pontus seems to be very good to me 1700 new
DAC That Punches Above Its Price Point
I’ll make it short. I’ve spent some hours reading the DAC threads on this forum. I am aware quality of digital matters as superior DACs usually the costlier ones will sound better than cheap DACs, making music sound more analog, lifelike, real, believable with all the soundstage and detail etc. All the good things. There are some who thought it’s the music that matters, and although different DACs may sound different it’s the music that makes the most difference. In other words, the differences that exist between DACs are not that important as it's all about the music. I can see the point that people are trying to make.
Back to the topic. I’ve read great things on the Denafrips Ares II and Pontus II, and other costlier high-end DACs. I’ve read about the Chord DAVE. I personally own a Chord QBD76 and have no urge to replace it with anything else since it sounds splendid in my system, for the money. I may be setting up another system and was wondering if there is a DAC in the lower price bracket that punches way above its price point, sounding close to if not better than the costlier designs.
I presume the Audioquest Black, Red or Cobalt are not worthy of consideration and sound noticeably inferior to the costlier options? FWIW I tried the Musical Fidelity M1 DAC and this one really sounded poor to my ears. Very digital sound and I stopped listening to it after a while. The Chord sounds a lot more analog, lifelike and real to my ears.
I would appreciate any advice. Thanks.
Back to the topic. I’ve read great things on the Denafrips Ares II and Pontus II, and other costlier high-end DACs. I’ve read about the Chord DAVE. I personally own a Chord QBD76 and have no urge to replace it with anything else since it sounds splendid in my system, for the money. I may be setting up another system and was wondering if there is a DAC in the lower price bracket that punches way above its price point, sounding close to if not better than the costlier designs.
I presume the Audioquest Black, Red or Cobalt are not worthy of consideration and sound noticeably inferior to the costlier options? FWIW I tried the Musical Fidelity M1 DAC and this one really sounded poor to my ears. Very digital sound and I stopped listening to it after a while. The Chord sounds a lot more analog, lifelike and real to my ears.
I would appreciate any advice. Thanks.
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@westcoast, let me clarify: measurements mean zero to me. If you are hung up on measurements then measure away but ask yourself if you are measuring the right things. Please explain how you measure something that we respond to at an emotional level. Sure measurements can get you in the ball park of good performance but are no guarantee of good sound. Also explain how two different amps that measure exactly the same can sound quite different. I can swap out a cap of same value in a speaker crossover and never mind 'blind', you would have to be deaf not to hear it but the XO point, it's knee and it's rate of attenuation will be the same and therefore measure the same ... but it sounds different! |
"measurements …. mean zero” ...being analog circuitry design engineer, I disagree with such attitude. if performance of audio devices cannot be measured, it cannot be designed to perform, or to be improved/manufactured as well. Good “Ole” days, “fair” sound check was done a “blind way”, where "sensitive ears and minds" didn’t know what exact device was used to produce the sound. I would love to hear “blind listening” comments on this topic. |
@herman, well said, I fully agree, measurements alone mean zero. ASR states that he does not need to listen because the measurements tell him what it will sound like! @romanesq For those who want to go the R2R route, it certainly sounds like their are good options on that front too for similar ballpark as requested here earlier but that also requires a preamp of unknown cost You make it seem like all R2R DACs need a preamp. Would you care to elaborate on that statement. The Wadia I mentioned in my post certainly doesn't. |
The best measuring DACs in the world based on the ESS9038 Pro can be had for less than $1k. I have an SMSL SU-9 and it outperforms basically everything that’s not based on the same chipset. Fully expecting everyone in here to only link to lower performing DACs for 4x the price though. Enjoy wasting your money! |
My take : I gave up on Vinyl 5 years ago and never looked back. Those LP’s are all ripped to my hard drive and on DVD discs for backup. To get that LP like sound from Digital as I learned won’t come from an AVR (Marantz SR5011) or from the DAC of a Sony BluRay player (UBP-X1000ES). DSD as I knew 20 years ago is the equal to a finely pressed LP (screw the haters). DSD over PCM to my ears doesn’t cut the Mustard (which I’m allergic to BTW). I knew not to waste my time and money on all those cheap ChiFi DAC’s being schlepped by various YouTuber’s and print magazines for that matter. I went PS Audio as a leap of faith and of course I’d already enjoyed their M700 Amps & Stellar SGCD/Preamp. I bought the PS Audio DirectStream DAC Sr. and got excellent deal via trade in of the SGCD and some secret discounts they offered me. After 30 days it didn’t go back and is still in my system almost two years later. I did a head to head Video last year against the Denafrips Terminator and my partially biased opinion still won me over with PS Audio. There were times as I mentioned in the Video where I forgot which DAC I was listening to. I’ve also listened to the Holo May DAC Kitsune Edition at two different friends’ homes but sadly not in my rig where it matters the most. I’m not a Trumper but I refuse to buy ChiFi on principle. Of course components in U.S. made are made in China 🇨🇳 and there nothing you can do about it. https://youtu.be/FHO07PFHj60 But I’d rather pay more for products designed and manufactured here that help pay for peoples mortgages, car loans, rent, and so forth. If I bought a cheapo DAC, it’d be Schiit for sure ! |
Yet another vote for.... wait for it.... the RME ADI-2. In my system, it's a revelation and for the money, you can't go wrong. It's certainly worth a try. For those who want to go the R2R route, it certainly sounds like their are good options on that front too for similar ballpark as requested here earlier but that also requires a preamp of unknown cost. Using the RME ADI-2 with tube amp mono blocks and no preamp. It's an astounding pairing. (I also run off battery power as others.) |
Another vote for RME ADI-2. Quite close to my PS Audio DirectStream, gets even closer with an upgraded PSU. Much more transparent than the Ayre Codex I purchased as a backup to the PSA when it went for service. The Ayre left me counting the days to get the PSA back; the RME does not and I could live with it very happily. |
I’ve had the Gustard X16 for less than a year and love it! ($500) That isn’t a review. It is a set of measurements. He doesn’t even mention if he listens to it. If you believe as ASR does that all that matters is how something measures then I suppose it is a review. But if you care about how something sounds, and that is really all you should care about, ASR is worthless. |
There is 2 types of dacs to get , R2R and sigma delta, the best R2R dac out there for the money is the Audio Mirror tub iii Se , MHDT also makes a good R2R tube dac ,the best sig dac for around 2 k is the matrix element M . The Chinese topping and SMSL dacs also should be up there also. RME ADi is another good sig delta. Lots of choices depending on your taste , clarity vs smoothness |
True value is out there but look at older units. Manley, Theta Gen. V or Wadia. I have a Wadia 15 that 'only' plays redbook and it is spectacular, not just for it's age but against anything available today. I also own a Bryston that somebody mentioned but hardly ever use it due to the superb performance of the Wadia! I am streamlining and trying to reduce the clutter and have on order a Mojo Mystique V3 to replace the 2 DAC's mentioned which will be for sale when I receive the new one. For the price of a DAC like this I feel nothing out there will come close, not in build quality nor sound. The 3 DACs in the first line are high-end units from a different era and are built like tanks. Think Mike Tyson 1st round knockout. PM me if you are interested in buying but I live in Ireland so postage might be heavy. Perhaps if you are lucky you can find one of these locally but getting very scarce. Also consider a CD player like Philips or Marantz (same PCB) The Marantz CD85 or CD94 use alloy transport and the TDA1541 chip, they sound great, solidly built and provide access to the internal DAC. Can find them for next to nothing and come from the same period as the heavyweights above. |
I'm not strictly an objectivist (I build and use tube amps that measure horribly by todays standards) but when it comes to DAC's I think getting the one with best measured performance is the way to go. That, and obviously the one that meets the functionality you require -- Balanced or SE ? Volume control/Preamp ? Toslink, Coax or just USB? Remote? Anyway, you don't need yet another component in the system that is a tone control. There are a ton of DAC's that have a SINAD of 110dB-120dB which guarantee's a fully transparent source. You can mix and match the amp (tube / SS) and/or speakers to tailor the sound. Various offerings from Topping, SMSL, Schiit Modi/Modius or at the higher end, the okto research dac8 stereo. It simply doesn't make sense to spend more than that on a DAC. Last comment, I disagree with the Codex recommendations. It is an OK DAC (I owned one a few years ago) but it uses the ESS 9016 chip which is a few generations behind by now. The headphone output isn't too great either. Any Topping DAC at a fraction of the price will perform much better. |
If you own a Chord DAC I can pretty much guarantee if you buy any $500 DAC your gonna hate it. I have never purchased any equipment that was let’s say off the top of my head 50% cheaper than what I owned or had owned in the same category ( amp/amp , DAC/DAC ) and been satisfied. I own a Topping E30 that I use with my headphones ( because I’m not a headphone guy and just use them late night when I can’t be playing my audio system ) and bought it when it was still $130. It is good but it’s a $130 DAC period, it’s not gonna compete in any way with a $400 DAC that’s why Topping makes a $400 DAC. I own a n RME ADI - 2 FS ( in my audio system ) and really like it , especially because of all of the features but I can’t say it’s what some of the hype made/ makes it as if it’s some end all option. Those that do I’m sure haven’t ever listened to a $2-3000 DAC. I am actually quite tempted to try an R2R DAC to compare as I own Focal 948 speakers that are quite detailed. DON’T LISTEN TO ONLINE HYPE!! Work on matching your equipment properly, that’s probably why your satisfied with the Chord DAC you own. |
My Denafrips Ares 2 DAC makes my system sound like I'm there...right on stage . CD's I never play are sounding totally "alive"...My Topping doesn't do that. It also has a "phase" button that really opens the soundstage. My speakers literally disappear. For $800 you can't touch it with anything else in that price range.....If your budget let's you go to $1600....get the Pontus, but if you go to you tube and hear the Denafrips DACs compared....The Ares 2 holds it's own very nicely. One of those rare Steals in Hi Fi....speaking of punching WAY above it's cost. Happy Listening.... |
@jerrybj.... interesting post. I am using a modded older Beresford that is around 10-15 years old. No USB, but I haven't needed one so far. Planning to upgrade server, so will likely need USB. This old DAC sounds really good. The modder, a local guy I know, sold it for $1000, but I paid half that used. But it tops out at 96/24. Also, how come no love for Schitt DACs on this thread? Thinking seriously about a Gumby. |
I've had the Gustard X16 for less than a year and love it! ($500) Check out review at ASR: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/gustard-x16-balanced-mqa-dac-review.17419 Purchase at Amazon or here: https://hifigo.com/products/gustard-dac-x16 Let us know which way you go! |
Another that is rather cheap, but very good, is the Beresford SEG. I have two, both with mods. Stan ( the designer) offers these. http://www.homehifi.co.uk/ |
Calvinandhobbes That is the kind of comparison info that is most helpful. Thanks for taking the time! I was curious though whether or not you used a re-clocker with any of those DACs. Did you? I tried a couple of DACs and the one that came highly recommended by my very experienced relative was the Ayre QB9 with the Twenty upgrade. I thought it sounded great in my system until I borrowed an Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker. Wow, what a difference In soundstage and vocals. It took away the digital edginess, which was minimal in my digital setup but, was there. |
As a diehard vinyl listener, I’ve actively avoided digital audio for the past 32 years until COVID struck this past year. With working at home for a year and a half now, the advantages of being able to change music without getting up became much more important than pre-COVID. So I built a front-end for listening to digital music both via local files and Qobuz streaming. As part of the process, I’ve listened to 8 DACs in the past year:
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Recently bought the Denifrips Aries II, could not be happier. The Denifrips seems to suit my system, Audiolab 6000 CDT, Vincent Audio Pre / Power Amps and Audio Physic Sitara 25 speakers, with twin subwoofers. I compared several DACs, in my system including the Chord Cutest, could not say which is best but preferred the Denifrips. Mytech Liberty, much preferred the Denifrips. iFi Neo, much preferred the Denifrips. In my desktop system I use the iFi iDSD BL its nice and very useful with my MacBook. In that system I tried Audioquest Black and red, preferred the iFi and also preferred my Meridian Explorer 2 which I use on the go. Have tried both the Musical Fidelity V90, sort of OK and the Project Pre - Box, horrible. So overall I regard the Denifrips as a true bargain. |
the Wyred4sound 10th anniversary dac is extremely good, I put it up against the Sim audio dac here in Canada which cost $15,00 and it was much better, one of the reviewers put it up against his $9,000 cos1 and he said the 10th anniversary dac was better and then he also put it up against Bricasti,Chord and a few other high price dacs he said the 10th anniversary was better, and another reviewer put it up against his VPI turntable with a $5,000 Japanese cartridge and he said the 10th anniversary was every bit as analog sounding, and I have to agree this is the most analog sounding deck I've ever had in my system, and my system is worth $60,000 Canadian.The 10th anniversary deck is $4,500 US. I would love to put it up against DCS to see how good it is, but this thing is so good I don't think I'll ever need another dac.Please go read the reviews. |
I've owned more budget DAC's than you can count. Also built a couple from diyinhk.com..... For me without a doubt the SMSL SU9 is the best sounding thing that has hit my system under 1k. Beware, I had to send it to SMSL to get a firmware update to eliminate a minor distortion issue. This DAC has many settings, the settings seem almost imperceivable differences, but once you go through many and get a combination that works, it performs VERY well. |
Here is one that is excellent and not ridiculously priced. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-e50-review-balanced-dac.26219/ Puts many high price DACs to shame. |
If you want to see punching, go to a boxing match..if you want the best DAC, I highly recommend the MSB Discrete, Premier, Reference or Select. People have different opinions that are meaningless in the context of your sound reproduction system and your auditory system. Listen to a variety of different DACS in your own set-up before you decide - do not rely on the opinions of other folks who mostly just post to a thread but do not listen to music!!! |
@Ryder Unlike other audio components, I don’t think you’ll find a “bargain” DAC who’s performance punches way above their price point. I’ve been looking for audiophile component bargains for the last 5 years including DACs so I can get the best price/performance components for my audio system. Also, buying used usually saves you significant $. If you like Chord DACs then you may be interested in upping the DAC sound with the Chord MScaler - although it can be used with any DAC there seems to be an even greater synergy when connected to the Chord Dave and likely other Chord DACs. |
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the RME-2 DAC fs. It most definitely punches above its weight. It sounds great, It has a ridiculously robust feature set, but is also very simple to use if you just want to hook it up and go. Very favorably reviewed across the board and has a killer headphone amp section to boot. Very hard to beat even with products well above its price range. |
