To better clarify what I did with bypass caps in the power supply of my preamp here is more info....
I essentially used cascading bypass capacitor bundles. I cascaded three capacitors with smaller and smaller uf values. I also made sure the smaller value caps had higher voltage ratings. For example...
20 uf. 400v
2 uf 600v
.22 uf 1000v
I paralleled these bundles on top of each large can electrolytic.
Great results. |
Salectric,
Thanks for the response. Have you tried a Wima small value cap under .33 uf value? My mids cap is a 3.0 uf and I am going to try a small Wima.
Perhaps a value of 1uf is too high as a high pass, bypass cap?
Thoughts? |
In a power conditioner, w/Mun S/G/O 3.3uf, .22 CuTf VCap is about perfect.
Expect long break in. Those JFX r impressive, but never 'loosened up', they remain rather clinical, cold in comparison. The VCaps will go up & down for a long time, but they resolve more detail & flesh out the lower mids in a way nothing else does, including Dueland. S/G/O & CuTf is the best I've heard, remaining musical w/gobs of resolution. The 'center of gravity' lower, has a certain 'grip' on the music. As always, everything in combination.... |
Regismc, very interesting! Have you tried the s/g/o plus CuTF combination as a coupler as opposed to power conditioner? |
Grannyring, I haven't experimented with Wimas. Back in the days when I had ARC preamps I listened to Wimas because they were used extensively in the ARC power supplies, but I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that----too many other variables.
On your comment about 2 camps of people----one appreciating bypass caps and the other disliking bypass caps---I agree completely. Some like 'em, some don't. I am in the Don't Like Them camp. Each time I try a bypass, I hear an emphasis in the highs, like a spotlight has been turned on. This accentuates treble speed, focus and apparent detail and there is more "air" in the mids and highs. These qualities seem---at first---like genuine improvements. Unfortunately, to my ears, they quickly become artificial and unmusical. The unbypassed cap also sounds more coherent; it doesn't change character across the tonal spectrum. The unbypassed cap sounds like one voice rather than a smeared chorus of different voices. |
Jupiter copper foil caps coming in 3 weeks. Yes, values from .001 to 1uf at 600V will be ready in 3 weeks. So far, everyone has preferred them to Dueland copper cast and VSF. These will be in a round case. Later this year 100V flat stacked versions for speakers will be ready. |
I bypassed the output caps in my Lampizator today with Wima caps. Just like you said Salectric there seemed to be better highs and more air, but after 3 hours....no go. Things were to bright and emphasized in the highs.
My preamp bypass caps in the power supply did not do that however and worked perfectly with no negatives. So, in the right position, value, and gear they can indeed work. As I have said, it depends on the gear and not so much personal preference or ears. Nobody would say my preamp was better sounding before the bypass mod. Most would not like the bypass cap sound on my Lampizator on the output cap. Certainly nobody in my home did.
I am going to wait on those Jupiter caps for my Lampi! Instead of Duelund I am going to try these new ones. I will do so as I hear they will cost less. |
Salectric, I also agree with you that personal preference can in some instances certainly play a role.
Emailed Ric at EVS and I used the wrong value Wima as a bypass in my Lampizator and will try the mod again once I get the right value. I will report back! |
For yrs. I rolled preamp coupling caps. Multicaps, Sonicap Platinums, Clarity MRs, Mundorf S//G/O, CuTf V-Cap. JFX Premium, Dueland Cast,
mostly .22s, never in bypass mode. I also rolled most of those, including Dueland Alexander's thru a pr. of Mig 6c33c monos. I've two systems, one up, one down, each w/3 10g runs to an isolated subpanel. The 3 down r on Isoclean gold outlets, the 3 up, Watt gate silvers.
One day while wondering what to do w/all the used caps I took a closer look inside a power conditioner. Some tiny little .01s from neutral to ground
were replaced by .22s & so the experiment began that lasted well over a yr.
The outlets in the conditioner, mine had 5 duplexes out, w/ two individual legs in, also effect the sound. I replaced several of the orange hospital grade outlets w/Oyaide R-0s. You'd have to hear the two side by side in a neutrally cabled system, but the R-0s definitely bring 'more' to the table, after a bit of break in.
For the longest time I couldn't figure out how to utilize the CuTf Vs. They
definitely brought something special no other cap did, but alone or matched w/other .22s in the conditioner they were 'relentless', not forgiving & ultimately unmusical. So I kept taking them out. In retrospect they seemed
'tight', almost 'driven', but to much so.
They really do take what seems like forever to break in, to loosen up When I first tried matching them up w/the 3.3uf S/G/O I was pretty shocked at how they seemed to bring out the best of each. That proportion seems about right. The 'disconnect' when matching two different cap types, was mostly absent. I say mostly, because I think the V-Caps still needed additional break in. Evan so, the combo was special. Music had robust drive plus the dimensionality & focus, something akin to what a Amprex Bugle Boy brings to the table in a nice preamp. Depth & width, perhaps not the height.
That's pretty high praise. Those who've heard such & know their Mullards from their Amprex's, know the life & 'sparkle', the extended treble that leaves ones ears 'hungary', that bit of 'special dimensionality' that is difficult to find. Mullard in comparison r your favorite comfy slippers. Easy to wear, friendly, but perhaps a bit mishapen.
I run that conditioner mostly feeding a Yamaha A-S2000. CDS-2000. & Kef LS-50s. A very transparent, neutral, & spacious combination. When I do swap in another amp/pre/spkr or frontend, the basic character remains.
One other note or subject I'd like to address. After playing w/this combo I'd take issue w/those who claim, say the Kef LS-50 is only a 'near field' speaker. Clean power & conditioning make any speaker much more effective in filling a room. These little guys go plenty low @ good volume levels. They have coherency & dynamics & show any & all upstream changes, especially cables, ect... If it is warm it is warm, if it is rounded it is rounded. You will hear exactly what your 59' Valvo rectifier, your 6sn7 metal base, or your favorite silver speaker wire brings to the table, & you may be surprised! Can you handle the truth? I ended up stripping out many of the 'tweaks' accumulated over the years, including larger speakers.
In my room, effective passive conditioning went a long ways to bringing truth & beauty, (CuTf V-Cap & Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil) 2gether. |
You cannot tell how a cap sounds after 3 hours. Modded Wima caps need a couple of days before they settle down. The value of the bypass cap will also effect the frequency balance. Generally the smaller values add air and as you make the cap larger it will add some warmth. You must damp the bypass cap and the main cap. You cannot dangle a cap in the air on bare solid core leads (it will act like a pitchfork .....this will sound bright and horrible). You must clamp the bypass cap down (and not with double stick scotch tape...this ruins the sound) and also you must damp any solid core lead on the bypass cap with cotton sleeving (unless the leads are very short).
Perfecting takes patience. |
Thanks Ric. I did all the damping with the Wimas. That is something I have always done. No, I did not let them play for days as I could not stand the etched sound. I always wait for burn in, but after emailing you and knowing I had the wrong value, I just pulled the plug!
Looking forward to round two. Also looking forward to hearing the new Jupiter caps. Duelund needs more competition so their prices come down. Competition is good for us all on these mega dollar caps! |
Grannyring
I found what you said about bypassing in the power supply very interesting. I was shocked when I changed out the vintage electrolytic for a new Jensen. It was more than any other change. (the vintage being that much better)
You say bypassing your electrolytic was huge improvement but not in coupling caps. Is this because the electrolytic is so poor (and maybe slow) to begin with?
Would not one high quality power supply cap be even better?
Would you like to try a paper in oil power supply cap? (just kidding)
It has been in my mind ever since hearing vintage electrolytic vs. Jensen. Jensen sounded dry the heavier vintage sounded more liquid.
I have heard even years ago McIntosh did some bypassing? (accepting the improvement) I understand that even a Leak Pre amp had a paper in oil power supply 60 years ago?
Has anyone tried the new rectifier tubes from Mullard or Gold Lion? |
I now have Mundorf Supreme 3.3uf caps and Ric Schultz's modified Wima .33uf caps as a bypass combos on the computer grade caps in my preamp's power supply and the result is fantastic!
One can hear the difference in caps used in bypass positions quite clearly. The above combo is very good in my preamp. I tried some older Audience caps for bypassing and did not like them at all. |
Just an update on the importance of caps used in parallel positions in a crossover. Another way to say this are capacitors used as part of a Zobel network. Some suggest they are not as important and go so far as to say they not important at all since they are not part of the signal path. Wrong! Double wrong!
I have used three different brands of capacitors on the mid drivers in my Coincident Total Victory III speakers. Each one had an immediate impact on the sound quality. Not one of them sounded the same. The last and final one I used are Mundorf SIO caps bypassed with a modified Wima .15uf value. These are the best by a wide margin. Just outstanding!
They replaced Jupiter HT flat stacked with no bypass cap on it. The Mundorf/Wima combo is better in every way imaginable. So detailed and smooth. Nice air and natural tone. These are staying for sure.
Those of you with Zobel networks in your speakers go ahead and upgrade the resistors and caps and be rewarded with substantial sound quality improvement.
The combo of Mundorf SIO bypassed with modified Wima caps from Ric Schultz is very good indeed. Very good. |
Grannyring
I MARVEL (notice capitol letters! lol) at your desire to keep going back to the furnace to see if there's anything else you can try.
In an earlier post you mention how hard it was to work inside your speakers, mine are simpler than yours (Total Eclipses) and I still felt like a was a brain surgeon at times! I congratulate you on your persistence in order to gain knowledge and a musical edge.
No updates my end re my crossover components. Still waiting for Duelund to do their thing before I get the total delivery. I anticipate I'll be dancing and singing like the rest of you about what an improvement they've made in around a month - wishful thinking!!!
Must be something someone else can write. This thread has gone quiet but it remains one of the most fascinating audio blogs I've read in years.
Cheers everyone, Tas |
Tas,
You are correct the Total Eclipse has a simpler X over than the Total Victoty III of Grannyring. You just remove the lower woofer and will find the tweeter cap(solen) mounted on the floor of the speaker near the coil inductor. I have the Total Eclipse II version and assume your xover is very similar.
Charles, |
Tas, please let us know when your mod is complete. Also, feel free to email me with any questions if you run into some confusion along the way.
Be sure to use a good solder. WBT with 4% silver is one good choice. Be sure to tin or coat any exposed copper wire to prevent oxidation and soumd degregation over time.
I have one more mod in mind for my speakers. I will update you on the results shortly. |
Hi Charles and Bill
Charles - you may have forgotten but we had already spoken about the location of my crossovers - my speakers being bi-wired meant that the crossover components were in 2 locations. The first where you mentioned and the other in the mid/tweeter enclosure. Much harder to work on than your speakers.
Bill - fantastic to hear from you. I've already secured some WBT 5% solder and all is ready for the transplant. I'll definitely be keeping in touch.
Very excited over here. |
Tasouli,
You're right I'd forgotten that. |
Is there any updates on the Jupiter copper foil caps to try.
Having tried the duelund cast, they are as good as it gets, neutral and doesnt highlight the.sound in any.way and just does things very well.
The CUTFs certainly do seem to let a tad of warm through the midrange, each having their strengths, the TFTFs still give that drive to the music like no other caps, no even the CUTFs or Casts.
Overall, if a balance can be matched with the CUTFs and TFTf, it can make a mighty fine sound with a touch of Duelunds to just bind the whole picture everything together.
I did have some success mating the mundorf sio bypassed with the TFTF which was very nice too and need more testing. I was thinking a CUTF bypassed with the TFTF might hit the spot. |
Jupiter says one month away from intro. I spoke with them yesterday. |
Still working on the crossovers and bi-amplification. Posted some photos and comments in my system's tread. |
Just an FYI to all. I have ended up with Jupiter Flat Stacked caps in my speaker on the mids and tweeter. After extensive break in they surpassed the Mundorf SIO to my ears. They are more full bodied sounding than the Mundorf and that ultimately won me over. The Jupiters can sound a tad dull at first, but after break in they open up nicely.
Still waiting on the new Jupiter caps for my dac! |
Flat bottom caps such as the Duelund and Jupiter can be enhanced even further when mounted and secured on Audio Points .2's and APCD2's. I acquired a few years ago Clarity Cap DTAC caps that have a center taped bobbin and bolted these in my outboard crossovers. Between the caps and the tone wood I placed the coupling discs and 1.0 points and drew the capacitor down and secured thru the bottom bobbin hole. When you adjust the tension of the caps to the coupling points you can affect their apparent speed. I had these caps cryo'd several times and cut flying leads of 12 gauge copper foil. I performed the same surface mounting to the inductors as well. I clamped these from the top side with hard wood and secured with brass hardware. All devices are hard mounted and direct coupled no soft materials to impede energy transfer. Tom.. Star Sound Technologies. |
Hi all
I've received my Parts Connection shipment of Neotech wire for my internal re-wiring of my Coincident Total Eclipses but the first - and hopefully only - issue I have is the fact that the 6N teflon copper UPOCC (20AWG, 16AWG and 12AWG) I've bought is unidirectional. Fair enough but it isn't labelled in any way that I can see. Just bare red teflon.
In my situation, how would you work out which way to run the wire? Please don't say "by listening to it"? That'll just send me to an asylum! lol I cannot, in my wildest dreams, imagine re-wiring these speakers more than once just to compare results.
I've thought about writing to Parts connection but.....why on earth wouldn't they label this stuff if it was unidirectional?!
Love to hear people's thoughts on this!
Cheers, Tas |
Hi Tas
No the wire is not directional. Hook it up and go! |
I used Neotech to rewire some Spendors on the bass driver, and that was never mentioned to me. I don't unerstand how this bulk high purity wire could be directional. If it was me, I wouldn't sweat it. |
Granny, Roxy, you make the difficult, easy.
Thanks guys |
The Copper foil wax paper Jupiter caps are now available. They will be at the dealers within days. Values from .001 to 1uf at 600V. Round case, pure silver leads. These MAYBE the new reference. Not cheap but a lot less than Dueland. A .22uf is $60. The 100V speaker caps (1uf and up) will be available later this year. I will have some preliminary listening feedback next week for you guys. |
Thanks Rick I am on it! Have some coming in for my dac first. |
Ooh - very good.
My next effort could be to start swapping caps in my DAC and pre-amp. These could be the answer for me |
The Duelund RS have just been stated as a pre-order at PCX. Price is competitive though still cost more than the jupiters.
Is there any way that is would be a worst bet as still untested. |
Jupiters have been beta tested by folks who know Duelund and they say the Jupiter's are as good or even a tad better :-) |
I bought an Audio Note DAC 2.1 from Audio Note Kits about 5 months ago. I had it assembled (immaculately) by Digital Pete, who is officially sanctioned by Audio Note Kits to assemble their kits. I asked him if he could use the lower end Duelunds as the coupling caps, and he did so for an additional $400.00. I have to say to anyone who may have just added a Duelund cap to any component...be patient! It sounded good right away, and better in 2 weeks, but it is only after a little less than 5 months that I am finally hearing what they do when they are broken in. They are so natural sounding, and so worth the money.
|
Has anyone here compared a familiar fully broken in cap to one that was the same and identical and then cryo'd a couple of times? The performance gain in cryo'd parts is pretty amazing. Caps, resistors, diodes, transformers, outputs and even chassis parts take a jump up in sound quality. Avoid this treatment on mains caps. All this started with some Hitachi metallized and Orange Drop film and foils in bypass across the mains caps. I now have parts run at least twice some several times more. The benefit is permanent unless you melt it down. Drivers maybe next. Tom |
I see Duelund is doing autotransformers from the Jeff's Place website. For us that have them in the crossover this is big news! My speakers use similiar design to Westminster Royal's. I have been running out of parts to replace! With the exception of replacing some VSF with CAST or Silver which is just not happening here.
My current autoformer is a wax paper design which my guess can only be bettered by better resonance control of the CAST. There was much I liked about the VSF tweeter inductor but ultimately was too noisy. My only lonely Duelund part that sits in the closet. One thing I hope this thread does is avoids missteps for others, I wish I bought a CAST tweeter inductor wonder what was I thinking?... |
Volleyguy1,
You were probably thinking that you wanted to have money left over for groceries! They are expensive for mere mortals. I would have loved them in my DAC too. |
Too funny Roxy!
That is how the whole thing got started I really thought I was throwing money away on my first VSF cap that someone recommended on this thread... After that one part led to another and another and another but at least I have lost weight! |
Anyone got their hands on the new Jupiter copper HT. Sonicraft lists them and some audiocircle members report where that they were obtained directly from jupiter condensers but still not listed on their website. |
Ya, got mine from both Jupiter and Sonicraft. SC has a 20% off sale right now. They have them in stock and just not on the site as yet. |
Any previews on how they sound even not broken in as yet? Im deceiding if they are worth a shot ordering over cutft/ftf or duelunds which i am used to and do like a whole lot. |
They make the Duelund's sound broken!
Could not resist saying that. No idea how they sound as I have not put them in my gear as yet. I will soon.....this weekend most likely and let you know. |
Bill,
That was funny and people crack me up when they resort to that phrase. These latest Jupiter capacitors could be fabulous and some may prefer them to the Duelund CAST. But "broken" is too much hyperbole for me. How about saying another superb cap and legitimate alternative.
Charles, |
I know a couple of builders who LOVE the new Jupiter caps and have nothing but praise for them. I am been too busy of late to install mine and hope to do it this weekend in my Dude. |
I have one of my monoblock amps with the Jupiter copper caps in place. The amp uses two size coupling caps .47uf and a .10 uf in parallel. The other amp has Audio Note Copper caps. I will compare both over the next couple of weeks. If the Jupiters win, then I will buy caps for the other amp. First time I have tried it this way...one amp first, then the other.
Thus far the Jupiters sound more refined and more natural. Voices are smoother with the Jupiters.
My amps are Thor TPA 30's. |
I do realize comparisons will be limited with one amp, but it is a decent way to start. |
I have re started the Duelund vs. vintage tweeter in series inductor test.
Vintage is a wire wound inductor wrapped actually quite tight in wax Duelund is a VSF and in past tests vintage won leaving this as my lonely Duelund part.
The biggest difference is 12 gauge foil vs. very thin gauge wire.
In the past the test was more on digital as that was before the CAST caps went in phono stage. One more try...
Now thinking logically I never should have got the VSF as it was not much of a change like CAST could have been (in noise reduction) but I did not know as this was in series inductor... |
Volleyguy, did you mean to say the tweeter inductor is in series with the tweeter? That would be odd since the choke will roll off the highs. The tweeter choke should be in a shunt position, i.e. after a series capacitor and in parallel with the tweeter. The two reactive components---a series cap and shunt choke---will give a 2d order crossover. For a 3rd order, there would be three reactive components---the series cap, the shunt choke, and a second cap located after the choke and again in series with the tweeter. |
I'm shaking violently please like the Duelunds better. |
Salectric
Sorry that is the parallel tweeter inductor and is a resonance trap? Not exactly sure what that means?
Jwm
I hope you do not lose it in a fit of shaking, but no...
You just can not change the DCR in a circuit without radically changing the sound. The Duelund is 12 gauge the vintage is very thin but is very tightly wrapped in wax paper. So you can not automatically put in a Duelund part and keep Jwm from shaking!
The sound is much hotter sharper. For anyone who does not know what they are doing (maybe me) do not change the resistance in the circuit of one driver or you will change the sound and maybe/likely not for the better.
I am uncertain how much is resistance (thin wire) and how much is wax? I suspect wax slows the sound down and the highs even more... Makes it dull?
I like most do not like to waste money on parts. All of the Duelund parts I have got have been great except this one and maybe the round solid copper wire. (this one is not a fault maybe of the part but the application)
I am unsure as to what the goal is on parallel tweeter parts? (I am sure not to add noise?)
This post is just trying to get anyone who reads this to save some money maybe or be careful on changing parts that change the DCR. |
