Absolutely Charles and Grannyring a speaker should sound great with the parts the manufacture supplies. I doubt very much that you would find any component that you thought was just ok transform into something fabulous with just better part changes. |
Hey Grannyring
I have some vienna accoustic mozart grands which I believe you have also. One thing I think they are noted for is a little richer presentation. Could you tell me with your experience replacing xover caps and resistors in other speakers, and your familiarity with the mozarts, do you think this is easily an upgrade replacing the caps and resistors or a little risky because of the house sound of the mozarts? Thanks a lot for your input. |
I am very glad this very long thread has worked out so well for so many of us...
The actual cause of the start of this thread was when I installed a full new crossover into my speakers on one side with Sonicaps vs. the vintage foil caps. Like most people I think I wanted to believe that my work (time) and money was making things better. The new caps with all this progress (of 30 years) were much smaller. I had my wife come down almost grudgingly to listen. I wanted a blind test listener. She listened blind to the 30 year old crossover and the brand new one. She went WOW that one is clearly way better! She said that one just sounds sooooo much better and real you must be really happy?
The problem was and I did not tell her (she was really impressed) she was picking the vintage foil in oil caps!!! That caused the start of this thread as I went this is not just bolt in new parts sound better. The thread started as just a sharing of thoughts.
I was under the impression all new caps better than all old ones? So I said I have to go up the quality scale and get some Mundorf Supreme's (which were better) and Duelund was the same style as the vintage but much better!
Oddly enough for someone reading this thread VSF was not chosen as a snooty exotic cap it was the only one that was better in all ways to the vintage caps. In fact the VSF might fit the bill of being 10-30% better in the midrange (not super huge) the tweeter caps were a 100% better!
I was impressed and shocked (by all of this) and started to read all of Steen Duelund's writing that I could and that I could understand.
Then I tried the CAST tweeter caps putting one speaker against another a VSF vs. CAST comparison. I was ready to really put my ears on to see if I could hear a difference. I literally thought I wired something up wrong going to the CAST tweeter speaker putting my ear to it to see if it was still working! To my shock there was just sooooo much less noise. People had told me (including Frederick) that of course the difference was not going to be like vintage to VSF but it was at least as big to my shock!
Now let us all be speaker manufactures for awhile. The common number I hear is $12k in the speakers allows for $2k in manufacturing costs? We are a very small market caring about sound quality rather than appearance. Steen talked about this in some of his papers on why there had been so little progress on sound quality yet stunning finishes on new speakers but this is for the eyes not the ears.
Thanks for all the nice comments about this thread but we really all owe a lot to Steen (now Frederik) for making these improvements and it goes to show the money must be in sexy speakers...
Now for the second blind test.
I took the amp in knowing not guessing something was wrong with the sound but not knowing what is was? In seeing the leaking CAST I went wow it had not been leaking that long either.
The amp builder (who is an absolute great guy!) said "that is why I do not like these exotic caps". He meant it like it was all a farce, waste of money or maybe that he has not had failures in his machine made caps? I have talked about having him over to hear the speakers but am worried...
I already know it sounds better than any amp I have heard in his store for repair and he has had some good ones!
His comment guys are exactly why we do not have high end parts in many speakers or amps. He has a vested financial interest in NOT thinking expensive caps sound better... (or heaven forbid if they were not as reliable)
To me I can deal with wiring in another cap I have only had one go bad but I can not handle crappy sound from a cap that lasts forever... |
Hi Marqmike,
My wife's system has the Mozart original speakers, not the newer Grands. But we love them! She won't let me touch her system with a soldering iron! She said leave it alone and I have obeyed.
One thing I did do based on a past Stereophile review was reverse the polarity on the tweeter which was mis-wired. I say mis-wired as both Stereophile and I noted the vast improvement with the wires reversed. The speaker opened up a ton and sounds fantastic with this done. My wife even agreed :-)
I am not sure the Grand has the same issue....I doubt it. |
Tas
This is fantastic and please keep us updated on the VSF Blacks. There has been much CAST talk but in my tweeter it is CAST followed by VSF on purpose. I have always wanted try the Blacks they say in the middle. I think they were made for Merlin? I would not hesitate to buy them for a second! |
I'd never heard of Duelund until Grannyring began a thread about them roughly 2 years ago and this stirred my curiosity. Very soon afterwards I came across this thread and Volleyguy's postings simply hooked me in. Yes his single speaker comparison method was unusual but I completely understood his impressions and descriptive points. I loved my speaker's sound and had no real interest in buying something different(though always curious about PHY driver speakers and Horning). I thought, try the CAST and if I don't like it, remove them and stick with the stock Solen capacitor. The Solens cap will never see the interior of these speakers again. It wasn't a case of going from bad to good, it was instead, quite good to sublime. To his credit, Israel Blume got really good sound from an average capacitor.
Charles, |
Thanks Grannyring. I think I will stay put. It is tempting to change stuff because it is so easy. But I hate breakin on things. And I don't want to go in the wrong direction. I appreciate the input a lot. Thanks again |
Charles
In doing the testing one part change at a time was done to avoid trying to do sound tests by memory which I thought could lead to the brain saying it is better because I spent $$$ on it.
Cost was another factor when I first bought Duelund parts one part seemed like enough money. If it did nothing and before this blog there was no body of people saying the same thing and to be honest my first CAST purchase i thought i might be nuts! All that money on a capacitor!! After a while I started buying in pairs installing one at a time. (when I knew kind of what to expect)
In amplifier tests cap tests I have done three vintage amps all same brand keeping the best sounding one all stock as a reference to go back too. Again to see is this real progress? It is the one I am currently using (now with cap problem) and it is still very good! It might be even better (with the vintage Vishay ERO caps) at realism in voices than the Duelund caps? If it is an acoustic recording maybe better? Vintage lacks dynamics though.
It has been said on here before the CAST are awesome but might lack a bit of air?
Tas might have the best caps? Has anyone compared the VSF Black to CAST? I have not only CAST to VSF.
What has shocked me as well is just like Tas's initial impression of his mods were very good how many times initial impressions stick... |
The speakers I was talking about that were made from 1992 for three years are one of the best speakers I have EVER heard at any price are make of speakers, no, they are no where the best, if there is a such a thing, they are 30hz to 27khz and cross over at 900 hz everything stock, They are the vintage 4-way bi-amp JBL L-7 speakers, I have looked inside them before, they have these huge caps and it looks like a big wound transfomer?, These speakers are three foot from the wall behind the speakers, and 3 foot from the side walls of each side of the speakers, nearly 7ft apart, and 5 degrees toe in, this took me three months of heart ache to position, inside fireing 12 inch woofers speakers are odd to set up in a room, However, I can tell you, I am quite happy with the out come, the deepest, tallest, widest sound stage, with uncanny bass slam, natural, non fatiging speakers, with precise tonal balance I have owned or listened to in many years, I have nearly listened to all the big names in speakers, $80,000.00 speakers-wilson grand slams to Avalons etc..., The biggest tweeks I have done so far to these speakers is the addition of the Tara labs Omega jumper cables for the four post on each speaker, and still points footers for getting the cabinet to be more inert, I do not ever want a speaker cabinet to be over built, LOL!, the speakers cannot breath the music thru out properly to me, I have listened, to speakers that was all about the cabinets strengths, sounded like crap to me!, this may amuse you fellows here, However, I am very happy with these speakers, and in the end, that's what counts, I want to learn from all of you, I cannot imagine these speakers getting any better, I believe all of you,I know you guys know what you are talking about, and when it comes to the caps for speakers and everything else all of you are talking about on this thread, well then, I am just a newbie to this subject, I have no exsperience in, and have never done these up-grades in my life, so I am all ears here!, cheers. |
Hi again everyone
I'm at around the 100 hour mark and I have to say, I thoroughly agree with Grannyring - DON'T listen to your speakers while the burn in process is below 100 hours!! There were times that I thought they sounded so wrong that I began to wonder about my decision to upgrade. Only momentarily mind you. I know enough from you folks to understand changes that were happening.
At the moment I believe I have an amazing sound but I believe the high frequencies can still be aggressive or too loud at times - depending on source material. I have a hunch I'm a few hours yet from full burn in. Interested to hear you say that you found that as well Charles.
Something I can say without doubt now is just how much more information these speakers are allowing through than before the upgrade. For instance, I don't believe I've ever been made to pay attention to the warmth/readiness my digital source before now. I used to just turn it on (from standby) and listen. Not now - I simply cannot listen to it for at least 30 minutes. It just sounds so wrong before that stage. I can really hear any limitations of my digital source. I will definitely be investigating some upgrades for my player as well. I keep wondering what effect a CAST cap or two will have with that....actually, why not Jupiter!!
It may be a good time to ask this question, I have a Meridian 800 version 4 as my digital source. I've upgraded the power supply to linear with excellent results. Could anyone here recommend an approach to determining which capacitors I might look at changing over in this unit to improve its analogue output? There is a group in my city called Soundlabs who do this kind of thing but I'd rather do it myself if possible.
Tas |
My Duelund CAST resistors just arrived today so I will be able to compare the CAST to the regular Duelund resistors I have been using the last year or two. I will post some details after I am sure the new resistors are fully broken in.
I also have another pair of CAST capacitors on order so I will have CAST caps on the woofer as well as the tweeter. |
Grannyring,
Did you receive my PM? |
Roxy54
Yes responded twice? |
Hi Tas,
Perhaps it's the different systems we have but I didn't experience the occasionally aggressive treble you mentioned. Immediately apparent was an increased resolution and detail/information retrieval. However the innate natural character improved! More resolution yet the organic quotient elevated simultaneously. That's special in my book. Tas you are well on your way.
Charles, |
Tas,
The Jupiter capacitors seem to be an ideal candidate for your DAC based on Grannyring's ringing endorsement. The CAST in my DAC has been a spectacular sucess (1uf output coupling position). If either of these two caps fit into your DAC I'd go for it. You'll have premium capacitors to begin the signal path and again exiting at the speaker.
Charles, |
Charles,
thanks for the reply! Output coupling position? Ok. Did you require one cap per channel or is that a single capacitor? That sounds like a marvellous next step for me. My analogue output is built on a card in slot arrangement (like a pc) and there is plenty of room. A CAST cap (or two) won't be a problem especially if it's something low level like 1uf. I have a reasonable feeling that this will go a long way to taming my "aggressive" treble which I believe is coming from my DAC.
Many thanks! Tas |
Tas, put the Jupiter copper in your dac based on your comments thus far. The total balance of your system will please you greatly with these in your dac. |
Bill
Jupiter copper instead of Duelund CAST? Love hearing this kind of advice - thanks!!! Specific and to the point.
Thanks Bill |
Tas,
The capacitors are 1 per channel (so just 1 pair is needed). If you click my system page and then click my Yamamoto DAC you'll see a picture of the installed CAST. If Grannyring believes the Jupiter is equal to the CAST that's very good news and saves you money. I'm not familiar with your DAC but surely superior output capacitors can't hurt.
Here's my perspective, The 1 pair of Duelund CAST cost me 459.00. You could easily spend 2-3x that (or more) for a pair of quality interconnect cables and not get the same improvement rendered from the CAST capacitors. For me the CAST represented a substantially high value/reward result.
Charles, |
Bill, Charles,
thank you very much. I've contacted a technician (does mods locally) who I will get to identify the values of my output coupling caps and my next step will be to order the Jupiter Copper caps from Parts Connexion. This last step will be a sublime pleasure. I'm so close to total and absolute satisfaction I can taste it.
The speakers are wonderful, really wonderful. I'm still running them in and they're now better each time I listen to them. Purer, bigger, more lifelike - love them. |
Tas,
Your description of the speakers is precisely what I hear, "purer, bigger, more lifelike". Crossover capacitor quality does matter, significantly.
Charles, |
I also picked up a few Jupiters and burned them in for about 50 hours before installing. I used a .1uF in my speaker crossover as a bypass to the in series caps, a 1.0uF in my phono stage as the coupling cap, and a .01uF as a bypass to a V-Cap OIMP in my preamp output coupling cap.
After the 50 hour burn in and installation things sounded very well balanced, but flat. Another 10 hours made them open up, where I got the top end extension back. Another 10 hours and later Sunday night I heard the dimensionality return. They now sound very nice indeed. Well balanced, extended, airy and without any hint of hardness or sibilence.
I bet there is a bit more burn in to go, but they are sounding very sweet indeed right now. Plenty of air, nice texture, good dynamics, balanced top to bottom, extended without glare or forwardness, great image/soundstaging, a "real" palpability to instruments. Just hugely musical.
Took about 70 hours of break in, which is definitely on the light side for premium caps. We will see if there is more to come as time goes by. |
@ Ptmconsulting, The fact you said that the jupiter caps did not sound forward got my attention more than eany thing else!, I hate forward sounding equipment and cables, does not sound real, alot of people do not realize they are hearing this, they believe it must be better because of the in your face perspective, magnified, so to speak of, I enjoyed your post and others posting here, I know I am reading seasoned audiophile's post, they know a forward presatation is not realistic, and at the end of the day, two dimensional. |
The Jupiter caps are not forward sounding or forced in the least. I have used them as output caps and coupling caps in my gear and they are very special.
More pleased with these in terms of musicality than any other cap I have tried, and I have tried lots :-) |
I have to update all on these Jupiter copper foil caps after over 100 hours of break-in. They keep getting better and better.
They are so darn real sounding. The micro details of human voice and instrument is astounding. Couple this with the sense of heft, weight and body they have and no cap is it's equal.....no cap.
They have an uncanny sense of depth and while I have said this before, the unforced naturalness is such a welcomed musical reality. Smoothness is state of the art without a doubt. Ya, I am worked up over these music making parts. Placed in critical positions, they will make you smile and pay attention to the music.....
Do not judge these until you get at least 100 hours. If they continue to get better, my wife will need to sedate me!
Note....these are the smaller value caps for electronics. They are used in my Thor TPA30 tube amps....4 in each amp as part of the signal path. Four in my Aesthetix Romulus CD player. |
Tas,
The Jupiter copper foil capacitor appears to be an excellent choice for your DAC.If they do for you what the Duelund CAST did in my DAC, you're in for a major treat{for less money than I happily spent}.Not a bad way to go.
Charles, |
Hi all
I spent some time talking to a technician about my output coupling capacitors in my digital source ( Meridian 800 DVD/CD player ) and I now know they are Nichicon 470uf/16Volt types - electrolytic. Those values mean that - as far as I know - Duelund and Jupiter (PIO) caps are completely out of the question. Needless to say I am really disappointed.
After being bowled over by the difference in before/after with my speakers I was very eager to do the same in my dac. Folks - this process of improvement is unbelievably addictive!! lol
A question to the thread members - can anyone please suggest any options for capacitors to substitute into the positions I have here?
I look forward to hearing from you and thanks very much in advance!
Tas |
@ Grannyring, You mind me asking, what was the cost for the Jupiter foil caps for your Romulas player?, who are the Jupter copper foil caps made by, and where do I get them?, you said that jupiter only makes a cap value of 1uf? |
Gentleman, I am not tring to get off subject here, However, I believe it is best to ask my questions here instead of the digital threads, we are talking caps, parts etc... on this thread, I just bought a brand NEW cd-player, I use to own the same player in 2012, this time the unit only came with RCa out-puts, I talked to Ralph of Atmas-phere, and he can and is willing to put balanced connections on the player for me, I live in Mobile,Alabama, St.Paul, MINN is very far away and the turn around time likly would be to long for an hour job at most!, where and who that is reputible that I can call on the phone that is closer to me and can do a quality job of putting Balanced connections on my payer for me, Ralph quoted $150.00 which is a good price, I just do not want to get my player tied up for over 3 weeks max to do a simple job that I am asking, Thankyou Guys in advance. |
TAS, If the Nichicon 47uf caps are really the output caps, you will probably be able to replace them with a much smaller value. I can't say that for certain without looking at a schematic but I suspect you could replace them with a cap in the .47 to 1.0uf range. The mfr most likely used the big Nichicon because it gave a whole lot of capacitance for a small investment in size as well as cost. Unless your preamp input impedance is very low (less than 50k) or the DAC has a low value loading resistor on the output, a small film cap should probably work fine. |
Salectric
You have my absolute attention! Just before I go on, the Nichicon caps are 470uf NOT 47uf. Does that affect your thoughts here?
They are small (in size) physically......not that that's relevant, I guess.
In lieu of the 470 uf rating, would you say your advice would still apply?
Very excited here
Tas |
Tas, sorry for the confusion on the cap value. Too early in the morning! My comments on replacing the electrolytic with a small value film cap still apply, but the 470 µF value increases my suspicion that this is really a power supply filter rather than an output coupler.
One final comment. Just because a particular part like a Duelund capacitor has nearly unanimous praise does not mean that it will be an overall improvement in a particular application. For example, many years ago I made the mistake of buying a Threshold FET 10E phono stage based on reviewer recommendations. It turned out it had a large nonpolar electrolytic capacitor on the output so I figured I could improve the sound by replacing the electrolytic with a film capacitor. I tried a number of popular capacitors for that day, all of which made significant changes in the sound but overall I kept returning to the cheap electrolytic as the best sound for that particular preamp. It is quite possible you will find that the 470 µF electrolytic used by the manufacturer has some qualities that you sacrifice with a replacement film capacitor. I'm not saying that to discourage you but you need to go into this with your eyes open. |
I find it difficult to understand the use of such a high capacitance electrolytic as a DAC's output "coupling" capacitor. On the surface it doesn't make sense ( most are .47uf-1.0uf). 470uf???
Salectric as usual you offer good perspective and advice. It's true, you won't no the result of a modification until you actually hear it.
I'd find it hard to believe that a premium PIO capacitor wouldn't be an improvement over a large value electrolytic as a coupling cap.
Charles, |
Salectric is right. If you are certain you have the right position and they are not power supply caps, then replace them. If they are output caps, then no need for that value and a 1 uf will be fine.
I replaced the 100uf output caps in my Sony NS 900 CD player with .47uf Duelund CAST two years ago and the improvement was astouding!
Salectric explained it well. Just be sure those are the right caps to replace. Wether 47uf, 100uf or 470uf, if they are output caps, then 1 uf will work great. Most inexpensive, mass market, CD players use these very large value electrolytic caps as output caps as an FYI. |
One other thing to consider. Replacing caps on a circuit board is more work. It can be a lot more work if space is tight, the board is cheap, the board has to be removed, there are small resistors in close proximity.........
It can be tricky and ask yourself if you are up to the task. If you over heat the board you will lift a pad or trace easily. You ould damage the unit so much that you need a new board or more likely.........trash the unit depending on age.
Are you up to the task? Practice on a $30 player/board many times desoldering parts and replacing. You also need a good soldering station. |
This is starting to make sense, inexpensive mass market CD players using very large value but poor quality capacitors. Certainty this partially explains the typically crappy sound heard from these types of players. I'd be genuinely shocked if a Duelund or Jupiter capacitor doesn't provide a significant improvement in the sound quality.
Charles, |
Hmmm - some thought provoking information coming out. I knew you wouldn't let me down!
Salectric - power supply filter? I really think you may be right. I believe the Nichicon 470µF caps are NOT the coupling caps.
This player - Meridian 800 VAX V4 - is designed like a PC ie many modular parts all connecting into a motherboard. I have two analogue output cards - one just for my main speakers(left/right) and the other for the surround speakers & subwoofer.
There should be one coupling cap per channel - there are two nichicons 470µF caps on each of the analogue cards. Earlier today I could have sworn there were two on the stereo and three on the surround. I was wrong and I mislead my technician by giving him the information that I had three on the surround card.
Ok - now I have to apologise. I incorrectly observed the facts. Sorry folks.
I think it's time I had this unit on a bench in front of this technician and he made a firm assessment. At this early stage I can say that there are two 100µF caps on the stereo card and three 100µF caps in the same position of the surround card (perhaps indicating they are the output coupling caps?!) but I won't swear to anything being anything until I get some expert advice my end. Sorry again folks!
Grannyring - if I have any doubts about my attempt on this I'll just get this audio technician to do the cap installation. My unit is hand built and not too hard to work on. I am confident with my soldering but the trick with this install will be packing the caps neatly amongst all the hardware. I don't think it's too hard for me but you are 100% correct. I'll take no chances.
I should be able to get this player in front of my technician next Tuesday to determine where things are. I'll keep you guys posted.
Charles - my player (which cost someone, somewhere, around $40,000 retail in Australia new), in its day (around 8 years ago), was reputedly the best DVD and DVD-Audio player in the world. Which is definitely not to say Meridian didn't take short cuts. I only just replaced the switch mode power supply in it with a linear one a few months ago with great results! It does amaze me where a manufacturer will try and save money.
In the case of my output coupling caps, I am thinking that my unit will be old enough that the caps we have all been talking about simply didn't exist when this unit was designed/built and that that's the main reason they will make an improvement now. However, Salectric, I've heard and respect everything you say. Thank you.
You guys are an incredible. Thank you for being out there. One of these days, we should try and organise a "convention" or meet up. I'd love to listen to music and eat and drink for an unreasonable amount of time! lol
Take care, Tas |
Don't overlook the possibility that the DAC may have a direct-coupled output in which case you don't need any output caps. You really need a tech to look over the unit to make sure what part is doing what before you start replacing things. On an expensive unit like that, you want to be especially careful that you don't damage the circuit board. |
Salectric
I hear you. Thanks!
I am pretty sure - via anecdotal evidence - that this unit does have output coupling caps. I know of similar players that have had them changed.
I'm booked in with a technician (audio modification is his specialty) next Thursday.
Thanks again. Invaluable.
Tas |
Some interesting information is coming out on the very good Duelund CAST caps. I have seen pictures of one cut in half and it is pretty interesting what is inside. They contain lots of a plastic type substance and no paper or oil. Ya, you are reading this correctly.
This certainly takes nothing away from their good sound, but I had always thought they were paper in oil types? I think all the independent reviews list this cap as PIO and it is not apparently.
The new Jupiter caps are indeed PIO with copper foil. They continue to sound better past 100 hours and for electronics they are very special indeed. Love to hear some in my speakers once those values are out! |
The Jupiter copper caps are paper and wax....no oil. |
Yes, you are correct. Wax instead on oil............ |
The Duelund CAST may contain some oil but it would not impregnate the Mylar type substance inside the cap. Some suggest the little that is there may be to preserve the copper? |
Correction " the little oil that MAY be there". Looks to be none. |
I don`t know why Duelund would be misleading about the construction of their capacitors(if they indeed are] I haven`t cut one open. I can only account for what I hear and I love what they`ve done in my individual case.Volleyguy had one CAST capacitor that leaked. What was it leaking?
Charles, |
I am not sure Duelund claims or ever claimed paper and no plastic, but many of us assumed that as did reviewers.
They may have some oil, but certainly not impregnated in the plastic stuff.
None of this takes away from the sound, but I do find it interesting. I am Into the story of products and how they are built and designed. |
A quick search shows that most, including Parts Connextion, lists them as PIO caps. However, Jimmy's Junkyard capacitor thread lists them as Mylar. |
Grannyring does this mean that the Dueland is closer to a teflon cap. |
The more I think about this I'm inclined to believe the Duelund CAST is what its makers say it is . Personally I don't know of a Teflon capacitor that sounds like the Duelund. So if it is "plastic", how did they get it to be superbly organic and natural in character? The internal construction could be oat bran and toilet paper. Bottom line is they sound superb and serve as a supreme benchmark for other audio capacitors.
Charles, |
The internal structure is most likely Mylar and certainly not organic as an FYI. |
