Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
The only thing was the Jensen was much lighter and maybe drier?
The failed Duelund VSF was 10+ years old and had a lot of hours on it in a tight space. The Jensen Paper Copper made me much more upset as they did not have tons of hours and were in the much roomier 500c. The X101st is very tight quarters and the reason for VSF in this location. What is reasonable? Tough question. It is not the cap price it is the damage done and the hours for repair.
Sound evaluation of both amps coming soon. |
I was promising an update on the Duelund Tinned Copper. Just before Christmas my wife's mother passed away and then my father just after so my brain was distracted. Then a pop developed in the 500c when turning on. So I put the EL84 back in and then heavy distortion in left channel. Yes frustration was a little high! On the way back to my dad's celebration of life we brought both amps in to Parts Connexion to find out what was wrong? The EL84 had a failed Duelund VSF coupling cap. This took out two left channel tubes. The 500c was suffering from low voltage and whole new power supply was installed. CE Manufacturing and Mundorf are the power supply caps. The old worn out power supply caps were acting like a resistor. I would have replaced years ago but there really was nothing. CE has bought vintage Mallory components and is making caps again. So my Fisher 500c is not stuffed cans but really a replacement of original power supply.
I know some would say again all new power supply caps better. One of the tests years ago was to see if a Jensen power supply cap was better than vintage. After a month or so the Jensen come out and vintage back in. Jensen sounded dry. I have no idea why but was glad when vintage went back in.
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That is great to hear SNS! Was it the wax paper inductors? If it was similar to the wax paper Duelund's I have. I always have wished I got CAST inductors as I "suspect" a huge improvement in noise reduction and dynamics and the WPIO was already huge. It is more a function of cost and speaker companies saving money and they all do on the crossovers. (most all anyway)
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@volleyguy1 Changing out the stock inductors in my Khorns for Jantzens was a real eye opener! Greater resolving, transparency, more natural timbre. I agree, more should try nice inductors, it appears not many have based on posts here. |
I had Jensen cap failures in Cary amps I ran some years ago, well known issue with those caps, Don't know if it was bad batch or inferior design or build quality.
I recently replaced four coupling caps in my 300B monoblocks with the Duelund CAST tinned copper, I'm with Charles in that they sound great right from the start, I do hear further opening up but I have a number of new components recently placed in service so multiple burn ins going on at present.
Just came upon this thread, haven't read entirety of it, but I run highly modified Khorns, using combo of Jupiter VT and Audyn True Copper Max in crossovers. Seems no one runs the True Copper Max, my second favorite cap after the Duelund CAST. |
I used the CAST PIO Cu foils in my speaker (Tweeter 5.6uf) and DAC output coupling caps 1uf. In both instances they were improvements immediately after installation and just continued to improve. In recollection I’d say about 100 to 150 hours. Perhaps very subtle further improvement beyond those hours. With Duelund CAST capacitors my assessment is you get what you paid for. Absolutely worth their cost given the better sound quality they yield. 10+ years now and still sounding beautifully natural and authentic. Charles |
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roxy54
Did they say why?
I did not get any "help" with the Jensen either but some were over 10+ years old and Jensen is out of business. How long should they last? Then what? Fix cap? Pay for damage to amp? Well the 1965 ones in the amp were still "good" in the sense they were not shorted out. The 2008-2012 or whatever the Jensen were, were shot... A bit of trial and tribulations this whole thing was plus stress. Plus stress on relationship with tech. My tech guy who I do like as a person, almost wanted to punish me. He does not like the whole industry at all! I get it. From his point of view he could never have a failure rate on his repairs as high as I did or he would be broke. Reputation would be shot. He would say this is not 1935 with old paper in oil caps. Not entirely wrong. I have had amps repaired with cheap poly caps and could not stand it. :/ Yet most of us do like the "sound" of these modern vintage caps. Thank goodness my damage was limited to one brand. That brand was often put into second amp as the caps were not cheap. After 3rd failure they were just all pulled completely. A tube amp can be a tough environment. |
Hi Charles
It is nice to talk to you after all this time! Glad to hear your Duelund CAST have worked out long term! My CAST in the speakers or my RS or VSF have never been a problem. Only in the amplifier itself which is of course much higher voltage and heat. (being a tube amp) Now the caps I used of course were all rated for that voltage. By far the most problems were with Jensen caps and all of the damage was with those caps. I would have to go count my cap total but it is well over 30. Maybe 40+ :) It adds up! When I am finished breaking the CAST Tinned Copper in it is going to be about the LONG break in! I started to hear some improvement at around 100 hours and that got me thinking and I went online and saw a post on here from Grannyring talking about the 400 hour break in. I knew it with CAST (more than RS or VSF) but never changed a whole amp at once. That was HUGE change. I would often change one or maybe two at a time. Not the whole amp! How long did you find the break in to be in speakers?
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Hi it’s nice to have you back and glad you are doing well. I have fond memories of this thread. I have had Duelund CAST capacitors in my Coincident Total Eclipse II speakers (Tweeter cap) and Yamamoto DAC for quite a number of years. Superb sound quality and fortunately no problems to report. Charles |
Hello Everyone
It has been now over 4 years since the last post. We have now moved and live in Cape Breton. So the room is not exactly the same room as the past. Actually a very different room! My tests have always been done not from memory though. Always run 3 amps of similar style and brand. Speaker tests were one cap at a time leaving the other speaker as it was.
I do have updates coming. I had one amp completely redone (Fisher 500C) with Duelund CAST tinned copper. (updates on that coming) I have a set of Duelund IC's now to evaluate. I can say when I had Chris at Parts Connexion install all the CAST caps I wondered what I had done. Very stiff, very mechanical. I was not mad just more disappointed. All of my past tests were often one cap at a time and test. Not replace the entire amp! It is very disorientating to replace all the caps at once. Going all the way to CAST caps.
One of the other amps has been rebuilt with all Jupiter Copper Foil caps. Another favourite of mine. During the Pandemic I could only get what was in stock. Limited of everything. I waited until March of this year to get the amps fixed because we did live fairly close to Parts Connexion but would not be after the move. So that being the reason to do it all at one time. (move)
I had issues for sure with Jensen Copper Paper tube caps. At least 3 of them had catastrophic failures. Two of the times damage was done to the amp. The third I caught in time. They would just fail after many years and for no reason. Right out of the blue! The scary part was not just the cost of the cap! The cost of losing cap but the damage and the hours to repair in shop! I had posted on this after failure 2 I think. After failure 3 all of the Jensen caps came out. I would never sell them even as used because it is just too risky for anyone. My repair guy from my home town was very good guy as I have mentioned years ago. To him take out ALL those exotic caps and problems go away. Yes, in a way...
He also suggested maybe that was the cost of having caps like this if I wanted the sound. In reality I wanted the sound but not the risk of fire or expensive damage. I have had Jupiter leads fall off. Duelund leak oil and Ampohm fail as well. None caused damage though except Jensen. Sadly. Nothing against the caps but one should be concerned. Maybe mine were bad batch but they were from different times.
I was checking the views of this thread. I knew it was a lot years ago but 10,853,109 is more than I think many would expect and for sure more than I expected!
When I started the blog I said well I could not find unbiased non advertising driven info on capacitors. How good were they? Compared to other things what was the value? So I just started posting my tests. I also wanted other people to post later on as well to confirm it. In the beginning I did not know if anyone would see it.
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Grannyring you like those Duelund Silver bypass? My tweeter in my speakers uses (2) 2uf. (can use 2.2uf) and I have replaced one speaker in bedroom system and trying to figure out what to do? That Duelund bypass is that good? I might have to do a comparison again of the amp now with many hours on the Jupiter caps against the Duelund. I must say I really enjoy the 2nd system but have not done a direct comparison. My daughter likes the bedroom system better. When I started off it was not even close now I listen to it easily as much. |
@audioman58 I went ahead at bypassed the .22uF copper foil with a .01uF CDE cap and have been putting some hours on them. It appears that the bypass cap helped the details better, but it does sound a little on the bright side. Perhaps I should continue to let it burn in more? I also have some blue cactus caps that I have yet to try. What are your opinion on these blue cactus caps? I was thinking that the Jupiter CF's would be better? What would be your recommendations? Thanks again! |
Thanks Audioman58! I just installed the Jupiter CF's that replaced the FT-3 Russian Teflon's. Appears that the volume output may have dropped just a tiny fraction. I know that they are new and need some hours on them. I guess I'll hear some slight changes as time goes on. There is a very slight graininess, but I imagine that is expected until they have some hours of burn time. I am hearing some finer details in the music though. The bass is good! I may wait and put some hours on them and perhaps later, I can add some .01uF/3000V Cornell Dubilier 940C's. BTW, are you a member on DIYaudio or Audiocircle? Thanks again! I will keep your suggestions in mind! |
To Gammag. You can use any variation you choose if you have the room. I have the Duelund bypass caps on my speakers. Here is a tip. You $$ can go much further is say you buy the value you need say a .33uf The Newer Duelund Jam caps have Exactly the same New type of Tinned Copper foil oil in paper dielectric, the only difference is the treated paper case which does make it better ,but not at 3x the cost just because of its case. It us for sure better then the Audyn Copper. The tin splits the difference vs silver, a great balance I have 3.3uf in my preamp could not be happier far better then the Mundorf Supreme silver oil I had . I now have a.22 Jam on my speaker to complement The .01uf Duelund Tinned Copper bypass cap .for the price of 1 .01 Duelund bypass I can almost buy2- .22 if Duelund Jam caps 20x the 1uf And 94% of The cast performance. For myself an excellent investment. Inside Identical tinned Copper, paper in oil, the Putter jacket has the damping treated paper, Vs the Aluminum I wrap 3m electrical tape around it 2x ,and small a chunk wrap on the leggs heated to form truly damps the caps at 1/3rd the cost well worth The effort. Myself and friends has found similar results, the take 400 hours + To fully runin on the big 3uf cap .22 give a week 150 hours. |
@audioman58 Hello audioman58! :) I was wondering about using the .22uF/600V Jupiter Copper Foil caps in some tube amps I have. I have Russian Teflon's already installed, and was going to try the Jupiter CF's and also add a .01uF Silver Duelund in parallel with the Jupiter. Do you think this would be OK? I've done this before with speaker crossovers, but not in a tube amp. Should I give it a try, or just use the Jupiter cap by itself? Thanks! |
Jupiter Copper foils do come in 2.2uf both in 100v and 600v. They are my favorites over even Duelund CAST. Want to really have the ultimate for less than crazy cost? Combine that 2.2uf Jupiter copper foil cap with the amazing Duelund .01 silver foil bypass cap and be ready to smile big! 500 hours of burn in before these caps are at their absolute best. Compare 200 hours vs 500 hours and they sound sooo much better at 500 hours. Not even close. Most folks don’t realize or believe this fact. |
In my opinion Audioman there is absolute better as you mentioned, foil vs. plastic then in fine tuning it can be synergy of every part in the system which can be what works best in synergy. Jupiter does not make 2.2uf Copper Foil 100v cap that I used in my speakers. The smallest is 3.3uf and it is $200 At my size Duelund RS 2.2 uf is $182. I keep hearing that Jupiter is much cheaper and it is in the .01uf size and I have some of those but over the range there is not much difference? (except in low uf) I find in small values the Duelund RS to be more dynamic than Jupiter and are physically bigger. (albeit more expensive) |
Hello Audioman No doubt on foil caps sounding better! Yes the Jupiter is cheaper at low uf values but at .47uf about the same and at 1uf actually costs more. Compared to Duelund RS that is which I feel is the best comparison. I have used both and lean Duelund but think one should hear both! I tried to rebuild a Linn Karik III/Numerik CD player to no avail. I had to sell it off. I have bought a newer Linn Majik CD and Naim CD5. I find the amp in by bedroom system a little harder with the newer Linn player and all my leftover caps. The amp is loaded with Duelund RS, Jensen Paper Copper foil, Jupiter Copper Foil and VCap cuft. Speakers caps are Duelund RS the cap I consider to be very good value, not cheap but I know what I am going to get. |
Personally I would not seek old capaciyors they dry out and leak especially speaking of spending hundreds if dollars West cap was huge in the 60s A Japanese team from 2007 to 2014 improved upon these classic caps to Today's standard the Arizona Red ,Blue ,and latest green All 3 are in mineral oil ,and Aluminum foil. The red uses just craft long grain pulp paper. The Blue paper and Mylar Mylar is richer sounding and better bass, Green has Mylar paper but more paper .Personally I like the Blue with Jupiter Copper foil Bees wax cap. This combination up there with best Duelund cast and $60% less expensive Jupiter letter mids but drier, Duelund more natural in that respect .add 10-20% cactus cap noe has the rich body of the Duelunds. Best small bypass caps, Duelund Silver oil .01uf, $100 a pop, put a few in your electronics Or speakers truly tightens up the detail. |
I have used Mundorf a lot in the past no more after a lot of research and comparing plastic is not organic sounding and foil is night and day better then metal sprayed on paper .2 minuses ,also a natural damping . my solution to myself and others that know caps put these very close to top Duelund cast for less then 1/2 . The Excellent Jupiter Copper foil bees wax cap 60-70%,and a Arizona - Blue Aluminum foil paper Mylar oil cap 30-40%. if needed to mix with a big cap Clarity CSA Excellent Big cap up to 100uf try a minimum of 10%, 25% of big cap ratio for best results. I guarantee you a great sound if listen to p.s take an smaller .47 close to the board as an extra cap to lower ESR, inductance. Arizona Cactus come in 3 mixes . red just paper, not as good on bass great mid- high, green cap higher ratio paper 70-30 paper Mylar , blue 60-40mylar ,paper a bit richer. Very good price and quality was West Cap back in the 60-70s think old LesPaul guitar 60s deep tone bingo Cactus cap ,these are better. |
My friend swears by the Quicksilver Gold contact enhancer. He uses it on all the pins of his ICs and on the inside parts that hold the IC onto the female connectors. He also uses it on tube pins, spade lugs, prongs of PCs, fuse ends, and he would use it on cartridge pins if he had a TT. He claims it dries very quickly, and takes about 3 weeks to start the improvement in sound once connected. After that, the sound improves in all parameters continuously for up to 6-7 weeks. You can disconnect the wires or tubes a couple times without having to do this all over again. You will have to wait again to hear the sound difference like the first time. Be sure of your equipment before you do all the work of using the contact cleaner--wait to dry--apply the enhancer--let dry--connect the piece to the system. According to my friend and Brian Kyle, IT IS WORTH THE EFFORT in the difference it makes--way more organic, clearer, less mechanical, more real sounding. The only drawback is the effort needed to do your whole system. It does the same for your home theater picture, same improvements as the sound. |
I have posted pics in my virtual system of some of the experiments and meltdowns of the last few years. As I bet the vintage power supply caps are a reason for the sound as Yazaki-san has mentioned, I too believe so is the paper bobbin output transformers. I have posted a pic of the downside of paper... (fire!) That is the output transformer that caught fire in my basement! Another one just shorted out. The junky x202 with the ASC power supply is posted as well. Sounded different than vintage power supply. Can not comment as I did not hear that "same" amp with vintage power supply. I know you are looking at the rough x202 but I am not going to test a poly power supply in a nice vintage amp! (hacking it up like that) A mint Fisher 500c all restored. I have the missing cap cover and correct volume knob. Amp builder called it a 9 to 9.5. I am going to do a nice looking mounting board for the Lascala's and will post pics. |
Grannyring I have uploaded a pic of the Mallory cap I have in an unused amp I am going to take parts out of. I have uploaded a pic of my one amp. It was like surgery getting those caps in there! Duelund VSF where the room was thin. Duelund RS and CAST where room. Jupiter on the phono stage again room was a big factor. Original power supply cap was replaced with Jensen Electrolytic and then vintage was put back in after a month... Yikes... Dry sounding. I have not found one good new electrolytic cap. (sound wise) I think that is a Jensen small electrolytic or Black Gate in main amp... The only electrolytic in amp! Which always seems to be a good thing... I am going to upload some of the experiments pics of over the last few years. Kind of embarrassed in some ways the time that was spent on this. A vintage Fisher x202 with ASC can caps in the power supply. Major surgery and a deck made to hold the huge caps! Ugly amp in rough shape so never intended to be main amp. Just came with a vintage wood case to use for my x101-st. My second amp is loaded with 2nd choice caps which are still very good! |
Grannyring I do not think you can buy the Mallory caps anymore? I will post pics of mine, which I have not heard. I do not think Mallory was so special just still making vintage power supply caps in the can like 50's and 60's and would have worked in the Marantz 7 kit. The ones I have are replacement for original in an old Fisher EL84 Receiver. I believe same era as Yazalde-san's. |
Volleyguy1, read Jeff's Day's latest blog, the article again, I believe Yazaki-san mentions the Mallory there briefly describing the benefit. grannyring, The name is Mallory, made in USA, back in the 40s-60s, I believe; mine is a 30MFD 450VDC, 637-53093 then below that number 235-81460. I further believe these Mallory caps are extremely difficult to find. I can't help you there. Yazaki-san was kind enough to send me one from his private stash since he made all the suggestions on how to improve the Coincident Dynamo, and improve it is an understatement. The Arizona Green Cactus also upped the ante big time over the stock Solen in the original Dynamo. The Ohmite Brown Devils with the above combo is just fabulous. Best, Mikirob |
Yazaki-San sent me the Mallory to strengthen the power supply in the Coincident Dynamo a couple of years ago along with the green Arizona capacitors. Those plus Ohm resistors made the Dynamo spectacular...Yazaki-san is a gem, a top-notch person as well as very excellent designer of most things audio. Best, mikirob |
I uploaded some pics of the man cave. We have a set of Pearl Drums in the basement. I use them now for sound comparisons with the speakers. I have to admit the sound is close but real drums have more energy than speaker reproduced sound. I wish I would have got a Duelund CAST woofer inductor over VSF. I think it would have close the gap from already very good to more energy. |
I am glad to see on Jeff's Yazaki-san mention his old Marantz 7 pre-amp and the power supply cap. (Mallory) In one of my old Fisher amps (I was going to part out) has (what looks like a late 70's early 80's) Mallory power supply caps which I am going to take out to keep. I have taken out all the old tubes. I have mentioned on here before about struggling to replace old power supply caps with new electrolytic caps. I had replaced a vintage one with Jensen and did not go well put the old one back in. (thank goodness I did not replace due to being finished) I am glad Audio Note is working on a replacement for the famed Black gates WKZ. Even Jimmy on Jimmy's junkyard was working on new cap. I have mentioned before I am worried when mine go bad. I can not find a good replacement. I am glad others are working on suitable electrolytic cap replacements! |
In fact WE caps are more expensive than Duelund RS. $825 vs. $620 for the ones I need. http://www.hifitown.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29898 |
The old vintage aluminum foil in oil cans are out. They sloshed when you shook them, so no resonance control at all. Replacing the caps with Duelund RS again sounds like completely different speakers. The vintage caps are extremely alive. The problem again this is too much resonance. So far it has been just like many years ago. It was not easy (years ago) to replace the original caps and maintain the foil in oil sound until Duelund VSF caps went in. The other caps then poly caps changed the sound extremely. (plasticized the sound) My wife (years ago) did a double blind test of Sonic Caps vs. vintage and was utterly shocked at the difference and chose the vintage caps... She thought I did a great thing! Problem was she was picking the vintage oil caps... Duelund RS, juicy detail, listener fatique way down, natural sounds. MASSIVE cut in noise. More relaxing grown up sound. Vintage oil caps, things sound like a lively noisy rock concert even when you know it was recorded in a studio, noisy high freq with loss of control of high freq. Listener fatique. In short bursts maybe the most alive sound ever? Could any vintage cap (Western Electric etc) of any era sound like Duelund RS? I can not imagine it? Was anyone using resonance control? Vintage caps certainly no bargain. Better I would like to know how? Other than vintage. Certainly a large group like WE wire but general consensus is Duelund better. I have both but have not compared. The Duelund now sounds very good with Duelund RS tweeter caps. http://www.hifitown.com/index.php?dispatch=categories.view&category_id=179 |
Schubert The Gold Lions were two matched sets with date codes 2011 and 2012. The ones in use for 4 years are worn out sound not as good as the old tubes I have. One set maybe 10,000 hours the other 7500. The Psvane's 12ax7's are clearly not worn out at this time with in between the other two pairs. I liked the sound of Gold Lion's better but they might not last as long. The Psvane's in first test sound as good as vintage, easily. |
At the beginning of this thread I felt in the dark. sometimes I wasted money reading ads on caps etc. As time went on through recommendations my cap choices narrowed to the likes of Duelund, Jupiter, Jensen and VCapCuft and I am using every single one of them now, some I like more than others but none of those are anything but very good! |
I agree with Grannyring on many new exciting parts. The internet and threads like this have really changed audio. The world wide market has opened competition to supply to enthusiasts with these parts. to Eric Value can be something like Duelund 16ga tinned copper wrapped in cotton. Not expensive at all and I think cheaper than any Duelund wire ever. Is it not the internet, threads like this or blogs like Jeff's place that give consensus (somewhat) to value? Eric like your recommendation for the lower cost Mundorf caps being good value. it is very hard now for a company to have high prices to low value with a bunch of people like everyone who has posted here. You get found out pretty quick! |
@slowikpl What did you mean by "worst case" on the Duelunds? Do you mean they don’t have a tight tolerance? @salectric I have found how a resistor, cap, or wire performs in a given is completely system dependent. Completely. I tried the new Duelund 16 ga as speaker cable and did not like in my system after 120 hours of break in. I change my USB cable to Curious and power cords to Furutech and I now love the Duelund 16 ga on my speakers highs and mids. I just love it. Success or failure of a given part is hit or miss based on my experience. I loved the Path Audio resistors on a Raal tweeter as part of a two way design. So easy to listen to and open. Nicely resolving with a comfortable ease that the Raal tweeter liked. I liked 😊 Many new parts have come out that are very exciting like Duelund stranded/tinned wire, Arizona Blue and Green Cactus caps, Duelund tinned copper caps, Lefson resistors, Clarity range of caps.....etc..... |
