Thanx fellas. All caps r .22's, both pre & monos. A pr. In each
mono & a pr. of .22 MRs already installed in the pre. Each mono
has 2 6C33C bottles w/4 12at7s, about 50wpc. The V-cap coppers
'sound' attractive, as I've a friend w/the 'non coppers' in a pr. of monos
which always sound really good, but, I gotta choose btw. the MRs or
the Dueland 'Alex's @this time. Sale prices thru July @PartsConnection. I've heard the other Duelands @RMAF as I live in CO. & they are always amongst the best sounding rooms, (@least in speakers), & the MRs r
doing a lot of things right. Decisions, decisions... |
Looking for some advice. Run a full tube rig w/6c33 monos, tube pre,
modwright transporter, audio magic liquid cables, hot rodded da-1s.
Rolled the clarity mr caps into the pre, very nice upgrade, lots of air, great
extension & spaciousness. I am considering either the MR or the dueland
Alexandria for the tube monos. Someone mentioned that duelands don't
mix well with other caps so I am hesitant...... any experience/suggestions?
Thanx. |
So, order in 4 the Dueland 'Alex's, .22 for my Mig monos. They will replace a pr.
of Aeon coupling caps. I'm a bit 'nervous' as I've yet to see any detailed
description on these as everyone seems to focus on the upper models. As
noted, oil in tube amps, may portend reliability issues vs teflon or 'poly'. I can
always swap out for the MRs if I end up w/too much added 'color', or pay up for
the likes of cutf vcaps. My only prior experience w/'oils' is a pr. of Mundorf s/o/g in a pre that long gone. So its MR's in the pre, & 'Alex's in the amps for a
spin. I've replaced all the small signal 12at7 tubes in the migs, which were originally mullards w/psvanes as that was a bit too much 'rounded' or old fashioned of a tube signature, did I just put myself back in the same boat?
I like textures & tonal colors w/layering & spaciousness. All of my power
cords & interconnect/spkr wire are Audio Magic clairvoyant liquids, made of
polymers, the most natural sounding cables I've heard. They don't carry rf,
r dead quiet, & super natural sounding. More than the various copper, silver, & golds I've tried. Many of the discussions here on capacitors, could be at
least partially transcribed onto my experience w/cables w/the liquid polymers
being the best, most natural & tonally correct. The 'metals' bring a coloration,
a signature of sorts w/various 'emphasis'. Jerry of Audio Magic says they 'ring' as a way to describe the difference. Anyways, I'm in for the experience
& having some fun, as always in audio & life, the education continues....
|
"I'll add that listening to a low-resonance capacitor-- or a low-resonance wire, assuming that this is the purpose of the oiled silk jackets on the Duelund wire-- can take some getting used to. Once the microphonic "excitement" is gone, one needs to evaluate whether musical information has gone missing as well."
Write it in stone. The same is true for cables. That was a big surprise for
me, totally unexpected. I tried a single 'liquid" power cord in my rig, feeding a conditioner & it just sounded 'right'. A bit quieter, more layering
of vocals (it was holiday music), just more real. Each one, power &
Interconnect added to the effect, simply more real. Never 'spectacular'
effects, but quieter so that instruments are more distinct & identifiable.
For a few weeks as this was completed I did have a question as if I had
'rolled the treble', it was so quiet. But, no way! All the music is there in
a way that is totally non fatiguing & so well balanced top to btm. Good
recordings are fully fleshed out in a most enjoyable & satisfying way w/detail & air, but never harsh. I'm looking for a bit more 'focus' by rolling
caps. Though it may be my speakers or isolation equip. under the migs,
I figure that the Aeon caps, though musical, may be 'upgradable'.
Anyways I find it iintersting that caps have a similar 'fingerprint', & look
forward to getting the 'alex's into the mugs. |
That should read 'migs', as in Mig fighter jet tubes, not 'mugs'. I should
also mention I run a pr. of JBL pro 'slot' supertweeters, not the 'bullets.
These r run on lpads w/solid silver wire from the spkr. terminals & sit atop
the Daedalus. A really nice addition if you can find them. |
I've the 'Alex's in my 'mig amps' for a couple of weeks now. Probably about
50hrs total. These r the best 'oil caps' I've heard, Mundorf SGO being the others, in my amps. Up to about 20hrs. a 'wee bit' of stridency on some leading edge female vocals that has now disappeared. Compared to the Aeons, they sound is much more visceral & tonally correct. They have more body & 'flesh on
bone', & the family resemblance w/the more expensive Duelands is apparent. They've opened up & become more spatially distinct & both lows & highs seem
clear, tight, & extended. The presentation is more, 'out of the box', and the Daedalus disappear more as the source of the music, the soundstage is also
deeper. Perhaps this contributes to the 'greater body' sensation. Detail is improved across the frequency spectrum & dynamics seem very good, w/tracks
such as Warren Haynes, River's Gonna Rise, pounding out its drum intro. In the 'Migs' they seem organic, natural, earthy & rooted. A bit 'softer' in presentation, but more 'lit from within', at least that's how the 'oils' seem in the 'Migs'.
All said, i'm still at a bit of an impasse looking for degrees of
'more optimization'. I'm wondering if using the Clarity MRs in my pre & 'Alex's
in the amps is the optimal use of such. I don't have experience in 'what should
be where' placement. Am I getting the best of both or half/assed of each?
Any suggestions/experiences? If the MRs aren't as 'transparent' in the pre, yet
bring nice air & extensions high & low is that bringing anything that the more
well toned 'Alex's would in the pre? The Clarity seem a terrific cap for the money, but I want to 'eek out' as much performance via the pre as I can & anything lost in the pre, can't be reclaimed by the amps. Is there any 'consensus' as too using the MRs in say speakers, & the more 'exotics' in electronics, as to being optimal? Am I correct in 'assuming' that going to
'exotic' caps in the pre will pay dividends heard downstream. Matching up
Alex's, or mixing the more upscale Duelands or even the copper Vcaps? |
Sorry to 'hear' that the 'Alex's have gone mia in your rig. I suppose I'll find
out in my own soon. There doesn't seem to be much out there in cyber world
as to what to expect as they r pretty new. I had some 3.3s in the Dodd battery
pre & replaced the base teflons w/Mundorfs SGO. That was a pretty big cap for a pre, what type of tube pre r u running? Perhaps the larger cap will take more
time to fully break in.
My current pre uses .22s, the same as my amps. The MR's r very good & there
is nothing wrong in the sound or presentation but, there's no fool like an audio
fool, so the quest continues, trying to 'take it up a notch'. I suppose w/the
current info. I should sit on the config for a month or so & see how things
'evolve'. I'm hoping the Alex's 'open up' even more, but as of now they sound
very good.
Michaelvv, it sounds as if you & I r on a 'bit of the same path' w/the 6C33C bottles and such. What caps r in these currently? Your suggestion as to the
CuVcaps is tempting as they seem to provide tone & detail in abundance which
would be a nice step up perhaps, in my own pre. I suppose that since both
they & the Alex's have copper foil it comes down to how would teflon & oil mix?
;-) Modern alchemy as such.... |
Hi Fellas, Merry Xmas! I've went & had some copper teflon vcaps (.22s) dropped
into my custom pre for close to 50hrs now. They replaced the Clarity's & feed
into a passive biamp of a G8000 Sansui (lows) & my Dueland Alex powered 'Mig
amps' (tweets) into a pr. of Castle Conway III's. I was concerned about the break
in time but the Vcaps sound very nice w/a real improvement in the lower mids,
& overall improvement in detail. I like em a lot & the setup has a certain
'rightness'. I run Audio Magics liquid cables from Modwright Transporter to custome pre, toSansui, to spkr. & solid silver/teflon to migs, spkr, & JBL supertwtrs. Somehow,it all matches up to a lovely, bold, compelling sound! Success! I think that if you r familiar w/the sound of the big Gseries, it somehow matches up well w/the Alexs coming from the migs. The Gseries have a big, robust, if a tad warm sound for a solid state amp, that matches up well w/the copper foil/oilAlex's.
It 'only' took me 15yrs to finally find out how incredibly effective bi-amping is
for certain spkrs. I picked up those Castles for a song, & have several other spkrs that cost much more, so it is pretty remarkable the sound that they r
capable of producing in such a set-up. Two thumbs up for the copper/foil
V-caps!
|
Volley, the conditioner is a passive type. It has 4 digital outlets. 4 preamp outlets. 2 amp outlets. 5 duos in all, 2 digital, 2 pre, 1 amp. These r the orange, hospital grade type that offer a good solid copper connection. Nothing too exotic. It is divided into two input sections. The digital
and the preamp sections r fronted by their own CMCs, (common mode chokes).
Each input has its own ground. The amp section shares a ground w/the preamp, but is not fronted by the CMC. Those chokes must be properly sized for the amplifier used... If the CMC was too small it effects the amps performance.
The 'bypass' you mention, is simply to connect the capacitor on the outlets from
neutral to ground. The Yamaha A-S2000, & CDS-2000 floats the ground. There r no ground pins, only hot & neutral, so by filtering the neutral to ground on the input, the amps only see a clean, filtered neutral.
Whatever 'type' of cap one uses, you can easily id its 'signature' sound downstream. Frankly to an astonishing extent. The conditioner offers an easily
accessible test bed to rotate & test this out. I have 3 dedicated 10g lines from
a subpanel for my audio system. So I use two of these to feed each the digital &
the amp/pre sections of the conditioner.
Cautions apply. Use caps that are rated high enough for the voltage required.
Foil type caps, like the CuTf & Dueland r supposed no-no's, as they won't 'fail'
properly. If one attempts to filter, from hot to neutral, & one uses a cap 'too large', anything over 'somewhere' around 3 or 4uf (take your pick), heat can become an issue and a cap can 'fail', explode. Filtering neutral to ground you don't have this problem, & quiet frankly sounds more effective. Do this & I would not think you would have any problems. It's easy & the impact upon ones
system is pretty dramatic... in a good sense. Blacker backgrounds, wider & deeper soundstage, more separation of instruments, more focus, less 'hash', ect... I started out using .22s I had rolled into my pramp over the yrs.
Caps 'colour' ones system in a similar way as different tube type 'colour' ones
components. Flavor to taste. What led me down this road, was borrowing a
conditioner from a friend & putting the unit on my mac mini music server downstairs on a different floor from my main rig. Within a day or two, the system developed a 'metallic oil sheen' throughout the whole frequency range.
When I brought the conditioner back to my friend & we opened it up, there was
a large oil in metal cap following the CMC to the outlets. So a music server, on a
different floor, connected wirelessly to the Transporter, effected everything downstream in the listening room. That, for me, was quite a 'rabbit hole' to tumble down.
You get the idea...
After that I opened up the larger conditioner on the main rig upstairs &
removed the little .01uf caps I found on the outlets & replaced them w/the
larger, various caps on hand, a bunch of .22s. Results; one can easily change the character of say, a dac, pre, or amplifier by rolling the appropriate cap, on the outlet, that feeds the component. Go figure...
As 'Uncle Jerry' said, "... what a long strange trip it's been." |
I like em.... But I put them in a couple of 'unusual' uses. First I've got a pr.
of JBL Pro 'slot' super tweeters. These had a 1.0 uf Dayton cap, but required a 1.7 so I put in a pr. of 1.0 & .68s. Instant upgrade as you could
hear the extended reach, particularly 'lower down' for a fuller & more fleshed out treble.
The 'other' way I used them is inside my power conditioner. A passive filtering type unit w/separate digital & amplifier inputs with matching outlets,
fronted by CMCs. I used prs. of 4.7s & 3.0s on the neutral to ground outlets of the amp & preamp sections. I prefer Mundorf S/G/O on the
digital section outlets. A pr, of 3.3s.
As Grannyring states the caps r very good. They r physically small, but
I've compared them against others I'm familiar with, Clarity MRs, Sonicap
Platinums, CuTF V-Caps. They 'play well' w/the Mundorfs. |
I also have Duelands Cast in my preamp. The JFX r small & lite. They
have slam & extension at both ends. They r spacious & airy. They may
lack the ultimate body of the Cast. For me, they seem a bit to 'literal' fronting my digital source, a Modwright Transporter. Hence I prefer the
'vocal prescience' of the Mundorf S/G/O. They do seem 'natural' & musical,
They pass what is fed 'em & instruments seem easily discernable within the
mix.
I lived w/all of the mentioned caps in my preamp. When I started to mod the conditioner, I used what I had. It was surprisingly easy to ID each caps
'signature', even though they r b4 the audio signal.
The Modwright Transporter runs both balanced transformer coupled out, &
capacitor coupled RCAs. I get the sense that the Transporter into pre w/Duelands caps via RCAs sounds much like the transformer balanced outs direct into my amp, a Yamaha A-S2000.
I've pretty much given up on getting the CuTF V-Caps to exhibit any sense
of air. Excellent tone & body but I haven't found a place where I think they
shine. I like the Sonicap Platinums as very musical & easy to listen, but
perhaps not as ultimately resolving as others. Clarity MRs r darn good,
neutral & well balanced, airy, but I didn't have enough room in the conditioner to pursue installing the larger values.
One needs to understand I compared all of theses, except the Duelands, in
the power conditioner. I mixed, matched, & rotated these 'dogs' over several months time. As I came to understand the tonal inflections &
character each brought to the filter/feeding of the digital, preamp, & amp
sections, I simply feel S/G/O 'plays well' on digital sources. It's a great cap. Killer vocals. Great soundstage. The JFXs take that & send it out via pre & amp w/aplomb. Now the Duelands may do that ever more so, but i already owned the Mundorfs & the JFXs size & cost made an easy choice for the larger values. They have an incisive spacious sound w/very good attack & decay, require little break in & represent exceptional value. |
Don't know where this leads, but something 4 the holiday reading list.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue65/reader5.htm |
In a power conditioner, w/Mun S/G/O 3.3uf, .22 CuTf VCap is about perfect.
Expect long break in. Those JFX r impressive, but never 'loosened up', they remain rather clinical, cold in comparison. The VCaps will go up & down for a long time, but they resolve more detail & flesh out the lower mids in a way nothing else does, including Dueland. S/G/O & CuTf is the best I've heard, remaining musical w/gobs of resolution. The 'center of gravity' lower, has a certain 'grip' on the music. As always, everything in combination.... |
For yrs. I rolled preamp coupling caps. Multicaps, Sonicap Platinums, Clarity MRs, Mundorf S//G/O, CuTf V-Cap. JFX Premium, Dueland Cast,
mostly .22s, never in bypass mode. I also rolled most of those, including Dueland Alexander's thru a pr. of Mig 6c33c monos. I've two systems, one up, one down, each w/3 10g runs to an isolated subpanel. The 3 down r on Isoclean gold outlets, the 3 up, Watt gate silvers.
One day while wondering what to do w/all the used caps I took a closer look inside a power conditioner. Some tiny little .01s from neutral to ground
were replaced by .22s & so the experiment began that lasted well over a yr.
The outlets in the conditioner, mine had 5 duplexes out, w/ two individual legs in, also effect the sound. I replaced several of the orange hospital grade outlets w/Oyaide R-0s. You'd have to hear the two side by side in a neutrally cabled system, but the R-0s definitely bring 'more' to the table, after a bit of break in.
For the longest time I couldn't figure out how to utilize the CuTf Vs. They
definitely brought something special no other cap did, but alone or matched w/other .22s in the conditioner they were 'relentless', not forgiving & ultimately unmusical. So I kept taking them out. In retrospect they seemed
'tight', almost 'driven', but to much so.
They really do take what seems like forever to break in, to loosen up When I first tried matching them up w/the 3.3uf S/G/O I was pretty shocked at how they seemed to bring out the best of each. That proportion seems about right. The 'disconnect' when matching two different cap types, was mostly absent. I say mostly, because I think the V-Caps still needed additional break in. Evan so, the combo was special. Music had robust drive plus the dimensionality & focus, something akin to what a Amprex Bugle Boy brings to the table in a nice preamp. Depth & width, perhaps not the height.
That's pretty high praise. Those who've heard such & know their Mullards from their Amprex's, know the life & 'sparkle', the extended treble that leaves ones ears 'hungary', that bit of 'special dimensionality' that is difficult to find. Mullard in comparison r your favorite comfy slippers. Easy to wear, friendly, but perhaps a bit mishapen.
I run that conditioner mostly feeding a Yamaha A-S2000. CDS-2000. & Kef LS-50s. A very transparent, neutral, & spacious combination. When I do swap in another amp/pre/spkr or frontend, the basic character remains.
One other note or subject I'd like to address. After playing w/this combo I'd take issue w/those who claim, say the Kef LS-50 is only a 'near field' speaker. Clean power & conditioning make any speaker much more effective in filling a room. These little guys go plenty low @ good volume levels. They have coherency & dynamics & show any & all upstream changes, especially cables, ect... If it is warm it is warm, if it is rounded it is rounded. You will hear exactly what your 59' Valvo rectifier, your 6sn7 metal base, or your favorite silver speaker wire brings to the table, & you may be surprised! Can you handle the truth? I ended up stripping out many of the 'tweaks' accumulated over the years, including larger speakers.
In my room, effective passive conditioning went a long ways to bringing truth & beauty, (CuTf V-Cap & Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil) 2gether. |
Folks may recall that I've been rolling any number of caps thru a custom RK-34 pre, & line conditioners for a while. I've taken the pre and it's variations out of the loop and am only rolling in the conditioners at this time.
Mundorf SGO, Dueland Cast, CuTf V-cap, & the new Jupiter coppers, filtering/conditioning each system components. So 4 conditioner sections fed via 3 isolated lines from a sub panel. 1 leg is split into 2. one with a common mode choke & one w/out that feeds my amp, a Yamaha A-S2000. The other two individual legs go one each to dac, a Modwright Transporter, & the other to a Mac mini & g-raid which feed the transporter via ethernet.
I've shuffled these things around an awful lot and lived with the various caps feeding the different components so I thought some may derive some
value as I am satisfied I've a handle on how they interact in my rig.
First, I like the CuTf V-caps feeding my amp. They do take a long, long, time to break in, but they r fast, musical, detailed, and consistent. They don't vary in performance the way an oil cap does when in a demanding position. I can't say for sure, but I think that those teflon caps maintain their character when under duress better than other materials. I like em where there is high heat/ current draw. They pass what they r fed, not adding color or tone of their own.
I do like the oil caps, both Dueland & Mundorf SGO breath life & dimensionality (like tubes) into audio reproduction. I would not want to do without 'some' so... I prefer the Duelands on the Transporter/dac. Matched up with the right tubes and power cords it is 'just right'. Oils do great tone, body. vocals. The Transporter has a class A tube output stage, but so far the Duelands don't seem to 'shape shift' under duress or prolonged use.
The SGO filter the power for blueray, Apple TV, direct tv receiver, & a plasma tv. I like this cap. They do so much well & for a long time I bypassed em w/ the CuTfs. Ultimately they r a tad highlighted, but I still like em. My first 'oil'.... & quite frankly an excellent cap. Musical & enjoyable on the digital, i think they changed a bit when stressed by the amp section. I've all the caps in .22 values, but also a pr. of 3.3s in the SGO. With the larger cap it is possible to hear the 'shape shift' during a long session with the amp playing at relatively high volumes.
The Jupiters filter my Mac mini & my music library on the hard disk. For those who haven't tried conditioning their 'source' material it makes as
much of a difference as conditioning any other component. The speed & detail retrieval r superb and I don't believe current draw/heat is an issue on the computer/source. They seem as fast as the V-caps, a touch less body than Dueland, but very evenhanded. They demonstrate plenty of leading edge attack and extension. I like to think the Duelands on the dac just flesh it out a bit, adding a bit of meat on the bones in the same way a 6sn7 does vs a DR Russian supertube in the transporter. The V-Caps in comparison 'are not a tube'.
The overall effect is great! Open, spacious, musical, detailed, even handed, life-like, extended @ both ends, fleshed out from within so it's easy to follow musical details & fun to listen too! A great balance! The copper foil caps bring musical goodness to the proceedings. (The SGO
may not be coppers but I still enjoy em, they r simply highlighted a bit, tin foil?).
Perhaps focusing on a single cap would be better, but I'm not to sure...
Getting the right cap in the right place seems critical as I've moved these around and getting everything to fall into place was much more hard work than dumb luck. Tearing apart the way ones rig is put together for the hundredth time borders on obsession, but ....
Damn this sounds good.
CuTf do take forever, even longer to breakin. Initially they r dense and tight, very 'robust' sounding, & until you get it right may seem too 'literal', but with time, they r very good. They've got 'balls'...
The Jupiters break in much faster. Not as dense, perhaps? Would they
hold up under duress as well as the teflons? Not sure, maybe the relative lightness would be an asset, less material to 'distort', under high temp/stress. Wax being wax, like oil could be subject to the effects of heat/stress, but I can't say for sure.
I like the oils, on source. They sound a bit slower on amps in comparison which may suit some music but I noted several instances when the nature of a larger value oil cap 'changed' as a listening session went on. They seem to loose a bit of focus and you find yourself twisting the volume knob in search of more dynamic contrast.
Great caps in the wrong position have subtle but profound effects, perhaps that Hammond B-3 doesn't sound 'quite' real in dynamics or tone. The musical flow, it's timing, PRAT, can be just a touch off, artificial.
These guys don't design caps in a vacuum, more likely they are familiar with one another's and may even design to fit accordingly.
The copper foils all seem to share a common musicality with some variation in presentation.
Regards... |
