It’s easy to make snide remarks like “yes- I do the opposite of what he says.” And in some respects I agree, but if you do that, this is just going to be taken down. So I’m asking a serious question. Has ASR actually changed your opinion on anything? For me, I would say 2 things. I am a conservatory-trained musician and I do trust my ears. But ASR has reminded me to double check my opinions on a piece of gear to make sure I’m not imagining improvements. Not to get into double blind testing, but just to keep in mind that the brain can be fooled and make doubly sure that I’m hearing what I think I’m hearing. The second is power conditioning. I went from an expensive box back to my wiremold and I really don’t think I can hear a difference. I think that now that I understand the engineering behind AC use in an audio component, I am not convinced that power conditioning affects the component output. I think.
So please resist the urge to pile on. I think this could be a worthwhile discussion if that’s possible anymore. I hope it is.
Amir has reinforced some of my views for sure. Mainly about the absolute absurdity of exotic power cables and the mind boggling pricing of them. He's also confirmed some opinions held by people I trust, specifically sound engineers.
Most importantly he's opened my eyes to some new products that I otherwise would have ignored.
I work in an industry that is parallel to the world of sound recording and reproduction. In my field, there is raging debate as to what camera is best, what lens is sharper and what format is most appropriate. All of these factors can be measured but choices are guided by having a good overall understanding of all the parameters including the perception of others. It's not that different in the audio world.
I've been interested in audiophilia for most of my life. I love the exotic engineering excesses of it. But I am acutely aware of the spurious claims made by some manufacturers and the "law of diminishing returns" with regard to some engineering approaches.
He is a thoughtful and interesting person who just provides objective, comparative test results of equipment, based on relevant criteria. That he attracts so much vitriol is baffling to me. I get he might ruffles feathers, but that is why he is interesting.
I'll continue to read ASR with considerable interest.
Nope. My ears convey the truth than measurements ever did. Case in point....Amir tested the MHDT Pagoda DAC and apparently according to him it was the worst measuring dac he has ever tested. Yet, in a side by side comparison with two of the dacs in his top measuring tier the Pagoda in my system sounded significantly better and more lifelike to my ears. I sold the other dacs and kept the kept the Pagoda until I got my current dac...the schiit "less is more" version of the yggdrasil which is simply amazing.
I don't see how a manufacturer of audio equipment can train you to listen ...
Most rigorous double-blind listening tests include training. They don't so much train you to listen as they do train to know what to listen for. In a way, they "teach to the test." Typically, trained listeners are better able to distinguish differences in blind testing.
Setting up a true, valid, double-blind listening test is much more work than many audiophiles acknowledge. So when manufacturers go to the trouble of doing this testing, they want to have meaningful data at the end of the day.
I don't see how a manufacturer of audio equipment can train you to listen, seems a conflict of interest. Maybe a manufacturer of single ended triode amps and horn speakers would produce a different kind of trained listener.
Measurements are important to reveal major flaws. Listening completes the evaluation. As Dr. Floyd Toole said "Two ears and a brain respond very differently to a complex sound field and are much more analytical, than an omni-directional mic and analyzer." Is Dr. Toole wrong?
The central problem in audio science and experience are first and last psycho-acoustic problem...Not gear analysis problem...
Psycho-acoustic use human subjectivity as a TOOL but also as en END , because psycho-acoustic study hearing as a real phenomenon not as a tool for gear debunking matter...
Debunking as Amir does the audio industry claims by verifying them is a welcome enterprise... As i said and i had no problem with that it is a service for all ...
But going further , as some Amir followers does, using techno-materialism to claim that qualities dont exist in a real world but are only "illusions" created by the brain is a simplistic stance, which is not true at all... Perceived qualities, even if illusions exist too, are real and all the craft of acoustic is based on trained acoustic experience and experiments...
The goal of audio experience is then training our perception , not mainly and only to debunk illusions, but to train ourself in acoustic environment,...
Sound sources put in vibration reveal their real qualities to our ears/brain IF WE TRAIN IT : Their densities, their composition ( wood, skin, metal, iron glaqss etc) their inside ( empty or full with single hole or multiple one of different size or not , with apertures etc ) their qualities as fruit ripeness or not or weight of the object as a delicate woman walk sounds impressions or a big dude etc... We can even echolocate our navigation as bats and dolphins do, many blind peiople teach it in the world... The voices analysis of the answers incoming from a person to another reveal much to consciousness as to unconsciousness...In musical and acoustic context the analysis of "timbre" perception experience by a subject imply 5 factors among which there is not only spectral envelope but also time envelope etc and these factors are not determined by the mere electrical characteristic of the gear, but by specific acoustic conditions in the room and location of the listener , his training status, and specific ears structure etc ....
Then we cannot reduce all listenings impressions to be illusions because they dont appear in some electrical tool ... Subjectivity in acoustic is not treated as something to be ALWAYS eliminated but something that must be put under control and trained... Biases in psycho-acoustic are not only negative factor to be erased if not controlled for some study sake but also they positive motivations the scientist must understand for their own sake in other kind of studies for example in hearing aids technology ...
The vibrating sound sources are then real and their qualities perceived are real too...The vibrating pattern in the air is decoded by the brain in a way science is in the ongoing process to understand... The story is not completed...
How someone can analyse with electrical tools the complex frequencies spectral distribution in space and time of a qualitative information perceived by some brain ? It is possible for some aspects of the experience, but it is not possible for all aspects for a specific listener...
It is impossible using electrical tools used in electronical design check-up or reparation to assess that what is perceived and does not appear is only illusions...Some acoustic phenomenan are room dependant and gear dependant and specific trained ear dependant, it is not a pretense for owning "golden ears" , it is a description of the complex facts of the matter which some people arrogantly simplify.. ...
Then it is only ideology not science and real experience who make people arrogant enough to reject any perceiving experience not measured by electrical tools as illusions...
But read me right, when Amir verify with his tools the designer claims he does a great service ... When people reading him goes further accusing everyone of FALSEHOOD who learn how to hear a difference in any sound qualitative phenomena related to acoustic complex specific conditions ( speakers/room/ears coupled together ) they goes too far...
I will repeat myself here: subjectivist and objectivist put the focus on the gear as the market has conditioned them for decades to do ... This is not even wrong to do it, this is misleadinng and created quarrel between two opposite sides who fail to see the main problem : how to learn to listen in acoustic experimental conditions homemade or in a LABORATORY... The gear choice picked by listening taste or by measured standards is SECONDARY...Learning acoustic and basic psycho-acoustic is the tool and the goal...
@amir_asr you say you are one of the most open minded people yet you shut down a thread about Erins audio corner because you said the title was clickbait and people dissenting caused you to throw a hissy fit.
Ever seen Highlander? There can be only one.
In the case of Amirs kingdom ASR, there can't be 2 Supreme Leaders. Especially with another fancy Klippel NFS!
Btw, yes, Erin is the nicest guy in person. Hopefully Amir goes to PAF next year.
I almost spewed coffee out my nose reading this. I bet no one here or on Amirs Science Review knows about this old classic: Establishing Differences By The +/- 10% Volume Method 😉. Really glad you've come around on this. Presumably the new, reformed Amir is the real Guru now?
Btw, checked your Madrona site and another classic is still there! Glad you're keeping Bona fides with the hear this, that and the other crowd too.
Amir really needs to respond to this along with why he shuts down discussions on his forum he doesnt like? Ridiculous
If it measures the same, it sounds the same. Golden ears do not exist, human hearing capability is the same, just the brain that creates differences when none exist. Blind testing proves that?
So anybody go through the Harman process to become a trained listener? I have. What is the point of becoming a trained listener if measurements reveal how a product will sound? Measurements are important to reveal major flaws. Listening completes the evaluation. As Dr. Floyd Toole said "Two ears and a brain respond very differently to a complex sound field and are much more analytical, than an omni-directional mic and analyzer." Is Dr. Toole wrong?
Check out this measurement base review of MoFi SourcePoint speakers. Like ASR, Erin also uses a Klippel’s Near-Field Scanner. I can’t say Erin "changed my mind" because I wasn’t planning on buying these speakers. I learned that these speakers must be towed in or out for a neutral sound presentation. If I were to recommend these speakers, I’d have to bring up that caveat.
I have watched a few minutes of a couple of his videos and the biggest change for me was never to view another of his videos again. That would be time I will never get back
For me, ASR is a useful tool. If I am contemplating a purchase, I will see if he has measured the device. I really don't take his listening recommendations to heart. I don’t trust his ears. I do trust his opinions of the measured performance.
Ultimately, my own ears determine whether a device takes residence in my system. But I surely don't want to purchase poorly engineered product.
I think Amir and ASR do a wonderful job dispelling audio myths spread by the industry to make sales of useless snake oil products. I especially like his systematic debunking of cable mania. Personally I would never buy anything that wasn’t on his recommended list.
On the other hand, if people here enjoy audio products for purely subjective reasons why not? That’s their personal aesthetic and they are happy. But objective Science is important and cannot be brushed off as an invalid criterion.
Well, since the posts in questions have apparently been deleted, I cannot go back and show you that there was a claim at issue.
I would not have agreed with the use of the word "fallacious" if a mere preference was at stake. Not because that's necessarily insulting, but because it's a category mistake.
If I say red is my favorite color, and someone says that's fallacious, either I'm wrong about my own preferences (which is impossible) or what that person has said is nonsense -- a category mistake. That's why I thought that a factual claim was at issue.
Whoa, Amir, is that you??? I had no idea you still ventured outside of your reformation kingdom!
Most folks here won't know we are half brothers and go back decades. How are you my friend?
What I talk about is elementary in audio science. So no, stating the need for a controlled test is not any attempt at looking like a guru.
1. Levels must be matched. This applies to active devices like electronics and passives like speakers/headphones. If you don’t match levels, you better not bother.
I almost spewed coffee out my nose reading this. I bet no one here or on Amirs Science Review knows about this old classic: Establishing Differences By The +/- 10% Volume Method 😉. Really glad you've come around on this. Presumably the new, reformed Amir is the real Guru now?
Btw, checked your Madrona site and another classic is still there! Glad you're keeping Bona fides with the hear this, that and the other crowd too.
Take care man.
p.s. you going to be at PAF next year too? I might come visit you and JJ
@amir_asryou say you are one of the most open minded people yet you shut down a thread about Erins audio corner because you said the title was clickbait and people dissenting caused you to throw a hissy fit.
I have not once heard you say in your responses here, how you could do things better or where you fell short. That is why you are vilified here and Erin is beloved. you have no modesty and you can't even witness it.
@mahgister I actually wrote a long post…I know…hypocrite…but bare with me here for 💩 s and giggles…
You are not hypocrite but very kind toward me because my posts are heavier, much long, and less easy for anybody trying to catch the essence of the matter...Sorry...
Thanks anyway ...😊
The audio research, i think i will pick ( price tag means nothing but i am human ) ...
My position is i appreciate Amir analysis... But as information added i welcome it ..
I dont like for sure to be told lesson about my hearings impression by some techno-cultist...
And i dont think that suggesting as i did to tune a room by our faillible and biases ears is in any way "fallacious"...it is economical and it is what we may call real learning...
«My perfect mother created his imperfect son because she said there is something more in it»--Groucho Marx 🤓
@audphile1: the ARC DAC of course. But…. with a twist: grab the ARC, sell it to gullible & deluded (or is it fallacious now, as the Master named them?) audiophile. Buy the Topping DAC brand new with a small portion of the sale proceeds. Save a lot of money, with which you can buy a lot of measurement gadgets. Measure away all your heart wants! 😉
@ the measurements is everything crowd…riddle me this…
Your rich uncle dies. He had an awesome stereo with two dacs - a Topping D90SE that he used to stream from Tidal (MQA), and an Audio Research DAC-9 that he used for Qobuz. His widow calls you and says kid, in his will, your uncle had left you one DAC and you can only take one.
He left the manuals for you to review the specs as he promised his kids the rest of the system and they already picked it all up. There’s nothing to plug the dac into.
The manuals state the following measurements:
Topping D90SE:
Frequency response
20Hz - 20kHz (±0.1dB)
20Hz - 40kHz (±0.3dB)
THD+N@A-wt: <0.00005% @1kHz
SNR@A-wt: 134dB @1kHz
Audio Research DAC-9:
FREQUENCY RESPONSE +/-0.15dB 20Hz – 20kHz;
THD+NOISE Less than .002% at 2V RMS 1kHz Balanced output.
SIGNAL TO NOISE>114dB.
You’re walking out of that house with one DAC and one DAC only…which one and why?
P.S.
@mahgister I actually wrote a long post…I know…hypocrite…but bare with me here for 💩 s and giggles…
If someone tells me I’ve said something "fallacious," I don’t take that as a put down. They are doing me a service -- helping direct me to what is false. Because I prefer not to believe or claim false things. @amir_asr then goes to explain why it is fallacious. Those who interpret this as a personal attack just prove Amir’s point that some here are not interested in facts. (You don't agree with his argument that it's fallacious? Fine. Then rebut him. But don't take it personally.)
@painter24 simply and plainly described a personal preference for musical enjoyment. A statement having nothing to do with measurements or Amir. The use of "fallacious" by Amir was completely in the wrong. No false things to discuss or correct. @painter24 expressed a preference, just like saying Red is my favorite color. The "fallacious" comment by Amir and your defense of same completely miss the point being made by @painter24. Amir and your behavior, treating everyone as deserving some kind of re-education is arrogant.
i am very kind with any people engaging in discussion...
But my defect was not, like you, insulting as first post to someone who never insulted you and even spoke to you ... i never do that... My personal defect, because i am not perfect, is ANSWERING if someone talk to me the way you did ...Is it difficult to figure out ?
And yes sometimes my "ego" takes the place but i am conscious of that and i am able to recognize it when someone is POLITE and we are discussing...
I never breed grudges... Then i thank you for your last words and i wish you the best possible day to come...
I apologize for my long posts and thank you in advance for going over them...
You figured out who I was addressing so this much you’re intelligent. Or it must not be your first time. I don’t flash the intelligent card. You on the other hand are of a very high opinion of yourself and your posts show your overinflated ego.
Be well. And have a lovely evening.
Before INSULTING it never cross your mind that all people here are not as high in intelligence as you seems to think about you? Then why insulting an "idiot" like me ?
Then insulting as first words of dialogue is perhaps a symptom of some other problem in your temper?
If you had no arguments save the number of words in my posts, i will go on...
I am pretty sure your high I.Q. can make you able to pass over them...
Especially if you cannot oppose any argument...
By the way yiddish nor english are my first language, i apologize for my syntax and limited vocabulary... For the rest skip my posts... Temper tantrum are a bit childish ...
Your serial posts spanning essays of 2-3 pages are no indication of your intelligence. Keep it succinct. A much better indicator if being able to formulate your thoughts efficiently.
Amir do a free service that is and will be welcome...Dont kill the messenger...
In ancient times the bearer of 'unwelcome' news' could often found himself on the receiving end of much scorn.
Judging by the way the likes of Peter Aczel, Ethan Winer, Alan Shaw, and Amir himself have been treated by so many in recent times, I guess some things haven't changed all that much.
Small room acoustic is very complex because of the control negatively or positively of reverberation time and the wave direct and reflected ratio...In my case also the control of the zone pressure distribution i modified and in my case i used a grid of Helmholtz resonators..
I take one year full time in experiments each day... Reading acoustic article to extract some idea for a new or better experiment... it cost me the price of the garbage in my basement...
But learning how to listen is a full time job...Nothing was more fun though...No upgrade can be so fun and astonishing...
But i will never do it again because i learned already how to do it , but it will not spare me the listening time... Passive material treatment is relatively easy... But mechanical control not so much...
Now i am happy with my TOP headphone, probably one of the most complex ever designed ( there is very complex headphone design nowadays)... I asked a Kennerton guy few months ago about hybrid headphone in their future design planification research... He said to me they abandonned the idea because it is too costly to do it right and too complex to do it well at the first shot , and margin of profit too slim ... Then i own the only successful hybrid headphone ...I will die with it...The soundfield is speaker like and recording dependant...
It’s absolutely critical to try things and find out what works for you. But it means you have to try stuff. Sometimes the resulting configuration ends up looking funny and being totally unconventional. But if the months go by and you remain happy with it, that’s what matters
My latest funny looking setup involves angled gobos placed at the first reflection points on the side walls and then more gobos behind me to either side. Here at work I had learned about absorbing first reflections on sidewalls, but then replacing them with delayed reflections by bouncing sound off the back wall toward the first reflection points. A panel or TubeTrap that absorbs highs on one side and reflects them on the other will let you do this. My impression is that it sounds fantastic! But wouldn’t have know had I not tried it. Just absorbing or diffusing first reflections is not nearly as pleasing to me. If my room was wider this might not be necessary, actually I know it’s not as important because I was set up in a wide room at one point and it sounded great. The narrow room was a relative letdown.
It's absolutely critical to try things and find out what works for you. But it means you have to try stuff. Sometimes the resulting configuration ends up looking funny and being totally unconventional. But if the months go by and you remain happy with it, that's what matters
My latest funny looking setup involves angled gobos placed at the first reflection points on the side walls and then more gobos behind me to either side. Here at work I had learned about absorbing first reflections on sidewalls, but then replacing them with delayed reflections by bouncing sound off the back wall toward the first reflection points. A panel or TubeTrap that absorbs highs on one side and reflects them on the other will let you do this. My impression is that it sounds fantastic! But wouldn't have know had I not tried it. Just absorbing or diffusing first reflections is not nearly as pleasing to me. If my room was wider this might not be necessary, actually I know it's not as important because I was set up in a wide room at one point and it sounded great. The narrow room was a relative letdown.
I fully expect that some listeners may not be as impressed as I am with my non-standard setup, or may not like it at all. I try to be OK with that, and I mostly succeed.
You make a good point relating this quarrel about imposing a perspective over the other valid perspective...
The two perspective are valid in their own terms but it seems i am, if not the only one, one among very few, pointing why the two groups, subjectivist and objectivists, are wrong TOGETHER, focussing together on the gear component...
Audio is not first about the gear market hyper magical claims validity or about their debunking by verified measures versus claims ( which is a good thing to know for sure thanks to Amir hobby devotion )..
Audio is about first and last psycho-acoustic complex field and about speakers/room acoustic...It is not about upgrades with market publicity claims and subsequent debunking articles... My two dreamed revolutionary piece of gear by the way were created by acoustician , Dr.Gorike for my headphone, and Dr.Choueri for the dac...( i own only the headphone, the dac must wait for now 🤣😊😉 )
Then for me acoustic rule the game...Not electric engineers...
Especially nowadays when anybody can buy a basically good system at relatively low price in a mature audio industry ... The claims of the gear marketers and their falsification by Amir is interesting but SECONDARY completely for audio real experience which is related completely to mastery of acoustic basic...HERE WE LEARN HOW TO LISTEN...Nowhere else..
And to tune a room at low cost we need EARS....No debunking of hearing is needed here... Because here we learn how to listen with acoustic experiments in a room designed for our SPECIFIC BIASES...Small room acoustic is for a specific owner not for a crowd...And who had the money to invest 100,000 for an acoustical pro job ?
I respect much and more Amir effort and appreciate his findings because they can be useful but i dislike many of his groupies imposing on us meaningless claims, about my hearings so called limits which are sterile common place useless facts, among rightful facts about measured technicalities ... I dislike people here insulting Amir too by the way ...
Once this is said , audio purchase cannot be made by the chart inspection of any measures, we must take a listen too, and a room cannot be designed by an acoustician pro, save if you are very rich, then your hearing biases are your main tools.... They served me well and my system was astounding for me at peanuts costs ( not perfect but with no comparison at all between before and after)...People who pay many , many ten thousand dollars for their gear dont like to read that, i dont know why ? Sorry but acoustic matter not the price tag...😁😊
If i know how to modify the ASW/LV ratio to please me in my room , i dont need arrogant people to say that i need to be blind tested...
So imperfect it was no other system i listened to at any price beat my room soundfield, and those who own systems that rival or beat speakers/room rest assured did not pay just 10 times more than mine but way much more...it was enough for me... Especially at under 1000 bucks price...
I dont understand why people are so polarized... With agressivity...
This is a good point. I saw an old polarizing topic revisited in the news recently. Remember the old meme that was going around with the dress, about whether the dress was white and gold or black and blue? It really got people upset because their perception was obvious to them, and others claiming to see something completely different almost feels like a blatant lie. It’s a challenge to basic reality that’s plainly evident. It feels frustrating. (As for that one, I never took a side because the photo looked odd, like the color and contrast was intentionally ambiguous so I felt like I was being set up.)
I feel some of this frustration with stereo interaural crosstalk screwing up the tone with center panned images. I just went to the Pacific Audiofest and heard a bunch of otherwise very exquisite systems just completely ignoring this problem, with everybody acting like there’s nothing wrong. I hear it so clearly that it’s mind boggling to me. It’s a huge flaw in terms of what I expect from a high end system. How can people put up with this in something that’s had so much effort and expense put in to it to approach perfection?
I think it’s kind of like the dress. They don’t interpret the comb filtering the same way I do, so it comes across completely different perceptually to them, perhaps as a sense of depth, 3D dimensionality. I just move off center when I want to hear the center panned vocals or instrumentals sound better. This works for everybody because now I’m not taking up the "prime" center seats at the show.
I dont understand why people are so polarized... With agressivity...
This is a good point. I saw an old polarizing topic revisited in the news recently. Remember the old meme that was going around with the dress, about whether the dress was white and gold or black and blue? It really got people upset because their perception was obvious to them, and others claiming to see something completely different almost feels like a blatant lie. It’s a challenge to basic reality that’s plainly evident. It feels frustrating. (As for that one, I never took a side because the photo looked odd, like the color and contrast was intentionally ambiguous so I felt like I was being set up.)
I feel some of this frustration with stereo interaural crosstalk screwing up the tone with center panned images. I just went to the Pacific Audiofest and heard a bunch of otherwise very exquisite systems just completely ignoring this problem, with everybody acting like there’s nothing wrong. I hear it so clearly that it’s mind boggling to me. It’s a huge flaw in terms of what I expect from a high end system. How can people put up with this in something that’s had so much effort and expense put in to it to approach perfection?
I think it’s kind of like the dress. They don’t interpret the comb filtering the same way I do, so it comes across completely different perceptually to them, perhaps as a sense of depth, 3D dimensionality. I just move off center when I want to hear the center panned vocals or instrumentals sound better. This works for everybody because now I’m not taking up the "prime" center seats at the show.
Thank you for your service in terms of public health, and my condolences on the health issues you face.
However...this...
I wish I had nothing else to think about other than sitting around measuring bits of hifi, but my sense of public duty, and service to the public under our collective care, for me is part of my belief system, hence where I work.
...seems like a bit of a moralizing dig at Amir. "sitting around measuring bits of hifi." A suggestion that his spending time on audio gear is less noble than what your "sense of public duty" compels you to spend your time on. I don't know if you meant it that way, but that's how it comes across.
If so: that same "dig" could be made about every single person in this forum and in this hobby. "Don't you have BETTER, more noble ways to spend your time/money than posting on an audio forum, or on the audio/music hobby?"
You find listening to music as your getaway, your way of spending your spare time. Amir or others enjoy understanding and measuring audio equipment, and sharing that information with others who are interested. Such is the variety of life.
One can just say "I'm not really interested in spending my time measuring equipment. It's not something I'm that interested in."
That's pretty much the case for me. I'll leave that to others more interested and technically inclined than I am do that.
If someone tells me I’ve said something "fallacious," I don’t take that as a put down. They are doing me a service -- helping direct me to what is false. Because I prefer not to believe or claim false things. @amir_asr then goes to explain why it is fallacious. Those who interpret this as a personal attack just prove Amir’s point that some here are not interested in facts. (You don't agree with his argument that it's fallacious? Fine. Then rebut him. But don't take it personally.)
The test of this would be to point out to Amir that he has made a mistake and see if he takes it personally or if he tries to verify it or rebut it -- with facts. Dispassion is the mark of science. If one cannot live up to that virtue, then they are not being scientific.
We’re all after audio quality, right?
Audio quality costs money. Any money one is saved by successful tests and measurements, and borne out in listening, is money which can be directed to the true weak links rather than the false weak links.
I dont understand why people are so polarized... With agressivity...
Amir do a free service that is and will be welcome...Dont kill the messenger...
Some of his disciples did not do the job he did, take is measures as absolute truth about hearing and audio , and quarrel about cables...These i like much less than Amir...
I dont like people who will judge me to be an idiot or a fool because i have faith in my hearing history and the way i will use or not my biases... it is like idiots saying to the patient doctor that he will die anyway because the pill is only sugar, and the placebo effect is not a drug... Do you catch how some stupid people are fool even when they are right ?
Blind test is for industrial marketer and for Amir needs, they are not designed to be used for listener in their acoustic room tuning process or with their gear...It can be fun and i did it with a friend young...But a fun test is not debunking work... Amir will do it and we will thank him for the information it gives us... But we will be free in our living room...Why? Because biases are not only negative door for auditory illusions created by the market; they are also our positive tools and motivation and these biases we must tame them by acoustic experiments, not erase them by looking at numbers or conclusion from an electrical graph...Acoustician listen a room they dont look electrical graphs..
Audio is simplistic matter only for gear centered mind, audio is in truth very complex psycho-acoustic and acoustic field of research..
For me the two side here are fooled by the gear market strategy in the same way : they focus on gear POWER design and dont experiment with acoustic... They buy panels and call it job done... For me it is job not done at all... It is my perspective...
By the way difference between cables are dwarfed by acoustic impact...There is some difference and it was easy to spot by me when i pick two cables long ago to choose from...But this difference they are so small and subtle people never bothered with them in the past... Amir is right about costly cords, it is scam even if there is minuscule differences because it put the focus of people on the gear minutiae and then fool them about acoustic and audio...
Expression of hate in the two side are for me expression of the SAME IGNORANCE... We must learn how to listen and this learning history has nothing to do with what most reviewers do, changing the gear... Nothing... Psycho-acoustic cocepts are not electrical design concepts...
Kudos for the response to Amir's "fallacious comment" slur aimed at you. Sorry to hear about your challenges, hope all is improving. Will be interesting to see if any type of apology appears. If so, likely will be indirect and wrapped in a long lecture about measurements with graphs.
Shame on anyone that continues to defend Amir. Done, done, done with Amir and ASR.
In 1977 I went down to NYC and bought a twenty-foot pair of Polk Cobra Cable - $40 plus sales tax. It sure looked nice with its green-and-red Litz wire braided construction and nicely tinned ends! At home I didn’t notice any sonic difference compared to zip cord. It just looked like "audiophile" quality! I used it for a few years until I replaced it with a twenty-foot pair of Mogami 2477 Blue Neglex 14ga OFC copper coax - again only $1 a foot - my friend owned a local high-end store. It sounded the same to me as the Polk cable but looked more serious in an engineering sense!
@amir_asrI'm sorry you feel that way; the fallacious comment that is
Just for some context, I returned to HiFi following a 25 years or so hiatus. There were a couple of reasons for doing so. I came back in 2021 once local dealerships reopened, as this was in the midst of the pandemic.
I work in the UK's National Health Service (NHS), working in a large Mental Health Trust in my local region. In the Summer of 2020, at the most impactful (scary) period of the COVID pandemic, I was diagnosed with a rare blood condition (basically a blood cancer) only curable via bone marrow transplant, but mitigated by certain meds.
From a sense of duty to the NHS and my little corner of it, managing 1500 people and being co-responsible for clinical staffing in our mental health wards, I carried on working. By the early Summer of 2021, the stress levels for all of us working in the NHS had reached critical levels, affecting my own and my immediate team's mental health. I needed some kind of distraction or release, hence my decision to jump back in to the hobby.
Music has always been a passion since early childhood; in my younger years I was a singer/song writer, sound engineer, venue manager, had a small band management company and organized small music festivals. So being too old for these activities, plus being committed to my regular job, I decided to distract myself from my condition and workplace stress, which was the most upsetting.
Many people died during worst of the pandemic; staff, patients, colleagues and their families, so being able to finish work for the day, kick back and lose myself in my music through my hastily put together system was an excellent,very welcome distraction from the carnage occurring all around me; extremely therapeutic and cathartic.
Apart from the actual virus having now dissipated to a large degree, the aftermath it left within the NHS has been disastrous for staffing; my job is to perform damage limitation. Basically the same stress, but without the Spectre of the virus hanging over our heads.
So you see, when I fallaciously sit down, kick back, throw some tunes on, I'm not really thinking graphs, charts, measurements, or how I can be saved from nasty audio manufacturers. I'm just trying to keep my sh*t together so I can get up the next day and do what I need to do for my NHS Trust, for my team, colleagues and most importantly, the patients under our care.
I wish I had nothing else to think about other than sitting around measuring bits of hifi, but my sense of public duty, and service to the public under our collective care, for me is part of my belief system, hence where I work.
As I started the post; I'm sorry you feel the way you do re: fallacious comment, but from where I'm standing, in the greater scheme of things and the real world issues I face every single day, both personally and professionally, how I listen to music; the stress relief it brings, the joy it brings, it's therapeutic value I benefit from ......priceless!
If this isn't the most blatant example of hucksterism then I don't know what is: Jay's Audio Lab's touting of the Transparent $80K "tuned" speaker cable - that looks like an anaconda snake after a large meal! Maybe some owner can lend a pair to Amir for testing?
Noel Lee with his clever marketing of his Monster Cable brand started the high-end wire business back in 1976. Before that everybody used gray Switchcraft IC's and Radio Shack zip cord. Nobody complained! Mr.Lee learned that it was possible to sell a fantasy without engineering credibility to the masses - and become rich in the process! Soon others took notice of Monster's success and the race was on to market wire to the naive, eschewing engineering rationale for "golden ear" fantasy and pseudoscience!
And it is useful...( i dont like though some objectivist rude behaviour at all , Amir on the other hand is polite by the way)
Myself i dont focus on gear as marketing do in audio and as Amir analyse in his own way...it is certainly useful to read other opinion...
I myself focus on acoustic and psycho-acoustic...Because it is relatively easy to pick basically good gear anyway, but way more difficult to figure out acoustic...And room acoustic impact at least on the same level than the most beneficial gear upgrade at high cost...
If someone can demonstrate to me that the heart of audio is not psycho-acoustic ... I bet i will quit audiogon...
i dont understand the GARP reaction ....Posting a definition can be useful... No ?
If you have a better definition of "stupidity" than this Italian economist, please enlighten us...
In a philosophical note, this definition remind me of the definition given in the form of a prayer by Christ : " Then Jesus said, ’Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing. ’
Then observe that the Italian economist definition is the same definition given by Christ on the cross, speaking of people doing something helpful to no one and not even to themselves, and doing something detrimental to others and to themselves too , if we think about it...
"Idiots" dont know what they are doing basically...
I am astonished by the convergence between these two minds, the Christ and Cipolla... Are you not either ?
It will be hard in my opinion, to improve on Cipolla definition of stupidity as described in a shortest way by Christ before him ...if someone can improve on this definition i want to listen to him ?
The book is free and in open source by the way...
i apologize , i like philosophy too much...
And sometimes something must be said in a clear way...
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