@lancelock Yeah I noticed that, will be specific with the electrician to follow orders. Also apparently the drain wire should be connected to earth at only the fuse box end.
Dedicated 20 Amp Line for Audio
Lots of threads on the subject already, but I’m a little confused on one thing. Is the dedicated line just for the amplifier (in my case an integrated) and another line for the other components? Or, is it just one line for everything in the complete audio system?
Thanks!
69 responses Add your response
@lancelock I just got some of the new LC-Y EVO cable from Gigawatt to upgrade the dedicated line. Cannot wait to hear what its like compared to stock. |
toddalin - WOW!
jerryg123 - +1
jea48 - thx Think I'm going to go with this: 12AWG Cryo-Treated Romex Electrical Wire (ft) (audiosensibility.com) for my 30' run.
|
Well we did it today. The run was 121’ of 8-gauge wire, with another 2 feet to run between the plugs. Seeing as how I had a 125 foot spool of wire, I cut it pretty close!
It is not easy, but not impossible to feed in and jumper the 8-gauge between two hospital plugs in the dual wall box, but using the deep box, we managed.
I also ran RCA panels with six leads from the inside to the outside of the entertainment cabinet to allow me to access various aspects of the system from outside of the cabinet. For example, this would let me bi-amp if I so desired.
Just need to mud a couple slots in the drywall and paint now. |
| Post removed |
I installed a single 8-gauge, 20-amp line/breaker with the thought that if all of the equipment is on the same source, neutral, and ground, it should be less likely to hum or develop ground loops.
If one were to pull two lines from the two busses, which line would you use to ground a metal outlet box, or would you use both grounds on the box??? |
millercarbon - gotta love those 90’s and pullin’ yer wire! Yes, cryo is good. At one time I was a sales rep for Black Sand Cable and all our power cords were cryo’d, prided ourselves on the fact.thyce - very informative, thank you, but plug directly in to the wall socket. I presume you have whole house surge protection?
The way I’m reading it so far (Fremer included) is just one dedicated line for audio. |
Elimination of daisy chained outlets is huge. Mine was wired that way at first. Of all the things I have done with AC - cryo, 4awg, 240/120 step down - the biggest was the cheapest, eliminating the daisy chain going direct. Considering this was the first thing I did, way back in the 90's when my system wasn't nearly as transparent and revealing of improvements as today, that is really saying something.
|
cleeds:
bpoletti
Dedicated lines can avoid the noise and voltage drop that may result from daisy chained convenience circuits. It’s a difference you can measure, so it’s silly to debate it. Many users do both. It's not an either/or choice.
I stepped in some of that the last time I crossed the pasture. It wasn't hard to scrape off my shoes but left a lingering odor.
Physics and engineering does not support your claim. |
Audio gear is unique compared to the average appliance that the electrical system in your house was designed to accommodate a century ago. The original pioneers in household electrical design were designing around predictable resistive loads like toasters and incandescent lamps that demand X amount of amps continuously, but modern amplifiers are extremely dynamic electrical loads. Also, most amplifiers are more sensitive than you may think to the many different challenges presented to them by home wiring and nearby equipment. Even if you aren't actually fixing a problem that exists now, you are future-proofing your audio room so it can accommodate larger amplifiers or future nearby noise producing appliances. I commend you for your effort and your sound system will reward you with better sound. You are getting great advice from previous posts but I would like to add two recommendations. The single best thing I can recommend you do to eliminate most of those electrical problems is have a small subpanel installed very close to your audio gear and only use one electrical phase for all of the audio gear no matter how many breakers you decide to install. For example installing a 24 space subpanel you could have a maximum 12 breakers for audio gear leaving another 12 unused breaker spaces. This way you will have much larger wiring running most of the way to your amplifiers that can easily supply the instantaneous current they demand. Then, if you want to use 12 AWG the last couple feet to your outlet it doesn't matter much, but I prefer to use 6 AWG in conduits feeding a single audiophile outlet. An audiophile power cord that doesn't break the bank like a Pangea Audio AC-9 MkII Power Cable uses 7 AWG so using a similar size wiring in the wall would make sense. After your licensed electrician has finished the work you can hide your electrical subpanel behind a picture or sound treatment panel. The electrician may give you grief for requesting oversize wire but they won't refuse to install it like they would if you were requesting undersized wire which would be a safety issue. The next best thing you can do for your system is plug your amps directly into an outlet because almost all but the most expensive power conditioners will make your amps sound worse. If you insist on plugging your amplifiers into a power conditioner, then buy something like the AudioQuest Niagara 7000 that can handle the instantaneous current demands of an amplifier. |
I don't know about the difference in price, but I do know the difference cryo makes. The guy who runs Cryo-One in Orting is into shifter karts, when he heard I was PCA track instructor we hit it off and so now I know all about cryo. Pulled all my wire and had him cryo, 50 cents a pound. So I know exactly the difference cryo makes from having heard the same wire in the same system before and after. |
Again, how do you know all this stuff! This is perfect, as I work in Canada (getting paid in Dollarettes) so I can ship it to my office there and just bring it across the border myself and hopefully save a bunch on shipping. The electrician will be on-site very soon and I will see how much we need before I order it. Thanks again for all your help! |
lancelock - Looks intersting (and expensive). I will contact Well pleased Audio on Monday and check it out. auxinput - invalid: I was starting to think #10 was the ticket, but you’re right #12 with it’s better flexability should be sufficient. Or possibly the product lancelock recommends above? If I’m only running one line (most recommended way to do it here) I will need less than 50’ |
A note on 10awg romex. Yes, the wire is extremely stiff and you may not be able to install it. You CANNOT fold this wire when pushing the outlet back into the box. It is just too stiff. When I did mine, I had to run the Romex straight through the wall from behind into the junction box and then "square bend" one wire at right angles so that there's enough space. A 12awg romex would definitely be much easier to handle.
If you have the room in your wall you can use a deeper outlet box to make the job easier. |
I used this https://www.gigawatt.eu/produkt/in-wall-cable-gigawatt-lc-y-3x4-mk3/ for my dedicated line, 11ga, flexible and directional. It ssounds incredible. |
A note on 10awg romex. Yes, the wire is extremely stiff and you may not be able to install it. You CANNOT fold this wire when pushing the outlet back into the box. It is just too stiff. When I did mine, I had to run the Romex straight through the wall from behind into the junction box and then "square bend" one wire at right angles so that there's enough space. A 12awg romex would definitely be much easier to handle. |
A search on The Cable Company site shows audiophile grade in-wall cable from JPS Labs and Audience. There is also a highly regarded British cable manufacturer who offers an audiophile grade in-wall cable, but the name escapes me at the moment. They are not inexpensive, but in the context of an upper echelon system they are not outrageous. |
Dedicated lines can avoid the noise and voltage drop that may result from daisy chained convenience circuits. It’s a difference you can measure, so it’s silly to debate it.
Many users do both. It's not an either/or choice. |
Why a "dedicated circuit" when everything gets lumped together upstream of the comnpponent? Separate line for digital? Horse schlockey. If the line goes through a fuse box with "analog" circuits, then the purpose is defeated. If the dedicated line comes into the house seperately, then it will still be pary of a general cirsuit somewhere upstream without any filtration. And there's typically enough RF in the air that using a separate circuit will still end up being a long radio antenna. If an audio user really desires isolation, it might be better to get a hospital grade isolation transformer of sufficient capacity to handle .the equipment load Or two. Or three. Whatever tickles your fancy. Be careful to check the grounding across equipment in different transformers. |
I recently had a room built for audio only (18 months ago? how time flies). My audio conscience electician wired a 20 amp dedicated line (less than 20 feet from the box) to a single outlet. I have a conditioner/distribution unit with all electronics hooked into it. My lights and electrostatic speakers are on a separate new line. Happily, my house is the second one from the local transformer and I live in a residential neighbourhood far from any Industrial or Retail complex. Very little to zero line noise. I am happy.... |
I am currently in the process of doing this wiring and in fact just today installed the 20 amp breaker in the panel and pulled and tacked the 8-gauge from the box up through the attic and to the wall where it will come down to the entertainment center. I still need to come down through the wall and will probably just cut and remove the old 15 amp wire and use that as the wire pull through the wall. All plugs are 20-amp hospital grade (with the green dot) and will accept the 8-gauge wire. We have solar panels and an inverter. I’ve heard that these can add noise on the line. I put a ferrite bead over the wire right where it comes out of the panel. May not help anything..., but couldn’t hoit. |
auxinput - thank you. I am kind of narrowing this all down with the help of you and the others that have so kindly posted here! |
14awg is the MINIMUM you can do for a 15A circuit. If it's a long run, then 12awg is recommended. That is based on electrical code requirements. However, there is a definite difference in current capability between 14awg and 12awg romex, even on low current source components. I've tested this in my room when I tried 14awg romex to my preamp/processor. It just did not sound as open and the sound did not hit with as much authority as when I did a 10awg romex. You can use 8awg, but you are only going to get stranded wire and you will need to run this in conduit (per electrical codes). Only romex can be run bare through walls and in ceiling/attic. I would rather have solid-core 10awg or 12awg romex than stranded 8awg (but there are others with different opinions). |
cakyol - simply stated, thank you. |
A dedicated 20 amp line will be able to supply about 2400 watts. I am assuming you are using the appropriate cable for your 20 amp outlet (12 awg romex is more than enough). You SHOULD connect EVERYTHING to it without hesitation. Contrary to popular advice of spreading your devices to multiple outlets, connecting ALL devices to a SINGLE outlet will give you additional benefit of minimizing or completely eliminating ground loops. You have nothing to worry about.... unless you intend to connect a welding machine to the same outlet too :-) |
Probably because you came to learn and Fremer and I came to share what we've learned. There is so much to learn. Like, did you notice? Fremer started out saying "lines" then caught himself. So he learned. But first he learned "lines" and had to unlearn to get better, and old habits die hard. I don't know how Fremer did it but I actually ran my room wired several different ways and heard the difference first hand. This was several years of my life figuring this stuff out. Same for Fremer too I bet. Am I reading that right, jw? 944 Turbo S? |
dseltz - currently (no pun intended) I have a Luxman 507 uXII integrated amp on a layaway plan with a local dealer. |
lt2917 - #8 wire? Wow! |
I have a very unusual house. Built in 1979, it is some kind of kit that was imported from Canada. It measures 20’ x 40’ with a vaulted ceiling running lengthwise. Most 110V outlets are currently on the floor as it is near impossible to get a wire up the wall from the crawl space. The bottom of the ground sill of the wall sits almost center over the concrete foundation with no room to get a bit at the right angle in there. You have to drill at an angle through the exterior sheathing, outside the house in order to get the right angle down into the crawlspace. Then you drill another hole in the interior wall to line up with where you drilled on the outside the house and fish your wire through that way. Then comes the fun part, you have to bust out all the white styrofoam. It’s as hard as concrete and sticks to you like glue, it’s a real messy situation. Also, I have found no 2 x 6 studs in the wall so far, just foam! The idea here is I thought I would save some money and do some of this work myself. Like running in this dedicated line for the stereo system rather than paying an electrician $100 an hour to fight with this. I’m sure they would not be very happy doing this job as well. Once I figure out what size, type and how many lines to run, I will purchase some wire, run it in, leave them long, and let the electrician terminate them accordingly, once on-site.
|
A question I would ask is what amp are you using? Difference between a 8 watt tube and a 500 watt ss can determine if you want to go with 14g My advice is 12/2 (likely will not hurt your hands) and will cover all amps RFI is everywhere (if you are on planet Earth that is lol) If you have 6 open legs in your breaker box make sure your box is not oversized for your line into the house.
|
OK, here’s what I got so far: I can run one circuit or two, or three, or four, or five, or six, either way. One line for digital and one for analog, but for the current draw of most audio systems, one should suffice. Every wire brings RFI into the line, but there’s no RFI’s here. 10 gauge wire for 20 amp circuit, 12 gauge wire for 20 amp circuit, but if you don’t want to hurt your hands, 14 gauge wire for 15 amp circuit. 12/3 - 12/2 (fortunately, I know the difference). hilde45 & auxinput - completely over the top! I didn’t ask about power cables or power conditioners? Metal sheathed wire is ok but so is Romex 14/2, 12/2, 12/3 or 10/2. Run conduit. Wait, that is all wrong! I need cryo- Romex, now what size was it? Great video, crapola video Heck, if I had chickens to feed they’d all be dead from starvation. No time to feed ’em, let alone watch the Fremer video (yet). I’m confused |
As my Audiophile friend electrician stated ,and Proved that a 4 wire , dual ground is very important one common ,the other a insulated isolated ground and preferred awg 11 or 10 li have awg10 Copper , even lower resistance and I use Pangea top gold Copper outlets, not a big name brand but very well built. and less then $100 each. |
| Post removed |
He needs 14/2 for 15 amp, 12/2 for 20 amp. He does not need 12/3...that includes 3 conductors, one of which is red. Both 14/2 and 12/2 contain the ground, it is not counted in the number designation. Keep it at one circuit run to avoid ground issues/loops etc. To assist in noise, buy at least an audioquest Niagara 1200. I’d also buy the audioquest Edison outlet or a furutech, beryllium-copper. I would top that off with a Fuutech faceplate designed to block rf signal interference...I also run a seperate furman power conditioner for all my low draw stuff. Only power hungry components are on the niagara...this also frees up plug space. Both of course are plugged into the Edison outlet. Don’t forget the power chords to complete this....I use AQ thunder, Z3, and X3 throughout. Also a Nordost blue heaven on my Technics TT. |
Another option: https://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html#bulkacwire VH Audio sells cryogenic treated 10 awg romex wire. It's a lot more expensive, but if you want the best that's the way to go. I am not currently running cryo-romex in my setup at this time (maybe in the future). |
that's fine, but make sure your 20A audio lines are ON THE SAME 110V RAIL/LEG. Also, I would not use 14/2 Romex or stranded wire. You really need 10/2 Romex (Romex is always solid-core which is better than any armored stranded wire). If you can't do 10/2, then 12/2 is acceptable. I don't know that you need a separate 20A line for each device like hilde45 recommends. It's all about current draw. You could probably run all source/digital components on one 20A circuit just fine. The other 20A would go to amplifier only. That being said, I have six 20A circuits run to my room. Each amp circuit only has one or two amps, but I'm totally overkill on my setup. You can probably run two small/medium sized amps on one 20A circuit just fine.
|
