On Jeff's place he has the same style autotransformer as I do.
I have thought for a long time this would be a weak link. Very thin gauge wire. On here a long time ago I asked Frederik about building autotransformers and glad to see he has!
On this site there is some flack about the price and no doubt at $4500 U.S. each for the copper ones...
Ordered direct as no doubt it will be a fairly small market to say the least. Nevertheless I am glad Frederik is doing this as removing weakness is part of this hobby even if it is not affordable. (to me anyway)
Now the original focus of this thread was parts for the dollar. I can not imagine that )and I bet the autotransformer are better) that the bang for the buck is anywhere near replacing an entire crossover and all coupling caps in the amp for likely the same money...
There has been good advice on here where to start for most bang for the buck... (tweeter, phono and line stage caps always seem top of the list) |
Sorry the link
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=5784 |
For those of you interested in the new Jupiter copper caps. Thus far my listening proves out they have the same noise free personality of the Duelund CAST. They must build these like the CAST in some way as they are well damped and seem to remove noise like the Duelund CAST.
They are beautiful sounding with no weakness I can detect as yet. |
Bill,
That is very good news. For those who find the Duelund CAST too expensive the Jupiter caps would be a wonderful alternative to improving their sound. The results I achieved with the CAST should be available to more music lovers.
Charles, |
Bill great description of the CAST caps. They remove all kinds of noise while giving you the musicality with out sounding lean or bleached. |
Well, my package of Duelund VSF Black, Duelund CAST resistors and Jantzen Audio Superior Z Caps FINALLY arrived. Ordered on January 15th and arrived last week! That should give everyone some idea about how busy Duelund have become.
I'm re-wiring using Neotech 6N copper/teflon as well. I'm most of the way through rewiring and rebuilding crossovers in the first speaker and - aside from the fact that I'm really slow - all seems to be going well.
Charles1dad - I've said it before and I'll say it again, you are HUGELY fortunate you bought the Total Eclipse V2. The crossover and wiring in my speaker is all kinds of tricky to work with.Thank heavens I bought the VSF Black instead of the CAST caps for the tweeter - even they were really difficult to tuck into the Tweeter/mid compartment.
I should have my first speaker finished by tomorrow sometime. I'm re-checking everything around 20 times but still live in mortal fear that I'll reverse wire something. So far so good.
Grannyring - I just don't know how you can revisit this kind of thing when you've done it once. Once this is finished, all being well, I hope to never open these things up again!
Tas |
Tas let us know the results!
Well the Jupiter copper caps have settled in and oh my they are first rate. Solidity and refinement with no part of the music spectrum out of balance. Top to bottom pitch perfect coherency and tone. Based on my knowledge with extensive use of the Duelund CAST caps in various pieces of gear and the resulting change (electronics)......I would say the following is the one area of of main difference between these two caps.
The Duelund CAST caps emphasize the mids just a tad over the rest of the spectrum. The new Jupiter caps do not. They play music more even handed top to bottom in my estimation. Some will feel the CAST are more revealing or resolute, but it may just be the tad bit of midrange boost.
One would have to hear the Jupiter caps to understand the difference. My comments are based on electronics, not speakers. The Jupiter caps are not available in values over 1uf right now.
The CAST and Jupiter caps are two great choices for sure. I don't feel choosing one way or the other in electronics leaves much room for buyers remorse or opportunity cost. |
More on order for my digital front end now! |
Bill, how long do you think it took for the Jupiter caps to settle in? I found they sound pretty darn good after just a few hours in my amp. When do they hit their stride? |
Grannyring, do the Jupiters have more high frequency refinement and air than the Duelund CAST? To my ears that is the one area where the CAST fall short. |
1markr
You are right. These Jupiter caps sound good right away. Good, not great, but very, very good. I found only 50 hours really begins to show these puppies off. |
Salectric,
Boy that is a great question and a little difficult to answer in some ways. The refinement part is easy. Yes, the Jupiters are more refined and solid sounding if you will. Smooth and tidy!
As far as air, I cannot say the Jupiters have more air. At least not at this point. |
I also find the micro-details are amazing and they are served up with naturalness that defies most electronic gear. |
Hi Grannyring,question, Do you install, and solder your own cap up-grades that are under discussion here? |
Grannyring
These are the Copper foil that are for sale at partsconnexion?
I might try some of these. I could use some small value caps. |
Grannyring, how would you describe the Jupiters compared to the JB JFX? I know you felt the JFX was a decent alternative to the CAST caps a few months ago. Since my reactions to the JFX were not as positive, I am trying to get some context for your comments on the Jupiter. |
JFX caps are a steal for the money in electronics as they cost $4 each! I would rather use JFX as compared to any Mundorf caps, Solen etc.....
In terms of how they compare to Jupiter in electronics, well not in the same league at all. |
Had my one amp in today to the co-incidentally local guy who is an amp builder and repair. Something is not quite right.
He always has some very good gear in for repair and of course lots of guitar amps.
In testing he took out the tubes and the Gold Lion 12AX7's test very strong. I have found the Gold Lions to be very dynamic and the Psvane did not test as strong although well within normal.
The EL 84 7189/6BQ5 Russian Preffered series ('80's military spec I am told) are a little weak after 1 to 2,000 hours in 13 months. New tubes Gold Lions coming. I guess normal for this type of tube.
One thing that did really surprise me one Duelund CAST cap was leaking oil and was wet. Not sure if this is what has sent sound off? It has not been tested yet as the volume control pot needs replacing on the amp and I will have him check it out then.
Now back listening to original amp that started this thread years ago. Just a dead quiet vintage amp that blew me away. |
Volleyguy1
Duelund CAST that was leaking oil? Interesting to hear. I have wondered if these amazing parts ever go "off" and, if they ever did, what support we'd get from Duelund. Do you have any idea if you stand a good chance of a free repair/replacement from Duelund if required?
Re the dead quiet vintage amp....I'm completely convinced that 80 or so years ago there were production techniques for caps, and maybe even power supplies, that we may have left behind. If someone knew how to make an amp dead quiet then I'm hoping that that will be the case again and again. Viva la research and well done Jupiter for forging ahead with better cap building techniques!
For my own part I just love the idea that I've gotten off the "new unit merry go round". I'd rather sort out something I own and make it work properly than buy yet another seller's promise of the perfect source component, line stage, amplifier....whatever.
Tas |
Tas,
We share the same philosophy regarding audio components. Buy the components that really move you and connect emotionally with your music, then try to extract the most potential they have to offer. This approach has worked beautifully for me .
Charles, |
Right on Charles this should be the audio bible nothing else to say. |
AudioL,
Yes I do sir. In my current pieces I have modifications in my preamp, speakers and amplifiers. |
Charles
Here here! For all of my life I've loved music. For most of my life I've loved the idea of enjoying music at home. After years and years of expensive HiFi frustration and, finally coming to the conclusion that one needed to be a multi millionaire to experiment and even then not be completely satisfied with my sound - I finally land on my feet in this forum. The internet and blogs like this one are a gold mine of information. Knowing what has been and is being tried and proven on equipment very similar to my own is remarkable information. I feel as though I'm FINALLY in control of this vague process of being satisfied with what I use to listen to my music. We - all of us here, have no vested interest other than freely offering information in the hope that we all take steps ahead and find peace, satisfaction and joy in this pursuit of beautiful music.
Removing the "kinks" or weaknesses in our systems can produce extraordinary results.
I'm a believer and a convert......free at last! (Somewhat passionate sounding..lol. Not meant to sound zealous - it's just such a relief to finally get to this point!!)
Tas |
I know Tas it took me 35 years to finally get where I enjoy the music and don't worry about the equipment. |
Tas,
Well said and I understand your passion. Once people realize to focus on the "natural" reproduction of music in place of hifi dogma and criteria they're much better off (and happier). I want to enjoy music rather than analyze and obsess over the sound.
Charles |
@ Grannyring, very impressive!, what caps work to best effect for speakers that will not sound analitical, sterile,cold, or a forward presatation? |
AudioL,
Great question. Well you have choices, best choices, at various price points.
The best choice for reasonable money are the Jupiter HT flat stacked. They are very musical and the opposite of cold and sterile. They offer a wonderful balance of resolution and meat on the bones musicality.
I have not had good luck with any of the Mundorf caps in this position. They tend to sound a tad thin and a tad emphasized in the upper mids and treble. At first they are impressive, but over time they wear on my ears.
If you want to spend even less, then the Obbligato Premium Gold caps are very good for the money.
If you want the best of the best and price is not a concern, then you have two choices. The Duelund CAST caps and the coming Jupiter copper foil. The Jupiter caps are far less money and are in production as I type. They should be available soon. Based on the performance of the electronic sizes now available, I think I would go with the new Jupiter copper foil. They are as good and far less money. At least this has been true of the values up to 1uf thus far. |
Thankyou Grannyring, very imformative, I do not know anything about after market caps, how much more performance have you got replacing caps in your speakers, 10%, 20%, etc.. |
Audiolabyrinth
One of the most important things I did to get into this was to read. Many of the questions you have, have already been asked and answered in this blog. People's experiences here have been extensive and they have written about them extensively in the many pages before this one. I suggest you start going through some of them. You may start answering some questions you didn't even know you had!
Highly recommended.
Tas |
AudioL,
It it so difficult to talk in percentages of improvement as numbers don't really seem to get at the actual experience.
If forced, I would say 30%, but more importantly the music is demonstrably more engaging and real. Less Hifi....more real. |
@ Grannyring, Wow!, That is a huge improvement, worth looking into, @ Tasouli, Hi, I agree with you about reading this thread, However, I knew Grannyring is a seasoned audiophile, and has been doing cap up-grades for a while now, and reading many of his post for a couple of years, I trust his Ears, His opinions, I also like his tast in pre-amps as well to, The Dude pre-amp, Grannyring's description of sound, engaging and real, less hi-fi is spot on with what I do, cheers. |
Tas
I will find out the cap is going back. I happen to have an extra here so no big deal except the break in time.
With the dead quiet vintage amp... In the past speakers were often horns. The enemy of horns is noise. I used to go as a kid to a theater that had the big curved screen and would show 70mm movies. I used to go and everyone was in awe of the screen I was in awe of the sound! It was big horn maybe Western Electric or Altec? They used to power the whole theater with a few watts. Mostly Western Electric 300b's is my guess. It was dead quiet.
The amp builder has the big Altec's and that is not what I remember from the theater I think it was Western Electric. |
New tubes today for the vintage loaded with Duelund amp.
Worn out tubes and Duelund caps do not sound better than good tubes and vintage caps not by a long shot.
In this testing I kept what was the best sounding amp stock as a reference point. I have modded the lesser sounding amps and now want to hear what a rectifier tube does |
Volleyguy1, one of these days maybe you will be able to listen in stereo with both channels matched. I highly recommend it! |
Too funny Saletric!
Just one amp and just one cap different. |
|
Hi all
Everything has been installed in my Coincident Total Eclipses and I'm at around the 12 hour point of run in.
Initial impressions are of much more detail and bigger soundstage. Treble is more pronounced than it should be and sometimes too aggressive. Much stronger placement of instruments in 3D space. Players and instruments have moved from where I've heard in the past.
Listening to Joni Mitchell is a dream at the moment. I know I shouldn't be paying attention to what I'm listening to until the 100 hour mark but I'm just so keen to get into these.
Given that I've upgraded from solen caps and sand resistors to Duelund & Jantzen Audio - I have to say there is already an immediate benefit. My speakers/system sounds "more expensive". Can hardly believe where this is heading to. Really optimistic.
100 hours plus, here I come!!
Thanks all, Tas |
Audiolabyrinth
In my opinion 30% that Grannyring has stated could be shy of what you get. Of couse % are very hard to calculate and I doubt he wants to overstate.
My feeling is it varies from part to part and you can get good info in here where to start.
Tweeter caps for me enormous. Maybe 30% just for them...
Woofer inductor was shocking as well but is more costly but maybe as large.
If given a choice I would for sure go crossover first. This was Steen Duelund's thoughts as well. His thought was 50% of your system in speakers 50% of the speaker $ in the crossover. |
|
The amp will be sitting for a week (holidays) the cap is going back.
I might take a ribbing here but I knew something was wrong within just a few hours. Took the amp for a check up to the amp builder and when plate came off oil leaking out of the CAST cap... (to my surprise I was thinking tubes)
The cap had not leaked much at that point. Bought some new tubes to see if that was it sound problems. Hooked back up sounded better but within a hour or two started to get worse again and there was a little oil under the amp. (leaking faster)
I have say I shocked myself how quickly I could hear something going wrong.
Too much listening to caps! When the Jensen Electrolytic went in power supply before I could hear it right away.
What does a cap sound like going bad? As the oil goes out the sound gets drier, edgy.
To people who do not think you can hear caps that's crazy. I could hear how much oil was leaking out! |
Hi Tas,
Congratulations on the successful modification of your speakers. The Duelund upgrade takes the Total Eclipse from the "very good" to the level of superb in my opinion. Just settle back and enjoy your music, it will steadily improve. In hindsight I realized the sound improvement continued for several hundred hours.The CAST were just a terrific decision for me and utterly worth every red cent I payed for them . Surely they are one of High End audio's esteemed products for those of us who highly value natural sound.
Charles, |
Volleyguy1
I simply could not fit a Duelund CAST cap into my mid/treble enclosure (at least based on the measurements I was given) so I opted for VSF Black cap and CAST resistors. All the remaining caps are Jantzen Audio Superior Z Caps. I thoroughly agree with you Volleyguy1, 30% (as a number) just doesn't tell the whole story with what I'm listening to right now. At 24 hours burn in I'm listening to soundscapes that are bordering on the awesome and sublime. Complex images and tones. My speakers are not at all what they once were.
Charles1dad - Thank you! I've read everything you have said in this blog. I understood what you wrote and believed your experiences but I still wasn't prepared for what I've heard so far. I thought that what would happen would be that my sound would be more articulate and real - this is more - it is far more detailed as well. I would've been satisfied with what I have as a final result but, at 24 hours?!?! I'm open mouthed.
I need to stress though, my upgrade included new Neotech internal wiring (which you already had Charles) and new Eichman-ETI speaker terminals to replace the large/fat brass terminals I had before. I think that these must have contributed to my gains here.
The truth is folks, I would never have imagined that this kind of money would produce this amount of gain. Older Coincident speakers like mine were made with great cabinets and good drivers, they just needed to be brought up to 2014 standards in their crossovers. In case anyone wants any advice, go buy a second hand pair of Coincidents - Total Eclipse or better - and upgrade them the way that's been suggested in this forum. A bargain in audio, no doubt about it. I have heard $30,000 speakers and, until my upgrade is fully run in, I'll reserve judgement, but, I repeat, I never expected this kind of jump in performance.
If we'd all lived in the same town, I'd be throwing a party for all of you to say thanks! In the meantime, thank you everyone.
Tas |
Tas, you are right! It seems almost all speaker builders cheap out on the crossover parts. Even speakers that retail for $20,000 or more! Folks spend lots of money ugrading gear, tubes, wire when upgrading crossover parts often times does more good than all the rest.
In terms of 30%, goodness that is an impossible number to come at in realality as we all perceive and judge this sort of thing with our own subjective scale... Bottom line is this, does your system sound more like music in an apprecable manner. If so...success! |
Hi Tas,
Well your conclusions about the Coincident speakers match mine. Very good cabinet construction, excellent quality drivers and pretty simple signal path. Address the crossover with premium parts and you'll have an exceptionally sounding speaker (natural rather than artificial Hifi). I'm very happy that you achieved such a pleasing outcome.
For the initial money spent on the superior parts the end result is actually quite a remarkable value. You can use any top quality source or preamp/ amplifier and your speakers won't be outclassed, they'll easily keep up!
I agree with, this long thread (thanks Volleyguy) has been informative, friendly and fun.
Charles, |
Hi Bill (Grannyring),
As usual you raise many good points with your insight.Based on my experience I really can't understand why builders of expensive speakers don't use bette Xover parts.I sincerely respect their talents and efforts but many(not all) seem to cheap out on the Xover portion of the speaker.Or they design a complex multiple part Xover with poorer quality caps, wire and resistors. It seems to me that fewer parts (simple design) but placing emphasis on the quality would be a better option.
To Coincident's credit their Xovers are very simple and direct. The standard speaker is very good sounding. Yank out the Solens capacitor and insert Duelund and it's a "Wow what happened" experience.This would probably be true for the vast majority of speakers. Speakers with complex-multi capacitors can become expensive to change if you decide to go the Duelund route . fortunately there are other less costly alternatives that would still be a worthwhile upgrade from the stock parts.
I never would have thought that the Xover could be so crucial to the overall sound. Another example of "everything matters".
Charles, |
It seems the crucial part of audio is the xover and power supplies in all other components. Ok everyone get your soldering irons out. |
Thankyou volleyguy1 for your input, a very good explanation, and reading all that has been said recently was a great learning exsperience for me, citing that alot of well regarded exspensive speakers have poor implimented cross-overs was a revelation!, I do want all of you here to know, I am formost a believer most High-end speakers are way over priced period, I have wittnessed many times over a $2,000.00 to $5,000.00 speaker completly out perform $20,000.00 to much more exspensive speakers, there always seemed to be something missing in the sound to the more exspensive speakers, A higher cost to me does not always mean better when it comes to speakers, really, there are alot more speaker makers than anything made in audio, so there are more choices world-wide, thus, I believe why I was able to hear cheaper speakers out-perform the exspensive ones, so gentlemen, what all of you are stateing here is spot on with me, and what I enjoy, you are saying, you can take a very,very, good $2,000.00 speaker from 1992 and kick the crap out of most out there with all the cap up-grades for speakers mentioned in the last few post?, I was very supprised with the modest percentage ratio!, there is componets that do not do that,LOL!, what a learning exsperience here, cheers to all of you gentleman, By all means, carry on. |
Jwm - Big Amen to that. Both the power supply statement and get out your solder guns! |
Audiolabyrinth,
I wouldn't extrapolate to the extent that you have done.The main point is with many speakers the Xover is a soft spot and is ripe for considerable improvement. The speaker should be very good and appeal to your ears in its stock form.I wouldn't suggest that you can take any old speaker and transform the sound merely by upgrading the capacitors. Other important aspects of the speaker must be of quality also.
Charles, |
Charles is right. We are saying the designs are very good. In many cases the drivers and cab are also high quality. But often times they use low cost resistors, caps, and inductors thinking they don't make much of a difference or whatever the reason. I say don't skimp on crossover parts when selling a $12,000 plus speaker! Go ahead and use a $10 resistor instead of a $ .50 cent one. Go ahead and use a $200 cap instead of a $5 one..... |
