critique my setup -- weak link? best way to improve?
I just put together my first turntable setup after many years of listening to CDs only. It sounds pretty good -- good enough that I'm curious how to make it better. (: What weak link(s) do you see in this system? Where is the best bang for the buck?
Between the two of us we listen to a wide range of styles (symphony, choral, folk, indie, dark wave, metal). The one constraint is that the speakers can't be larger than about 20" tall and need to stand on a wooden sideboard/console type thing.
Sure it is, in football there is a place to start to improve the team, the offensive line is where I would start, again you can have Tom Brady....in his prime, won’t do you any good if the O line isn’t up to snuff, same with top running backs, won’t find a hole.
In audio...same thing where to start ? start with the source, some people say speakers which seems ok but think about it, do speakers make any sound, nope, they need to be hooked up to and amp via speaker wire, then preamp, then source.
The amp is more important than the speakers, preamp more than the amp, and guess what the source is the most important of all, if compromised there, the whole system is compromised . I mean would you put an original Sony CD player from the eighties thru an old 50 watt technics receiver into a pair of 10k speakers......you will get. a sound. I guarantee I could put together a system for FAR less and get a much BETTER sound.....all day.
One of my systems back then was a Linn LP12/Ittok/Black Koetsu cart/Mitch Cotter step up. into a NAD 3020 int amp into a pair of ADS 420 $350/pr speakers...I had them next to my Snell Type A large floor standing speakers, when I played the system for people they thought they were hearing the Snells, when I told them nope just the little book shelfs........man did jaws drop !
You will get WAY more bang for the buck with a $500 Bluesound Node and an $11/mth Qobuz subscription than any turntable/cart/phono stage upgrade at 4 - 5 X the price.
Spend the rest on upgrading your speakers. The used market will serve you well, just buy from someone with a lot of 100% favorable reviews here or on USAM.
Then maybe upgrade the pre-amp with all the money you saved not buying vinyl.
Cables later, lots of choices, buy used or from small direct to consumer sources like Frank at Signal Cable.
Just my 2 cents, and FWIW I started 6 years ago with a Pro-Ject Carbon Debut and look where I ended up - fortunately I’m still married, unlike this guy
All interesting inputs, I sold hi end audio for any yrs, and here it is
START with the source, get the best...(to your ears) source, then you have a reference to go by.....think of it this way, in football you have offense, defense, special teams, coaches, OC, special teams coaches, etc, the list is endless, where to start to improve the team.......the OFFENSIVE LINE.... I am from The Boston area, and you can have all the Tom Bradys you want, anemic O LIne...he is toast, weird analogy to be sure but it fits.......Source 1st....we had a demo of turntables with the same cart thru a Naim Nait and $300 speakers, the difference was quite clear and that was to people who knew nothing about hifi.....source 1st.
stringreen suggested “just enjoy.” That’s the right answer for this question almost every time. If you’re pretty interested in an upgrade that will add to the enjoyment with the greatest bang for the buck, that’s where the interesting part starts.
I’m sure that I’ve moved through equipment in the last decade, sometimes without fully hearing what an individual piece was ultimately capable of offering. If it were my system, I might try a different speaker cable, just to find out whether I can hear that fine of a difference.
Or I might try a different pair of speakers, as in that case I should definitely be able to hear a difference. This might also be true with a phono pre, but imo this would be easier to hear once the speakers were swapped out.
Seems most want to flaunt personal experiences rather than address the OP's question
when is not the case? Not only that, people sometimes just post links to what they are selling. Still, if you post a focused question, you will get a lot of useful advice
Other information that is not known, is how the TT is mounted?
Is the TT sharing the same structure as a seating the Speakers are seated on?
Speakers at 20"s Tall will usually be mounted on a Stand or Sub Plinth and Stand that is typically not much more than 24"s inches in height, but usually between 18" - 24" depending on the height that is ideal for the Tweeter. Usually the Tweeter is a little above ear level or on the same height level as the ear, when stands are being selected.
As a conjecture, is the Side Board 36"s ?
Are the Speakers Toed on the Longitudinal Plane if the Tweeter is too high, in conjunction with being Toed on the Lateral Plane? Getting this alignment correct will take a additional amount of tweaks, and Pads as footers on a Speaker are not offering the finesse of adjustments that may be required. A Sub Plinth under the Speakers will always being a improvement to how tidy a Cabinet Speaker End Sound is being perceived. In this case it can be suggested a Sub Plinth with Footers that offer a broad range of adjustment will be the best suited design. The Pads already in use will be useful for the Speaker on the Sub Plinth, but again I strongly suggest a suspension type footer for this role.
Getting the mounting method correct will be beneficial to any Speaker put in to service, the time spent will be future proofing.
The TT is much much more sensitive and getting the mounting structure correct for creating the environment the stylus function at it best will yield great rewards, again getting this correct for the environment the TT is set up in will be extremely beneficial if changes are made for a TT further down the road.
Both the above mounting methods are not going to cost much monies, there are DIY designs that are extremely effective, the main cost could be how it is appealing aesthetically. On a Cabinet, a method to keep costs down, I would suggest looking at Kiln Dried Sand Filled Plinths.
"Don’t listen to people telling you to "upgrade" those cables. They don’t believe in science and quantifiable facts. You’re 12AWG is way more than enough as long as it’s simple OFC. No cable will ever sound better."
Yet another example of willful ignorance, or- just your ignorance of the truth/facts/science, gleaned since the 1800’s, regarding electricity?
@matthijswith an OM10 you won’t get much benefit changing to something like a 2M Red. There are OM upgrades but I’ve never tried beyond a 10. When you change next time (if you like ortofon) it might be worth going to a 2M base. You can fit any of them (blue, bronze, black) to the base for a 2M red / Pro-ject Pick-it. I have even used a 2M black LVB on a red base, though you lose some sensitivity. I would go to at least a Bronze and then consider a LVB 2M Black (or later model) as the bronze gives the upgraded cartridge base.
In the phono stage / preamp. if you want to do multiple steps then as @emergingsoul said the Schiit are very good value. If you wanted to put in a phono stage for a large proportion of your first years budget but one which you wouldn’t need to change until you’d considered spending $4k+ on a turntable+cartridge and have $6k+ on amp and speakers. Then I would strongly suggest a Whest two.2 if you bought used directly from Whest (£1,150 / $1,500) . Is that a lot to spend? Yes, but it can make an OM10 / 2M red sing and will mean you get everything out of any cartridge upgrade until the levels noted above and even then will beat $2500 and above stages. I suggest you look at the testimonials on the Whest site against comparably priced and higher stages. You will find write-ups on all levels of stages, but having test from the one noted right through 30s 40SE’s to Titan and MC Ref Series all of the high end trickles into the entry level models.
There is also a Whest two.2 dual mono on US Audio Mart at the moment for $1195, that is the next one up and (always noting the risks of SH) is a great stage for that money.
@squared80I would like to strongly advise you to go to the nearest Federal office and say the codeword "cableista" - they will immediately admit you into the witness protection program.
Don't listen to people telling you to "upgrade" those cables. They don't believe in science and quantifiable facts. You're 12AWG is way more than enough as long as it's simple OFC. No cable will ever sound better.
Thank you all for the detailed and informative responses! It’s great to be able to learn not only from your specific nuggets of insight and particular product suggestions, but also to get to aggregate across so many suggestions to get a kind of consensus. (:
Summarizing across the posts above, I’m hearing:
1) Having the speakers on the credenza is a major limitation: try to fix or at least mitigate issues caused by that first.
2) Then, roughly in order of number of "votes", first speakers, then phono preamp, phono cartridge, and maybe interconnects/speaker cables are the recommendations for where to upgrade.
Then, there were some good questions raised:
Q: What cartridge is being used? (@mswale@audio_rd_uk@oceanica) --> the stock Pro-ject MM cartridge the T1 came with. I replaced the stock Ortofon 5E stylus with an OM10 (because our curious 6-year old bent it...)
Q: What is the budget? Something like $1-2k now, up to $5k or so over the next few years. Given that speaker position is so compromised, I think that places a natural ceiling on how much it makes sense to spend.
Next, let me update you on what I did. I first put a set of Herbie’s Fat Dots under the speakers, and tweaked speaker position some more (a little further from the back and side walls). This seemed to make a pretty obvious difference in the tightness of the sound, especially in the lower range.
Then, I noticed a pair of Jamo Concert 8s for sale locally at what I thought was a reasonable price ($350), so after checking that my Rotel amp’s 4 ohm power output exceeded the Jamo spec, I grabbed them and bi-wired them up. Initially I thought they sounded a little restrained -- not quite as open as say, when I had my beloved Vandersteen 1Cs mated to the same amp -- but with more listening I think they’ve grown on me.
On the hunt for a phono preamp next (the T1 has a bypass for the internal stage) -- the journey continues!
You post a request for help, and then disappear from your own thread for 3 days. You have questions that need answers, most specifically what is your budget? Recommendations cannot properly be given unless we know what you can afford
At the price point of your system, you’d be hard pressed to upgrade without just getting a new system. But things to consider first, you have speakers that are ported on the back. Moving them would be a huge plus , but it sounds like that’s not possible. I’ve placed KG 1.5’s on stands about 20” off the wall and sound improvement was considerable. So here’s some suggestions, Crites crossover rebuild kit is relatively inexpensive. Add a Schiit phono stage and/or pre. A Bluenode ( latest version) would be a plus. Hold off on speaker cables , but definitely try better interconnects, Someting in the $100-200 range would be noticeable. Good luck and happy hunting, Mike B.
Further to my earlier comment and to reinforce some of our colleagues like jrareform
here is a link to help prioritize and invest in the different components, if that can help. It also recommends to spend the bulk on speakers, then on the source, etc.
Speakers would be the biggest bang for your buck improvement IF you can afford 1500-3k on new speakers. I am personally a huge fan of Tekton Design Impact Monitors and Double Impact, but any of their designs with the seven tweeter array I'm sure is solid. Expect to wait weeks though and have trouble getting through to them at times. Although, they have some models available for sale right now on their specials section.
Otherwise KEF makes solid stuff if you don't like playing loud as I think their low end gets heavily distorted at higher volume typically at lower price points.
But yes, without knowing your budget, it's hard to give you advice. Speakers are by far going to give you the biggest change in your system though. But I'd say you'd have to spend $1500+ to get more than an incremental change. I'd go as far to say that with some $2000+ speakers such as the tektons, it would absolutely change your system into a different animal.
There are some well proven bookshelf style speakers that are affordable and you appreciate a much smoother sound after their broken in after 60 hours or so. Those speakers are the Wharfedale Lintons. They are usually on lower price around Xmas /black Friday specials.
Re Seeker, nearly all preamplifiers ever made operate in Class A, and many/ most modern tube Preamplifiers can drive a 10K ohm load easily (which is to say their output Z is 1K ohm or less). I agree those are parameters that need to be checked out before you buy a tube preamp to drive an SS amplifier. You want input Z to be 10X or more higher than output Z.
Based on your post focusing on your analog needs If you don’t already have the speakers isolated from your sideboard look at Isoacoustics mini pucks at a minimum. Also a standalone phono preamp from the likes of Schiit or others within your budget and an updated cartridge at least in the $200-300 range or more.
An upgraded Preamplifier more in line with your Poweramp would help your analog and digital quality.
I pretty much ignored this part. If you want good sound don't let the furniture determine it, proper stands and placement are literally the easiest and cheapest tweaks of the system and the best bang for the buck.
If you are forced and willing to compromise with the placement, you are probably not crazy about achieving the best sound. And nothing wrong with that....
A separate phono preamp, definitely. Schiit is a good recommendation for a budget price. If the speakers *must* stay on the credenza, then get some desktop stands for them, they'll sound much better. IsoAcoustics are popular. Otherwise separate stands will improve things a lot. Between those two fairly inexpensive changes I think you'll get more enjoyment out of the current system.
First of all as others have alluded, what is your budget either for total or how much potentially a year if you were looking to do it in steps.
If the latter is your route, as below its obviously going to be important for you to take steps that are immediately benefitting without the upgrade just being the limiting factor a few steps later. I note in saying that you will have seen here you can 'always' find something extra to change. But what you want is to not feel the need to go around the loop again within what you were happy to spend overall. If you find that hooks you into listening to more and more, then perhaps a second loop is worthwhile.
Having got my system to a point where several of my personal TT System components were used at the UK HiFi show and there was little at the show to touch it. I have spent much of my 'available tinkering time' in the last year assisting friends and family to get a 'good proportion' of what mine can do for a cost effective price. So I would give some suggestions for which parts to change based on that work that would fit in that budget, with "if you wanted to continue after, the next thing would be".
A question to start. Does the Project T have something like an Ortofon 2M Red or the "Project Pickit" cartridge / stylus? As that can have some influence on some early options. If not which stylus is it.
How much do you want to spend? What kind of sound are you looking for?
You can upgrade your KG2 to KG3.2's on the cheep also there are a ton of upgrades for these speakers that make a huge difference.
While the T1 is a ok TT, there are also upgrades for that, really you don't want anything with a built in phono, there are a lot of low cost good phone pre's out there. You can also "upgrade" to a Carbon Debut Evo, but not sure how much of a real upgrade it is. Best bang for the buck there would be to upgrade the cartridge. What do you have now? My first TT was the Debut Evo, once I upgraded the needle it made a huge difference. I have the Suimko Rainier cartridge, a simple needle swap to the Olympia needle, was so worth the cost. After a while decided I needed a quieter and more robust TT, so upgraded to X2, so happy with that.
Blue Jeans cables are great, don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. And upgrade would be to get their speaker cables as well.
Not sure where you live, but Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace are great places to pick up good used gear. I see good TT's, phono stages, a ton of Klipsch speakers.
I build high end from scratch and know a thing or two. as mentioned get a nice preamp. Class A is probably the best sounding. The problem with passive and tube preamps is they have trouble driving a 10k /20k load on todays amplifiers. in the old days the amps were 50k to 100k input tube amps. now i have seen 9k inputs. and your passive is in trouble as it cant pass current. with the correct preamp the bass and lower mids should tighten up and sound clearer. so i would recommend getting a Schiit Saga 2 Class A, Zero-Feedback, Differential Preamplifier for $279 it even has balanced outputs if needed.
There are two school of thoughts. Start with the source (the sound can never be better than the source gives you) or start with the speakers to get the overall sound you want for a given room (each speaker has its own sound signature). For my first system way back when I started with the source. For my current system I rebuilt it starting with the speakers. Given you current system I would start with investing in speakers to match your room setup and the get the sound you like. I suggest you go to various retailers and listen to a few and narrow it down based on eh sound you like. Curious as to the cart you you use on your TT? Good luck in your upgrade journey!
I agree that it is way too early in the process to worry too much about cables. Blue Jeans are a great place to start. I also agree that the onboard phono preamp and the passive preamp are a limitation. To keep it simple, and cost effective, I recommend a Schiit Saga 2 and a Schiit Mani. You could also shop for used versions of these, though they are both on version 2 now and it might be worth getting the latest.
Cables will not solve poor speaker placement or room issues. The least bang for the buck in my 40 years of this hobby. My advice, get your system properly set up especially speaker placement. Too often overlooked when applying system band aids like cables. The room is part of your system, like it or not. Then IMHO, speakers. In spite of other opinions, they are the reproducers of the sound. Yes, all links in the chain can have an influence. However, that’s your big ticket for improvement.
@OP Running the basic phono stage in the Project TT into a passive preamp is going to be a fairly major limitation, so that's certainly an area for attention.
OP, it comes down to what in YHO what would give you the best bang/buck. If you don't fear used and are down with paying attention to some of the 'deals gone bad' that regularly post 'round the 'gon...
I've dropped +/- 2.5K$ over awhile and its' an all-day affair to simply break it down.
Fortunately, not too many things with a weight issue.....
Depends on your goals. You seem to be going analog/vinyl, which I fully endorse. I’d look hard at your phono rig. Built in phono pre is not the way to improve. Move up from the Pro-Ject table and get a good free standing tube phono pre. You have a nice system now, so improvements won’t come free/cheap. When you have 10K to move up, go ahead and switch turntable and phono pre. Then when you have another 2K, improve the cartridge. That’ll get your source in decent shape. Just my opinion! Then you’ll be ready to drop the Rotel and Klipsch stuff when the budget replenishes. Cables you can do later. 😉
It might be good to help Matthias to prioritize a bit. For instance, I thing cables and connects will be least likely to make a big difference in that system. What cartridge is being used. I would agree speaker position or a type that works well in the location chosen would be first on my list. Followed by possible cartridge, then look at preamp, other electronics, etc. And, all of this depends on how much you want to spend and how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.
@grislybutterMy short time here I ignore every thing well most every post by @audiotroy . Find it annoying they way they cruse these pages trying to make a sale. Like vultures.
atc scm 40s are remarkable and at 7k a pair not expensive
are you high? 7K is not expensive? Have you read what he has? His entire system doesn’t add up to 2K, how is it a sensible suggestion to make for seven grand? Are you listing whatever you have in stock randomly or actually caring about OP’s question?
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