Whoa, Amir, is that you??? I had no idea you still ventured outside of your reformation kingdom!
Most folks here won't know we are half brothers and go back decades. How are you my friend?
What I talk about is elementary in audio science. So no, stating the need for a controlled test is not any attempt at looking like a guru.
1. Levels must be matched. This applies to active devices like electronics and passives like speakers/headphones. If you don’t match levels, you better not bother.
I almost spewed coffee out my nose reading this. I bet no one here or on Amirs Science Review knows about this old classic: Establishing Differences By The +/- 10% Volume Method 😉. Really glad you've come around on this. Presumably the new, reformed Amir is the real Guru now?
Btw, checked your Madrona site and another classic is still there! Glad you're keeping Bona fides with the hear this, that and the other crowd too.
Take care man.
p.s. you going to be at PAF next year too? I might come visit you and JJ
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@amir_asr you say you are one of the most open minded people yet you shut down a thread about Erins audio corner because you said the title was clickbait and people dissenting caused you to throw a hissy fit.
Ever seen Highlander? There can be only one.
In the case of Amirs kingdom ASR, there can't be 2 Supreme Leaders. Especially with another fancy Klippel NFS!
Btw, yes, Erin is the nicest guy in person. Hopefully Amir goes to PAF next year.
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Whoa, morning coffee and a triggered Amir ;-).
AJ (Soundfield)
If I were you, I would dig into who AJ is before siding with him. Fortunately his knowledge of audio science and engineering was nill so was easy to push back on his claim
Hey Amir, this is you advocating zero level matching, fabricating "blind" tests and being called out, correct?
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/establishing-differences-by-the-10-volume-method.1136745/
Who did you say knows nil? What was that about projection?
Of course a few years later he decided to build speakers in the garage
My "garage" speakers and audio science seem to do ok vs the big boys. https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/opinion/1762-the-best-of-florida-international-audio-expo-2023
That's why I keep asking if you're going to PAF next year again like this year. I'll set up some blind tests using my AVA ABX and my speaker turntables. Unlike you, I do real blind testing. This will be your chance, we'll test both various "SINAD" DACs and your choice of Revels (since you area a dealer, lest some forget) vs my garage stuff. Blind, level matched. If of course you decline, we'll understand ;-).
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why he hates Erins audio
Erin ruined egomaniac Amirs status as the only/coolest kid in town with a Klippel.
The irony of accusing Erin of monetizing his channel when "impartial" Amir is a full blown Harman dealer....
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By the way, Amir owns a Mark Levinson No 532 power amplifier that costs $20,000. I find it strange that Amir couldn’t find a much cheaper well designed amp.
Why would he, when he gets dealer pricing and MLs spank any AB type amps he's "listened" to? https://www.madronadigital.com/mark-levinson-53
But How Does it Sound
OK, lots of technical talk but does any of this impact the sound? You may know that there are two schools of thought here. One that says all amplifiers more or less sound the same. The other says the exact opposite with each sounding different like the smell of two different flowers. I won’t take a position in that food fight :). But instead, speak of a much less controversial issue of pure power delivery.
As I noted earlier, with the trend of less of efficient speakers and somewhat limited power available from our wall sockets, the amplifier can run out of steam before your desire for dynamics does. This usually translates into the amplifier sound becoming leaner at higher volumes, together with increased high frequency distortion, and less than impactful bass.
In comparison testing I have done, switching amplifiers using the classic class D configuration always sport incredible low frequency control and power. They beat out linear class AB amplifiers almost regardless of price. What they give up though is high frequency fidelity which I find somewhat harsh. The distortion is highly non-linear and challenging to spot but it is there. The Mark Levinson No 53 is the first switching amplifier I have heard which does not have this compromise. Its bass is amazingly authoritative: tight and powerful. Yet the rest of the response is absolutely neutral and pleasant.
If you have not heard these unique amplifiers, I highly encourage you to come into our showroom for a listen.
I think you guys are being too hard on Amir, he's a lot more like you than you think.
The reformed new Amir does do some nice measurements occasionally though.
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@amir_asr ever consider changing ASR to Amirs Measurements Science Review, since zero listening tests are/will ever be done? I seem to recall some very funny excuses as to why no AVA ABX box.
What are your thoughts of being subjected to an actual valid listening test at PAF 2024, with no peeking at your measurement devices for the first time ever and putting it on Youtube?
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@soundfield like I said I would pay to see this, and he won't answer you because he has selective hearing.
Amir doesn't monetize or accept payments. Just donations. So you'd have to "donate".
Interested in those ML amps at Madrona that have better bass than any AB amps, according to Supreme Leader? Donate at the cash register.
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If you believe in blind tests, how come you are not arguing with folks here saying they are not useful? Not convenient for business AJ?
Amir, you kicked me off your "Audio Science" forum for being "too objective", because I insisted only valid listening tests mattered, not "SINAD" and "ETC" many of your cult worship. "Valid" in the same sense that you didn’t get to administer your own Math tests in school, lest you always get an A. As I pointed out earlier, you have a long history of fabricating "Blind" tests. Foobar ABX can and has been gamed. There are threads about it on HA. Again you forget you posted a picture of the real time analyzers you use on the test signals, plus admitted to cranking up the silence to cheat. What you will never do is a public test administered by someone else. You know, the bare minimum standard used for AES, JJ, Toole, etc. Your gamed online Foobar tests wouldn’t pass basic paper submittal review.
Attending PAF next year? 😉
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When I asked you for blind tests of your speakers
Yes, in your blind rage you still can't say specifically what I am to blind test my speakers for/against, unlike your faked ABX test which were purportedly detection/difference tests for sampling/bits. Laughable that you post someone else's speaker preference tests, the kind you don't do!
Which is exactly what I'm proposing for PAF 2024, you taking a blind test administered by someone else where you can't game/fake it. I'd be happy to do a test of my speakers vs your Revels. Don't be scared ;-)
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You claim I jump in there telling people better measurements = better sound after others say so. You don't see me saying anything there.
Exactly! There was a perfect opportunity to clearly state that most of your measurements fall well below audibility thresholds AND, even if they are perceptible, there is no clear evidence one is preferred over another. You do ZERO valid listening tests. Yet you not only "Rank', but routinely "Not recommend" products based solely on measurements with zero listening test correlation.
Of course your house of cards collapses if you preferred a "higher distortion" not recommended DAC over a top ranked SINAD champ one in an administered by someone else listening test. Or hear no difference at all.
You are the exact opposite of someone like Toole. Amusing when folks even in this thread, say they only buy stuff based on your Pied Piper recommendations ;-).
How about an Amir DAC blind test at PAF not run by Amir, with no view of real time analyzers?
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People were rude in the other thread about AJs speakers which I think you let go on because you don’t like Soundfield or AJ. You never shut it down until it was too late and everyone was hostile. For the record I don’t have a dog in this fight, as I think that speaker search was suspect and I have a feeling was AJ trying to post his product on your website by some other member.
The first part is obvious, the latter is outright slander. I had no clue who MKR was until he contacted me after reading this https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/opinion/1762-the-best-of-florida-international-audio-expo-2023 , like anyone reading the internet could. Which was well into his months long speakers search. Actually I was overwhelmed with interest after that article, which had zero to do with any thread on ASR. I'm a small manufacturer always at maximum capacity, I can't handle more orders or interest like the type from ASR. That's a complete BS insinuation you made, essentially calling MKR a shill. He's a real person, like Duke Lejeune, who has known MKR (his real initials) for decades. I don't advertise and don't need to use shills. Unlike many like yourself, I don't hide behind an online pseudonym. I use my real name/initials/company and exhibit publicly all the time.
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You have no background in psychoacousts, measurements or even electronic design.
The moment you go above that level, then it becomes shades of gray which requires interpretation. A skill that our soundfield friend does not remotely have.
This is laughable projection, everyone on internet can read your "skill" here: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/establishing-differences-by-the-10-volume-method.1136745/
It's comedy gold Amir:
amirm · #2 · Apr 7, 2009
The comparison was then conducted without knowing which input is which, sitting in front of the headphone amp and toggling back and forth. When necessary, I would go back and re-listen. Once I found which one sounded worse, I would then repeat the exercise by randomizing the inputs and seeing if I could still identify which one was worse. My success rate was 100% in the second test (i.e. could always verify that the first result was not by chance). This testing was repeated a number of times comparing the different sources against each other and the ML.
I did not level match anything. However, once I found one source was worse than the other, I would then turn up the volume to counter any effect there. Indeed, doing so would close the gap some but it never changed the outcome. Note that the elevated level clearly made that source sound louder than the other. So the advantage was put on the losing side.
Your projections are fun stuff ;-). You have never ever posted a blind test not administered by yourself. That's why I'm proposing you do one at PAF, administered by others, then posted on Youtube.
Instant classic 😄
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I’ve got an idea. You send Amir a set of speakers to measure and he submits to a listening test. Trade.
Erin is a LOT closer, has Klippel NFS and is far more knowledgeable, especially since he has experienced my speakers himself and would thus not be utterly confused by the variable directivity and diffuse, delayed indirect radiation measurements, as Amir would. Amir is too much of an egomaniac to ask someone he knows who understands exactly what I'm doing, JJ..Amir developed Blue Screen as an MS middle manager. He has no clue about this stuff. See my link above.
Btw, I do full measurements myself and anyone who has bought my speakers has access if/when needed.
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Hope everyone had a happy 4th spending time with friends and family, celebrating our independence.
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 01:10pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 01:25pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 01:32pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 01:41pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 01:50pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 05:23pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 05:27pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 05:41pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 05:55pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 07:10pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 07:20pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 07:23pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 08:03pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 11:19pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 11:23pm
amir_asr 07-04-2023 at 11:46pm
amir_asr 07-05-2023 at 02:55am
Wow, Amir, get help. Most of those posts were epics. This isn't healthy. The raving egomania is one thing, but I feel sorry for your family here now, on what should have been time spent with them on a fun day. Take it easy man, you can't save them all, especially when you need to look inward.
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It would seem that Amir is in fact a perfect example of the type of hobbyist that you describe here. A pure objectivist, who simply will not trust his ears regardless of what they are telling him, relying instead on what his vaunted measurements are showing.
No. Not true at all. What you describing is a person like @soundfield. He is the one that will ridicule you at mere mention that anything sounds different in audio. He has no use for your ears or any possibility that technically something may have an audible effect.
Hey Amir, only one of us is an ex MS millionaire, I won't be able to afford it if you start charging me rent living inside your head!
Ok, so which is it, I have zero knowledge and do no measurements etc,like you claimed before, or all I do is measure and no listening like above??
Is there something called bipolar egomania? So essentially, these were based purely on measurements (which is actually true), but since I don't listen, got lucky that others are gobsmacked by the sound?
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/03/17/florida-2019-soundfield-audio-vac-nad-big-sound-or-little-you-decide/
https://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php/shows-events/florida-international-audio-expo-2023-tampa-usa/1060-fiae-2023-soundfield-audio-obelisk-t710-the-most-ambitious-loudspeaker-system-at-the-show
Is it possible that I do know what I'm doing and you have no clue what you're talking about? How many speakers did you measure prior to getting the NFS a year or 2 ago?
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But yes, there are some people who are extremist in both camp. As I have explained and show, @soundfield is one of them. They give our cause a bad new and I am sure the same is true of some in your camp.
So that's a yes at PAF 2024? A controlled listening test with you as a participant.
What would you have to fear vs a "garage show operation"?
It should at minimum make for a fun Youtube video ;-)
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JA is fully aware of it but doesn’t apply a correction leaving you guessing as to what the response really is. Fortunately sometimes he say this in the review.
Petty BS, JA makes clear its a nearfield response and that's exactly what is shown. Your measurements show the anechoic response with baffle diffraction loss aka step. BOTH methods show only approximate output depth extension, NEITHER can predict the actual in room LF response, which will dominate.
He badly needs the same system I have but he is not going to get the funding from his subjectivist heavy owners and editors.
More petty egomania BS. JA needs a NFS as much as Kevin Voecks did when he designed your Salon 2s. Or JJ when he made his current speakers at Immersion. Folks with far more knowledge about loudspeaker design/measurements than you have, managed just fine without NFS's. That egomania thing again.
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Would that be because Kevin had access to world class anechoic chambers?
Right, NOT an NFS. Ditto for Andrew Jones, etc,, etc, etc.
We all did fine before NFSs, every speaker designed before a few years ago and since. Including Amirs own Revel Salon 2s. NOT designed/measured with NFS.
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Sorry, no. JA's measurements assume you flush mount the speaker in an infinite wall. No stand alone speaker is used that way. As such, his measurements overexaggerate the bass energy. JA states the same: "The usual excess of upper-bass energy due to the nearfield measurement technique, which assumes that the radiators are mounted on a true infinite baffle, ie, one that extends indefinitely in both horizontal and vertical planes, is absent."
Once again, JA makes it clear its a nearfield measurement without correction, it's up to the viewer to read his speaker measurements section. And you to read your own website where long time speaker designers explain.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-make-quasi-anechoic-speaker-measurements-spinoramas-with-rew-and-vituixcad.21860/#post-726171
There is no way for you to predict where a speaker is located in a room as to provide any diffraction loss compensation.
That's because you don't know what baffle diffraction loss is, it's based purely on the size/shape of the baffle, relative to wavelengths, not "location in room".
And again, ultimately, correction/EQ below transition must be made based IN ROOM, not anechoic. The nearfield and/or anechoic is of limited use other than to compare speaker vs speaker in terms of extension. EQ will be needed regardless of how measurement is presented.
JA's measurements are fine and often done in situ, unlike yours, Genelec, Neumann, PSB, Revel, etc.
He's not bringing an NFS to his reviewers home. His quasi-anechoic on/off axis >300hz or so and nearfield below, along with in room (mostly) are suffice. Claiming that he needs an NFS is petty. Voecks also did just fine for your Salon 2s without.
NFS is a great tool, but certainly not mandatory for knowledgeable designers.
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To wit, you haven't even post a measurement of the speakers you sell. Some cost as high as $15,000 yet all we have is a picture of them.
That won't matter to your ears in a controlled listening test. Your speakers measure well, rank highly in controlled listening and cost more. Its seems you would have zero to fear.
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In contrast, garage show operations like yours will make a crude gated measurement or two and call it the day.
Great, then you shouldn't avoid at all costs a controlled listening text vs your speakers at PAF 2024 correct?
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2. Build the turntable or shuffler to handle large and heavy speakers.
I have 2 that handle 330lbs and have done such testing for a while, both mono and stereo. You can't know any of this ensconced inside your little kingdom.
You only need to concern yourself about one thing, taking a controlled listening test in public.
PAF 2024
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Duke it out?? You're going to do a public listening test with your favorite speakers.
Both you and the Youtube audience should have lots of fun. Its listening to music Amir, not an octagon cage match. Have no fear.
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What is your fear of posting measurements
Hopelessly biasing you like your reviews.
Since a garage show operation can't have better measurements (from your limited understanding) , have no fear.
and results of controlled tests? Do they not exist? Are they not flattering?
Stay tuned for a Youtube vid after PAF 2024
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Now measurements of speakers are not useful because they bias people?
Measurements are all I use, so they are very useful, but for you prior to review, a bias. It shows in every speaker review you do. JA and Erin pointed this out to you, the latter you banned.
The only thing you’ll need for a listening test is your 2 ears, the same ones that can hear Class D bass vs AB. No 10% volume thing will be allowed though.
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To do so, you need to come back with an ears only test. Why is it so difficult to accept when all you talk about is "trust your ears?" How come you must see what you are testing?
I want to see the measurements. I like to see the measurements.
We know Amir, we know. But you'll have to trust your ears for once.
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I am not reviewing your speakers. I want to see the measurements
You’ll be listening to them, same thing. You didn’t see measurements at Harman of the various speakers prior to listening on the shuffler. Trust your ears Amir, have no fear. Your speakers measure just fine, don’t worry.
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But what about those measurements?
You will see them after the listening, the correct sequence unlike all your "reviews".
To do so, you need to come back with an ears only test. Why is it so difficult to accept when all you talk about is "trust your ears?" How come you must see what you are testing?
Exactly. See, your own words say it best. You will only need your ears at PAF 2024. Or excuses ;-).
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Why? Set up the test. Show the people here that they can't tell the difference between high res and CD as you like to claim.
Umm, where did I claim that? Plus its a fools errand to seek negative proof, not mine. I'm far more interested in you demonstrating that you can, especially with someone else running the test. Sans any view of the signal analyzers of course 😉.
I see where you got confused. Almost all of the ASR video content has the analyzer in the background. None of these tests were run during that video. Every test I have been showing predate my youtube channel by 5 or more years (see the dates in ABX tests and the ones for videos). In the video, I am just showing the results, not running them then. This should have been quite obvious.
Ok, so you confirm those are indeed signal analyzers, Oscilloscopes etc that could theoretically real time analyze and identify signals, visibly. Cool.
As such, your claim that I had an analyzer running at the same time of the ABX testing is totally false.
Well, there is no way for us to know that definitively now, is there?
That's why you didn't grade your own Math tests in school (and score 100% all the time!). It's good to have independent oversight.
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I have most definitely pass double blind tests of high-res vs CD. Keep in mind that a high-res vs CD test can NOT be done in a browser. I know because my team at Microsoft wrote the audio stack.
So Amir, if you knew all about blind testing at MS, how do you explain this AFTER you retired?
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/establishing-differences-by-the-10-volume-method.1136745/#post-16216826
I did not level match anything. However, once I found one source was worse than the other, I would then turn up the volume to counter any effect there. Indeed, doing so would close the gap some but it never changed the outcome. Note that the elevated level clearly made that source sound louder than the other. So the advantage was put on the losing side.
Which version of Amir is to be believed above?
I not only passed this test, but I created a video on how I managed to do that. It required knowledge of signal processing of what you lose when going from 24 bit to 16 bit, and of course, training required to be able to hear such small differences. Here is the video which again, I post earlier:
https://youtu.be/0KX2yk-9ygk
Ah, the video where you are sitting in front of all the electronic analyzers that you used to visually real time analyze the ABX signals?
How many tests have you passed not run by Amir?
Would you do a proctored one at PAF 2024? Or only doctored?
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@soundfield
And flat FR is sometimes boring.
Virtually useless and perhaps harmful for deciding which sounds better.
As a speaker maker, what do you have to say about this? Is CEA-2034 frequency response measurements "virtually useless" and "perhaps harmful" in determining the fidelity of the speaker?
He must be talking about an amplifier or DAC. Loudspeakers have an infinite number of FRs radiating 3 dimensionally, not "A" flat FR.
Speaking of which, your Salon2s have good on/off axis FR and full bandwidth, no subs needed. You game for a blind test vs some garage speakers at PAF '24?
I don't have a pair of large remote turntables and AVA ABX remote box, etc, etc, nor do any blind listening tests, so have no fear, they'll do just fine.
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I would *love* for you to set up such a blind test for everyone who comes to your room there. Are you going to do that and publish the results at the end?
Only if you promise to be one of the everyone.
It wouldn’t be my first large scale/show blind test, only the first where participants would be aware.
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As an aside, conducting a proper audio double-blind test is tricky business. I've seen it done and it's not as easy as it looks. When they’re well conducted, I’ve found that many differences become harder to distinguish than might be expected.
Well, a good test would have both positive and negative controls. Training also.
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There is no such video. Stop making stuff up AJ. I have never, ever used an analyzer when taking these blind tests.
Umm, over your right shoulder, in background
Edit, can't embed image but its on the video
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Well, pardon me. Do tell: can an audiophile tell the difference between high-res and CD with identical masters?
That serves only as a misdirection. You are claiming/showing a purported successful test. By you.
What theory? Two files that are presented as 24 bit/96 kHz while in reality one has a true dynamic range of 16 bits, can NOT be analyzed with any tool I have.
Hmmm, so the Great Amir can't measure it, but can hear it. My my, that sure sounds audiophile myth familiar doesn't it? Coming from the Great one??
Ok, not buying 😉. We both know you can/have measured the difference and already confessed on your forum how to cheat such a test by cranking the silence to give away the lower bit depth. Remember?
Ok, so combine that recent occurrence with this long ago one: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/establishing-differences-by-the-10-volume-method.1136745/page-21#post-16385934
Nothing that complicated. I give it one out of three chances to be wrong, based on more than a decade of conducting double-blind and subjective tests and formal evaluations of my hearing. In other words, I know what percentage of time I have made a fool of myself in such tests . Versus being right.
We then have a long and established record of you being disingenuous about your self testing. So what I'm suggesting is you show this remarkable ability at PAF 24, proctored.
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In other words: there is nothing in principle wrong with reporting hearing a sonic difference that one has not measured
@prof
Yes of course his acolytes will head in sand defend the emperor, ignoring all facts like he both knows what he’s testing, has the knowledge and means to measure/analyze the difference in signals with the equipment he is pictured with, has confessed to having cheated by cranking low level/silence, etc, etc, etc.
Never mind the long history of fabricating tests aka the AVS link.
All that it to be ignored, in the name of science, you know.
Wanna bet he can’t repeat the feat proctored and unable to cheat, like at PAF 24?
Or more likely avoids any proctored test at all.
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@amir_asr
He says I am unable to tell such files apart and by implication, he can. Can he AJ?
I'm saying you can't tell them apart without the cheating you've both admitted to and denied simultaneously. The latter, about the now measurements guru/former Microsoft exec Amir being unable to measure the difference between bit depth/noise floor/etc.of computer files, even manipulated, is comical.
Not quite this level https://www.avsforum.com/threads/establishing-differences-by-the-10-volume-method.1136745/page-21#post-16385934
I don't care what Kevn believes, you are the one posting the gamed Foobar ABX files as retroactive bragging rights after the AVS debacle above.
This is exactly the type of test I'm proposing for PAF 24, that you take and demonstrate ability to detect difference between 16/44 and Hi rez...but without any of your analyzer gear around and being proctored/overseen for the first time, i.e. not allowed to crank silence etc methods of cheating.
I already know you are going to use the Salons are too heavy excuse, so which Revels are suffice vs a garage speaker? I have Revels too.
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