.5 for a few years.  It was just OK or maybe I just wanted a more of a tube sound.  My unit has 12AT7 and 12AU7 tubes. Some of the VTL 2.5's had a different tube complement.  I heard the VTL TL-5.5 in a shop, impressive.  To me it had a tight and controlled presentation.  It made me think about the TL-6.5.  Never got around to any ARC product.  A friend pointed me to Mcintosh, which I'd always felt would be priced out of my reach based resale value/cost. In the end my choice came down to Company Reputation, Cost and Warranty.  The Mcintosh C2500 came New In Box with a three year warranty for just under 5 grand.

@vegasears 
The Mac I tried was SS.
It had too much house sound for me.
C2500 looks to be quite a bit better...

Curious which other VTL & ARC pre’s you compared?
TL-2.5
TL-5.5 (series one or two)

I've been driving ESL's since the 70s starting with Tiger .01's.
WTF is this "over detailed" paranoia of which you speak?

@durkn The Mcintosh C2500 is a perfect match with my VTL 450MKII amps.  The C2500 beat out ARC and VTL for a place on my rack. It came down to preferred house sound, options and bang for buck value.  One of the deciding factors was the two Phono sections, MC & MM.   Huge cost and space saving.  Yet, even better is how it brings out the best is all my gear.  Note: I've owned various VTL product over the years and love it. I have never owned ARC.

Yes low tubes..........it holds resale value better then most but in actually NO AUDIO EQUIPMENT hold resale value worth a darn only bested by cars and trucks but at times audio holds resale value even worse then cars and trucks and BY DARN when i buy audio equipment I HAVE NEVER ever purchased with that idea In mind ....NEVER ...... i purchase to keep forever to make love to my music with the best  sound possible that is why i own 4 pair of Quicksilver TRIODE 6C33C Atma-sphere M60 and Merlin and i will die with all of those that is how impressive they all are ................ and yes I have made mistakes about 250k worth over the last 40+ years but I finally I got smart (possibly even divine intervention) that is why a higher power sent me Quicksilver 6c33c’s ....Merlin....Atma-sphere....DH labs Revelation and Deity..... Hattor and thank god Khozmo to replace all Alps junk and Duelund in everything

I haven't read all replies.  Just in case,   I want to mention that some Mac amp models sound better than other Mac amp models.  I know of recording and mastering engineers in NYC who love the following Mac amp models.
- the Mcintosh MC 252 solid state amp- 250 watts per channel (luscious tube-like sounding amp_ without the tube concerns.  ideal for a mixer.  No longer made.
- the Mcintosh MC 275 tube amp -75 watts per channel (their classic tube amp - don't let the 75 watt rating fool you.  One powerful,  wonderful sounding amp.  I recommend you use different tubes than the stock tubes.  From the likes of Golden Lion or Penta KT88SC for KT88 tubes.  And tubes like vintage Teleflunken tubes for the smaller tubes.
-  the Mcintosh 7205 five channel solid state amp- sought after also for it's tube like attributes.  Has maintained it's value over the years and is quickly bought when it shows up for sale.  No longer made.

Cheers and enjoy the quest!

@lowtubes I agree you should buy from a reputable hifi manufacturing co but NOT for future resale value. Who knows what the future holds.

I am really surprised a lot of times by the dumb remarks people make in reference to questions asked. If fact, people reply back many times with information that is not what the posted question is  about. My answer to your question is very simple and with common sense. You can not judge McIntosh amps unless you hear them on many different systems. I would guess McIntosh has a certain “house” sound that you should get familiar with to see if that’s for you. I have heard Mac amps many times and when set up correctly, they sound very nice. But it’s important to remember that the hired designers at McIntosh come and go so the “house” sound will change throughout the years. I personally feel that it’s important to purchase from a reputable hifi manufacturing company because it will still have a good resale value in the event it doesn’t work for you. Compared to Parasound, the McIntosh has a much better resale value.  I personally have a ton of tube and SS gear but have never owned a Mac amp but I have absolutely no objective in getting one. But I would never want a Parasound in my home. 

Do bot underestimate the impact of the cabling/wiring. ;)

I listened to a Mc system driving Maggies, two systems actually at the local Hi-Fi place and they both sounded like music through mud.  I'll stay with my 25 year old Acoustats, ARC Pre and Sumo amps.

I have a MA6600 in my secondary system and it’s the best integrated I have yet heard in my system.  It has great synergy driving a pair of GE Triton Ones. Previously I had a Parasound Halo Integrated and a Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated and it was no contest. 

There are models of Macintosh intergraded amps that do sound cleaner or crisper then others. My dealer demonstrated both sides. Might have been the MA 5300..
I had the MA6200 for many years and it was recommended that if I liked that warm
sound ‘almost tube like’ go with the MA6600, which I did and just love it. It’s such a fine line for me when it comes to more detail at the cost of Listeners fatigue. I spend several hours a day playing music,
Cds, tape, and vinyl. Macintosh isn’t for everyone but those of us who are luck enough to own it are sure
glad they do. 😎

@jordi couldn't agree with you more. I've heard it in 3-4 stores and in friends homes and ALWAYS a sterile uninvolving sound. Gear looks great and a nice talking point but that's it. Again IMHO.

Interesting thread.  I recently commissioned full restoration of a MX110z, 225, and 240 and will have an opportunity to listen very soon.   I have heard MAC tube equipment before, and of course their SS models.  I am generally not a fan of most of their SS equipment.  C28 sounds ok, 6100 sounds ok....most of the rest did nothing for me.   I have not listened to current MAC SS equipment.  Anyway, I have a lot vintage and more recent tube equipment on hand and it will be interesting to hear how restored MACs compare.

Mac service was always great with my gear. Slow though.... But I have learned that the servicing of just about any/all of what I would call "good gear", indeed takes patience.
  And, "Patience is a virtue"....

Well if this discussion shows anything, it is that people like different sounding systems!  But it is quite interesting how McIntosh discussions evoke such passion and opinion.  I can think of no other brand which causes such divisiveness.  Or brand loyalty...which of course does maintain resale value.  For these and many reasons people (my self included)  'want' to like McIntosh. (and yes the tube stuff is quite different from the SS stuff).  For me, I chose to go in another direction, and feel my  equipment (AudioNet, Auralic  and PS Audio) is more resolving and interesting.  But I have fought and controlled any 'shrill' or excessive brightness.  My Revel speakers are on the smoother side (but much more revealing than the Sonus Faber I have heard).  My interconnects are Audience AU24 SX, which are amazing, copper, smooth and revealing.  My Classe amp is smooth. PS Audio, is described as 'more analog sounding' by many.  But we do appreciate McIntosh; they are a US icon.  In an age of buyouts and confusion, they lend stability to our hifi world.  Peace!  Ken

Funny because their largest stereo amp is A rated by the mags for its sound / performance. and, McIntosh/Sonus Faber are owned by the same parent. I wonder what you'd have heard if it was a true blind listening scenario...