Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil


I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy

Showing 50 responses by grannyring

Jwm - Big Amen to that. Both the power supply statement and get out your solder guns!
Tas, put the Jupiter copper in your dac based on your comments thus far. The total balance of your system will please you greatly with these in your dac.
We are also sharing a passion and love for building and learning. We want to tinker and play and get joy out of it. The destination is not the whole ball of wax as I enjoy the process as much or more.
Dgarretson,

Thanks for the heads up on that TC Clarity cap. I need these values,

270 uf. And 470 uf. The TC only has 220 and 430 uf. That seems to far off?
My amp used 270 and 470 uf caps but I am replacing with 1500 and 3300 uf caps from Mallory. Again, replacing with more capacitance for better sound.
Yes my power supply has a bridged rectifier as an FYI. It is a 50 watt push/pull amp using el34 or kt88 or 66's
Charles, it is needed to avoid the copper oxidizing. You must cut the leads and solder with a properly coated wire or treat the bare copper leads to prevent oxidation and the deterioration of the signal over time. One or the other is needed.
Charles agreed. I am interested in why the claims don't seem to match materials however?
I am looking to upgrade the bass capacitor in my speakers. Right now there is a 68 uf Clarity SA cap. Does anybody know of a good bass cap? I don't want to spend more than $50 to $100 each? These larger values seem hard to find unless they are the cheaper ones like the Clarity SA's. Love to hear your suggestions.
All I know is they sound fantastic. Did others buy them and where did you use them?
Undertow,

These are made for electronics? 900V rating and said by Duelund to be perfect as coupling caps? Anyway...

Have some bass back, but the highs are still a little thin and bright.

The Ampohm PIO's sound great, in fact much better then the Tefton caps I have tried as an fyi. That is why I thought I would go for the best PIO - Alexander.
Wonder is anyone has compared the new Duelund Alexander caps to the new Vcap Cuft caps?
Ok, I hope you folks can tell me if what I am going through is normal with these new Duelund Alexander caps. I purchased a new set of 3.3 uf Alexanders for use as coupling caps in my tube preamp. After about 24 hours they sounded darn good to me. They got better up until 120 hours or so, but now the sound has gone south - BIGTIME!

The bass has left my music and the highs are a little hard and bright after the 120 hour mark. So much so that both my wife and I turned off the stereo as we were so disappointed with the sound.

I guess I did not expect the sound to go south after 120 hours, but rather continue to improve. Has anyone else experienced the same thing with this cap? I hope it gets better as they cost me $400 and right now the Ampohm PIO tin foils are better sounding.

Is there hope.....
My Duelund Alex caps sound poor after 120 hours and sounded glorious after 30 hours.

My bass. Is now all but gone? I am really fustrated and will let them burn in another 100 or more hours.
Fact is I am so upset - "Having such a high level of fustration that I completely forgot to pronounce/spell the first "R" in the word "frustration" :-)
Undertow,

Understand your point. I guess I am wondering why the bass that was so great after 24 hours has left the room after 124 hours? If the bass does not come back I will agree with you that even this Alexander PIO has weak bass.
Ok, the Alexanders have about another 80 hours on them for a total of about 200 hours. The high are getting much better and the bass is much better. Very strange burn in road these are traveling, but they are starting to sound very good indeed.

I will update the group as they settle in.

Frederick of Duelund felt they just needed more time to settle in and we will see....
The Duelund Alex caps are sounding much better. I found the issue and this is one to learn from. My SS amp has a very low input impedance while my tube preamp has a relatively high output impedance. Well, I tied another SS amp with 100k input impedance and oh my the preamp and system now sing like never before with these Duelund caps. I thought something was going on that caused bass roll-off and harsh highs and it was this impedance mismatch for sure.

Very interesting lesson. The Alexander caps are very special indeed.
I should also share that my system has never sounded this good. The Alexander caps are wonderful. They are extended, open, airy and so transparent. Bass is tight and so fast and powerful. I am thrilled with these and glad I decided to go for them!

Output coupling caps can really make a difference and these Duelund Alexander caps are the real deal folks.

Impedance matching is critical when pairing an amp and preamp. I have read this a hundred times and now have first hand knowledge of it. You need your amp's input impedance to be at least 10x greater then the preamp's output impedance. I had a 2-3x factor before changing my amp. The new amp gave me a 10-12x factor and that put everything in place perfectly.

I learned a great deal over the past month and hope others can learn from my findings.
Strange, my previous hardwood floor rooms have never sounded as good as my current carpet over concrete basement room. Lots of "other" noises from vibrations of the wood floors into the walls etc... make for a mess of sound at higher volume levels. My experience is polar opposite on this matter it seems.

I suppose wood over concrete would be wonderful, but that is not a wise idea in basement rooms! Wood floors are usually on first or second level rooms and they are just plain noisy in my experience. Many factors here that are home dependent. I canÂ’t see saying wood is always the best.

Duelund Alexander caps for $380 total have been the single biggest improvement I have ever made in my sound system. Far greater impact then the various room tweaks I do employ. Greater then cable changes and amp upgrades.

Just my experience.
Alex caps are not handmade and these CAST are as the label clearly states. CAST continues to use better quality materials.
Johnsonwu, what do you think of these Clarity TC caps in my power supply replacing the 470 uf electrolytic small caps that you sad were good. Those stock caps cost like $3 each? Surely they are nothing special?

I know you know quite a bit about electronics so I am curious what you think.
Ait, I hope you are wrong as I purchased these only because they were on sale assuming they were the same. If not, then it is false advertising.

I will ask Chris at Parts Connection Monday. He told me they got a great price because he had ordered hundreds. So the only difference should be the fact that this vendor ordered in very large quantity.

The Alex caps are also available in larger sizes while these
CAST ones stop at 2.2 uf also leading me to think they are as they were.
Hi all. I just placed some Duelund Cast (copper) caps in my tube preamp replacing the Dueland Alexander's I had initially installed and enjoyed over the past year or so.

The Alexander caps are amazing and an easy best buy in terms of value besting Mundorf's best and others. However, these Cast caps are even better. Parts Connection is running a 66 percent off sale on the .22 and .47 uf values only. This is a very good price. $199 each!
Ait, I hope you are wrong as I purchased these only because they were on sale assuming they were the same. If not, then it is false advertising.

I will ask Chris at Parts Connection Monday. He told me they got a great price because he had ordered hundreds. So the only difference should be the fact that this vendor ordered in very large quantity.

The Alex caps are also available in larger sizes while these
CAST ones stop at 2.2 uf also leading me to think they are as they were.
I emailed Chris at PC today and he will confirm that the 630 VDC CAST now being made/sold by Duelund is in fact the same. He sure thinks so and is getting confirmation from Duelund.

PC simply made a VERY large purchase instead of Duelund running a couple at a time etc...

They have sold out of the first batch and are placing a second big order based on the success of the first. Here is what Chris emailed to me.

"We've already sold out of the 0.47uf, and are in back-order on it.....and
should have the 0.22uf's sold out later this week.

Due to the success of this first launch, we are re-ording those values,
and expanding the range to 5 or 6 more values too."

This is very good news indeed!
I just finished placing four Duelund CAST .22 uf caps in my hybrid Aesthetix Atlas amp. I replaced some fair REL caps. All I can say is why? I mean why don't these builders use Duelund on their top end gear? This was a huge improvement - not subtle at all.

With the CAST in my pre and now amp my music sounds like it is coming from upgraded speakers. Easily the best upgrade I have experienced including all other modifications, gear upgrades, wire upgrade etc...

These caps are very special indeed. The .47 uf caps in my pre have about 60 hours on them and my amp only 2 hours. I know things will get even better over the next 100 or so hours.

I wish I could afford these in my speakers!
I have yet to hear from from PC or Duelund on this thread. It would be nice to confirm Ait's question.
I replaced the REL caps in my Aesthetix Atlas amp with CAST and the improvement was abvious immediately.
Chris old me they were genuine CAST and I assue Frederick no longer ollows this thread?
Question for those of you who may have some experience with power supply caps in a tube amp. I am totally going through a TAD 60 amp and upgrading many key caps and resistors as well as bypassing the volume and a few other things. Great sounding amp, but boy the parts quality is very poor and I expect to hear some large gains with my modification.

Fun fall/winter project.

The amp uses some large value caps in the power supply. 470 uf / 450 volt caps. Film caps are not possible, but what would you folks suggest to replace the cheap Nichicon caps? I am think about some large can computer grade caps from the likes of Sprague and others? Your thoughts please. Room is not an issue as I will be expanding the base of the amp with a nice wood frame.
I was thinking Sprague or Mallory computer grade not Atom.

I will check out those Clarity caps! Thanks....
Thanks Johnsonwu,

I am working on a TAD 60 tube amp. Paul's Dude uses an enormous about of capacitance and in his circuit sounds stunning. The coupling caps are usually Mundorf Supremes. I placed the Duelund CAST caps where the Mundorf's were and used a .47 uf value. Man did these caps sing in my Dude!

I wish I knew more about the TAD amp or could send you a scematic, but I don't have one. The TAD seems to be weak in the power supply.
Yes, I will be using some very large can Mallory caps for the upgraded power supply in my TAD 60 amp. I plan to use four 1500uf 450vdc caps in series. I will add a choke and regulator also.

I will also replace the coupling caps with Mundorf silver in oils. Key resistors will be replaced with Mills and Roderstein. Other caps will be replaced with Obbligato Gold.

This amp was made in China with decent iron and my upgrades should make this good sounding amp really sing. Decided to go this route rather than building an amp kit. I think in the end I will get better sound for time and dollars invested.

I am learning a great deal also and perhaps after this I can take on a bigger project.

I have not tried the Mundorf silver in oils and hope they sound as good as folks suggest.
Hi Charles, no just a cost issue as I am replacing many resistors and the total cost starts to add up. I hope to really learn a great deal with this project and in the end have a $1500 amp that sounds like $10,000. Ha!

My next amp project will be to build a killer tube amp with Duelund parts, but I have much to learn. For this project, building a new power supply and changing out virtually every cap and resistor with sold quality Mills and Mundorf parts is enough. The amp's circuit and iron are OK, but not worthy of Duelund.

I am quite intrigued with what the end result will be. One can purchase a China made amp like my TAD 60 for under $400 new in China. Add another $650 in parts and I think I could have a very nice 50 watt stereo amp. The Bez amp company in China sells amps very, very low in price. One can buy 50 OtL monoblock amps for $1300. The build quality is good, but the parts are cheap. Great amps to learn on and modify.

My TAD 60 was made by the Bez Co., but it has many upgrades over their stock $400 amp. I will have to build a nice chassis extension out of wood to fit the much bigger film and big can caps. Fun stuff!
I have a "comparison box" that allows me to place resistors or capacitors in it a listen to their sound in my system. The box is placed between my pre and amp or between my cd and pre using IC's.

This way I can listen to the part with the total signal going through it in my system. I plan to do a careful listen to resistors as this is the next area I want to learn about. Do Duelund resistors sound the best? What about Vishay Nudes etc.....I will compare.

Stay tuned.
Johnson, I am working with Paul on this and will clarify the actual arrangement of the 4 - 1500 uf caps and choke.
Volleyguy1, I use those large computer grade can caps made by Mallory. I find they work very well in power supplies, Have you tried them?
Can one even find a PIO with enough capacitance for a proper power supply? I use values from 1500uf to 3300uf. I have learned from an excellent tube amp builder that a power supply should be made with large can computer grade caps and loads of capacitance for best sound.

I am nearing the end of a tube amp build right now and am building the power supply so this topic is very interesting to me.
Space is certainly an issue. I am having an expansion chassis being made of wood that expands the depth of my chassis by 8 inches. This is how I can fit all these big can Mallory caps.
I placed the CAST caps in my newly acquired Music Reference RM9 tube amp. I placed 4 of the .22uf caps. They replaced the stocked Wondercaps.

The caps had some break in before I installed them and the improvement was significant. More open, transparent with voice and instruments sounding more like they should and live.

The only difficult thing was the fact they would not fit in the amp. I had to place them in an external wooden box. Not ideal, but the mod sounds wonderful.
Ya, my speaker has 8 caps per speaker on the highs and mids. Can we get a family discount? Ha! I had to use Mundorf silver, gold and oil (SGO's) They sound good, but not a CAST.
Great website Rick and I will contact you thru your site as I am going to try some of your ideas and products.
Thus far I have put Duelund CAST caps in my preamp, and three tube amps. Each time the improvement was absolutely revelatory. The music always maintained great tone, texture and body. I must have meat on the bones and the CAST do this in spades while being so transparent. That is a hard thing to do based on my experience.

All of this after break in of at least 100 hours, perhaps more depending on the gear it is placed in. I never used them in a source or DAC. Perhaps in that position it will take longer based on lower voltages? Just a guess.

Give it some more time.....