Hey Granny!!
Glad you piped up. You are so responsible for my interest in the Dude.
Tell me, what adjustments/changes have you made to your Dude since buying it? Have you placed CAST or Jupiter components in it?
I'm using a PASS LABS X1 pre and have to wonder what my options are with cap upgrades |
TAS: Positioning and Support would be where each component is in the external crossover board, how far away the inductors are from each other and their orientation, how the components are fixed in the board, the rigidity of the board (did not change) and the support of the board (cones, Stillpoints, etc). The big 56uF cap (for the midrange circuit) was previously outside of the board (directly in the floor...) and on its side, now it is facing up and in the board. I don't know the effect of each change, but all the changes added up to a nice improvement.
Grannyring: Thank you. I will keep posting the changes.
Cheers, VPN |
BTW, I am back to using just the passive crossover, took out the bi-amplification. It is sounding better now. Sometime from now I will measure again and try again to get a better result from bi-amping (I will keep the second pair of amps and the Pass XVR-1 there waiting...).
Any suggestions for a better 220uF capacitor than Solen? It is used in the secondary (parallel) circuit of the 15" XO portion. Duelund CAST or Duelund RS is not an option given how much it would cost for 220uF, being in a secondary portion of the circuit. |
Tas
I have Duelund CAST caps in my Dude as well as upgraded signal wire, resistors and extra power supply capacitance. I have the Jupiter Copper foil caps coming Wednesday and will put them in the Dude. I like them better as they are just more musical based on my experience in electronics only thus far. More even handed top to bottom with equal resolution and superior micro details and bass.
I also plan to put them in my speakers once the speaker values are out. |
Bill
That's very interesting. Sounds as though you've been very thorough in your revision of the Dude components. Tell me, if you were to buy a new Dude preamp now, would the preamp builder include the parts mods that you've performed while they're assembling the preamp? I only ask because it appears that TRL are very good at recognising improvements suggested by their customers.
Can I ask you what brand/type fuses & wire you've used in your upgrades please?
Very interesting to observe the level of performance tuning that some of you are performing. Inspiring really
Cheers, Tas |
Hi Tas, Paul the builder/owner at TRL is the one who has helped me with any improvements. He uses Duelund and now Jupiter copper foil caps, will build a Dude with increased capacitance, one or two volumes, with 2 or 4 6sn7 tubes, and on and on.
He suggested resistor types and what they sound like. I did change the signal wire, but that is just my own need to tweak and play as the solid core copper he uses is just fine. I just have to play with my soldering iron :)
Fuses? Never as they hurt the sound. Paul designs his gear without them and his gear is absolutely stable and bullet proof. I won't go into the details, but he uses other methods and avoids fuses altogether.
Paul is expert at what a music system should sound like due to his vast recording experience and always shoots for live and alive sounding gear. He designs in a way that assures his gear will not hold back or do harm to the intended musical experience. With TRL gear you get it all in terms of the energy, detail, scale and impact. |
I have the amp with all the Duelund caps in bak with a CAST I had here replacing the leaky one.
Waiting to get the replacement from Duelund.
At first amp sounded off but I had the tech guy check things over. New cap, new Genalex rectifier tube, new Genalex power tubes.
Sounding better now.
Grannyring
You know I am going to test these Jupiter caps that is some big claims on them you have made. |
Grannyring
Looking forward to hearing Jupiter caps in small values. Duelund does not give the discount on small value CAST anymore.
My vintage parts are wax paper and there for sure is some merit to it. Wax is really good in resonance reduction. The downside is maybe a slowing of high freq.. |
Volleyguy, I just checked the PCX website and it looks like their "special" pricing for certain CAST values has now become their regular prices. The prices all appear the same to me. Now the prices for the CAST speaker caps are another story. They seem to be going up every couple of months. I am glad I ordered mine when I did. The final set for finishing my crossover are due later this month. |
Question folks. What inductor brand is great sounding after Duelund. I cannot afford Duelund and wonder what brand is next. Mundorf?
Need a .33mf and 1.6mf.
Thanks |
Sorry for the typo, I meant .33 mH and 1.6 mH |
Granny, I am in the same position as you: I would like to try some CAST inductors but I don't dare since I can't justify the cost. Instead, I went with North Creek air core inductors---a 10g on the woofer and 12g on the compression driver. I have tried about a half dozen different types of crossover chokes and the North Creeks are the best sounding by far. They aren't cheap but I consider them very good value. Of course, CAST coils could leave them in the dust for all I know, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
The North Creeks are all wound to order so you can get any value you want. The website also has a lot of good information about different types of crossover chokes. |
Salectric
I ordered some and thanks for the post. I was leaning towards them and your post helped. |
Grannyring, I think you will be very happy with the North Creek chokes. Among the others I tried are several other brands of air cores, several Jantzen ferrite cores, vintage Altec iron core, and several copper foils. I had complaints about each of them but not the North Creeks.
The North Creeks don't take long to break in either. I didn't notice any real changes after the first few hours. |
Now I just need the new Jupiter copper caps in the larger crossover values! |
In the past I used 8 and 10 gauge inductors for bass and foils for upper mids and highs. My self and friend thought the round wire sounded best on the low end and the flat for the highs. We tried this on SC4's. The inductors were North Creek and Solo foils. For my current rebuild speaker project we wound our own from the same stock as above. When they are completed one day I will tell you how it all worked out. Tom |
Hello,
Let me post my question again. The only non-Duelund capacitor left in my crossovers are a two 220uF Solen (one in each). Any option better sounding than Solen for this very high capacitance? Duelund CAST and RS are out of question given price. This is for a secondary circuit, in parallel to the 15" woofers.
Thanks for your suggestions. |
Vicente,
I would look at the ESA caps from Clarity Cap. http://www.claritycap.co.uk/products/esa.php
I see these as a great value and are used by several high perception electronic manufacturers.
I am sure you are going outboard with the crossover and if so you could parallel 8 27 uf caps to come really close to the value you need. If you purchased a total of 16 you could value match the sets left and right and probably hit very close to the desired 220uf value of the single Solen.
The ESA 27uf's are available in both 250 and 630 volt films.
I would not bypass these caps. I would keep all the values and characteristics of the caps the same. I made this mistake years ago with my Dunlavy re-build by mixing in some bypass caps to match values. I think I was hearing the small values and not the whole. Tom |
Theaudiotweak,
Thanks, good idea. The Capacitor Shootout give a 8.5 rating to them, vs. a 6+ rating for the Solem. I have to check how much area 8x27uf would take or (10x22uf). I hoped there was a 220uf single capacitor solution for the upgrade.
Cheers,
VPN |
Grannyring
Too bad wrong size on the North Creek. I have a 2.5mh North Creek but did go to Duelund VSF. I wish I had even went to CAST. (one of the only regrets)
Treat inductors as every bit as important as caps if not more. Just shocking how much noise. (and VSF I would not expect to be at CAST level)
In my testing it was Duelund VSF, vintage wax paper then North Creek. North Creek might be one of the best out there not sure?
Inductors are the vastly underrated part and not understood. It is the high freq noise that gets cut... I was not expecting it. There is a lot on this thread with others who found it the same.
Of course money is always an object.
The point of this thread was improvement for the $ and Duelund inductors are right up there! |
I have a question for the group.
Background: A friend just acquired a pair of Silverline SR17 Supreme monitors. The crossover is first order and uses a Dynaudio T330D Esotar tweeter. The plan is to take the crossover outboard, replacing the tweeter capacitor with a Duelund CAST-Cu. When I looked in the speaker I was surprised to find on the tweeter circuit a 3.3uF Solen with a 0.22uF WIMA bypass cap, the parallel arrangement giving an equivalent capacitance of 3.52uF. I've never encountered this arrangement in a Silverline before. I also found a picture on the internet (supposedly) of a stock SR17 Supreme crossover and it only had a single capacitor on the tweeter circuit, which is what I would have expected. I could not read the value of the capacitor in that picture but I suspect it was a standard 3.3uF cap as the 3.52uF value is nonstandard. So, with that background, here's where I could use this group's learned council on a few questions:
1. In terms of the crossover frequency, is the difference between the 3.3uF and a 3.52uF capacitance values even audible?
2. I can install a standard 3.3uF CAST capacitor or ask Frederik to make a 3.52uF capacitor. What would the group advise?
I note that the difference between the two values in question is 6.7% This may be within any relevant capacitor or other design tolerances which may make the choice inconsequential, I just don't have enough experience to know.
I would write the manufacturer for his council but having found him to be reluctant to answer such questions in the past I don't think that is an option.
Thanks for your help,
John |
John, with a first-order crossover the slope is so gradual that there will be little difference in sound due strictly to the 3.3 vs. 3.52 difference in value. You certainly want both speakers to be matched but either value could be used. Of course, it is hard to isolate the sonic differences due to cap value alone---any comparison is complicated because different caps sound different, even two caps of the same mfr and model.
From your description, it appears that these speakers were "improved" by some prior owner who added a bypass cap. I agree with you that this nearly always causes problems even though the bypass cap may sound more spectacular at first. If I were you, I would probably go with a single 3.3uf cap. |
I agree. One great cap would be better than a poor cap and a better bypass cap. You can also mechanically direct couple flat caps like the Duelund some Jupiter's and the Clarity Cap Dtac series. This method will move resonant energy off the cap and the crossover mounting surface much faster than mounting with glue or silicon and ties.. Tom |
Salectric,
Thank you so much for your prompt and helpful reply. Your reply was spot-on for the help I needed. I'll indeed go with the single 3.3uf arrangement in the new crossover.
I didn't ask the gentleman from whom we obtained the speakers if he was the original owner. He didn't seem like the sort who would modify the crossover, but one never knows. I suspect though that you are correct that someone other than Alan Yun (Silverline designer) added that bypass cap.
There's another little oddity about the speaker: the internal wiring was been doubled, that is, two conductors have been twisted together on all of the connections. From having modified the crossover in a pair of Silverline SR17.5 monitors (I used Duelund VSF-Cu) and my Silverline Bolero speakers (Duelund CAST-Cu) I recognize the wire as what Alan used in those two speakers, but he only used single conductors for the connections. The picture of the stock crossover I found on the internet also used only single conductors. One more thing, whoever mounted the resistor, or re-mounted it as the case may be, must have lost control of the hot glue gun - what a big glob! I've never seen Alan be so sloppy before.
Thanks again for your help,
Cheers,
John |
Tom,
Thank you too for your reply. I posted my reply to Salectric before your note posted. Your suggestion is interesting but would it be needed with the CAST cap mounted in an outboard enclosure?
Thanks again,
John |
John
Granted you have more vibration in the speaker box than out. But your acoustic space is also a speaker box of sorts. A passive device in line has signal running thru it will also corrupt the signal with its own material resonance. Devices that are highly damped actually store much energy over a longer time frame so they also needed to be mechanically grounded doesn't matter if its in a cabinet or not.Tom |
Agreed. No bypass cap needed. Get Jupiter copper foil for FAR less money and they sound every bit as good....better to several good ears. No kidding. Your value will be out this or next week I am told. They are the SOTA in caps and sound quality based on my experience and others. |
Tom. How does one mechanically couple away vibrations on theses flat caps? With small brass points? How are the points attached to the bottom of the cap? Glue on the flat side of the cone?
I am building an outboard crossover for my speakers as do think all the turbulence in the bass chamber is not a good thing. I would love to mechanically couple away vibrations on my outboard crossover board.
Thanks much. |
Grannyring,
Are these the Jupiter caps you are using?
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_jupiter_ht_copper.html |
Yes they are. Two in my preamp and 4 in my CD player. Waiting for the larger values for my crossover. I also placed 8 in some Thor amps. They are spectacular. Several of us replaced Duelund CAST in our preamps and love the improvement. The Duelund caps are wonderful in our preamps, but these are better to our ears.
I suppose I don't know for sure if the speaker value Jupiters will be as good or better than the Duelund as I have only used them in electronics. Beta testers say the speaker value Jupiter caps are just as special in crossovers. |
Thread is 6 years old you would think the networks been sorted out by now sure looks to be a extremely costly bunch of putzing about. Might of been better to just saved up and bought better kit. |
John K? What? I don't follow your post at all. We are talking about projects over time, not one static piece of gear. |
We are also sharing a passion and love for building and learning. We want to tinker and play and get joy out of it. The destination is not the whole ball of wax as I enjoy the process as much or more. |
Grannyring,
Good points. Besides that, buying "better kit" as we all know by now, does not guarantee that all of the parts are the best that they can be. |
:-)
We've all said it to one another. We've all made our own discoveries one at a time or together. Doing what we've all done here, modifying, carefully and using high end parts, has blown our expectations of what is possible through the stratosphere.
For my own part, I have bought and bought and bought better equipment for the last 30 years and now "I'm free". I'm in control. Me, not the salesperson. Finally.
Thanks you all for being here and for contributing to this extremely valuable blog.
John, if you are "fair d'inkum" (Australian expression) about bang for buck and astonishing results read this blog thoroughly. I did, I'm beaming and I'm not the only one.
Sincerely, Tas |
Whoops!
Fair dinkum is what I meant to type. Lol |
|
This has been one of the better threads I have participated in when considering information, truly good attitude and shared experiences. |
My issue is that as far as I've read not one has compared the original unaltered network to modified one and many have modded network than modded again over and over. I have yet to read that the gents experimenting so have tested results at all just modded and it sounds great so modded again, and again it sounds better. This is a very unscientific way of getting results and enables the many flaws of human perception to rule instead of facts. Most don't seem to understand the different levels of insertion lose. Or magnetic interaction between crossover parts. And again many who are throwing crazy money at average loudspeakers with run of the mill transducers.Confirmation bias is mostly what I read about in this thread. Not trying to be a jerk etc just trying to help. I design loudspeakers networks etc. Only real way to tell if crossover part is better than stock is to compare the 2 test objectively and subjectively not to mod both and just listen falling prey to biases and other human faults. |
Johnk,
Others here are capable of speaking for themselves, so I'll state my experience. My Coincident speaker has a Solen capacitor at the tweeter position. The sound of this stock speaker is very good. Replacing the Solen with the Duelund CAST was such an obvious improvement that there's no need to debate this, it's better!I don't need to reinsert the Solen to be "sure".
Charles, |
How do you really know? Since you didn't compare the unaltered to altered? You spent quite a bit of $ took time and did mod how could it be anything but better after? Maybe you should read up on confirmation bias. Its very easy to keep one speaker stock listen in mono to compare. How do you know if the dueland just has different level of resistance than solen this alone would alter sound quality. And may cause slight increase or decrease in SPL of driver. |
Not debunking the fact that different parts have different sound quality just the way the mods are done. I feel many posting could of saved time $ and ended up with better results if they approached the modifications with a objective skeptical mind.So easy to test end result with stereo speakers just mod one at a time compare result how hard is that? |
Every single mod I have done was only after living with the original for a long time. Not sure who your question was for John? As for me, I just completed another speaker mod that turned my good speaker Into something great for $700. Easily 40 % better to my ears which is all that matters. |
Johnk,
I 've made changes in my audio system that weren't always better but just different or a bit worse. I simply report what's heard and accept it for the reality it represents. Duelund CAST in my speaker and DAC were "significant" improvements on what was already very good sound.For me it's as clear cut as going from my former class AB SS amplifier to a class A SET amplifier. Unmistakable upgrade for me and no need to go back and forth(I knew the sound of both very well and the contrast was too profound to deny).
Charles, |
Johnk
This discussion is all a bit academic. Are you looking for reassurance? If so, it's all in the previous pages of this blog.
For my own part, the kind of mods I've performed produced results that were night and day different. In terms of difference, I'd say my speakers sound like speakers worth three times the price. I have heard 30K speakers and I'm now very much in that territory. FAR less grain. FAR more natural. FAR more revealing. Bass that is by far better controlled than before.
I've had my speakers for 10 years. I just don't need to do an A/B to know what effect my mods have made. I could itemise the changes from memory with numerous reference tracks I have. There are some pieces of music I've listened to more than 80 times over the years on my setup.
I'll repeat what I said in an earlier post. Read this blog, learn what others have tried and do your own A/B comparisons if you want. There are some very bright and enquiring people who post on here. I, and I'm tipping most others on here, are way past the point of having to make sure we are making a positive differences and, yes, some people here have done their own A/B comparisons along the way. People here have been in touch with their equipment manufactures, technicians, their own guile and a huge amount of trial and error. I found this out by reading this, yes? Some stuff they tried worked brilliantly, some not so much. But the determinations are clear, for much less money than the cost of upgrading, you may be able to make significant gains in the performance of your system because of the work done by many people on here.
The differences that can be made are just too obvious. Too radical. Often, too much better to require "scientific" certainty.
For me, this experience has been like a badly asthmatic person using a, desperately required, inhaler. For me, it's been THAT obvious. So satisfying and good I wouldn't dream of undoing anything.
I am now in a position where my speakers are now so revealing that just about any change I make to my setup is highly perceptible. Almost radically so. Resonance control has now become incredibly important. I am in absolutely no doubt about whether a change to my setup/room is making a positive/negative/nil difference because the clarity and resolution I now have is streets ahead of what it ever was before. Ever.
For the record, in my speakers, I replaced, internal wiring, all capacitors, all resistors and all terminals.
By the way, I'm a trained scientist and opera singer. I know about scientific process and I have a deep love of music. (Just thought I'd throw that in here for added colour...lol)
Cheers, Tas
P.S ...I also love tennis, Australian rules football, Italian food, walking......lolol |
If you note I was one of the 1st in this thread. And I do find it a bit strange that a trained scientist would ignore the most basic tests and just trust subjective results. I still think if those who mod would approach it with more knowledge and and bit of skepticism. And maybe even compare results not rely on flawed acoustic memory and confirmation bias. This thread focuses on only one aspect of a loudspeaker and a loudspeaker is a whole and should be designed as such. Tossing crazy money at inferior transducers to me makes no sense at all. but I do know that it's futile to discuss this. People who post to these threads tend to seek agreement and ignore those who don't just say great job well done you rock. So I end my replies to this thread. |
Johnk,
With all due respect, your recent posts make little sense. Of course the process is subjective, you hear something and judge it's quality of sound. Either it's an improvement or it isn't. People contributing to this thread have had sucess and failures with various components and modifications. I don't get the sense that we're here just to pat each other and ourselves on the back. Many of us aren't qualified to make radical or extensive modifications to our speakers. The fact that by changing a capacitor (relatively simple) can yield significant improvement in sound is noteworthy. I am happy to let others know of my pleasing outcome and that they can achieve similarly good results in their systems as well. That's a positive occurrence IMO.
Charles, |
I have to agree with a lot of what Johnk said. Too many people, including folks on this thread, get seduced by the "I modded it so it must be better" perspective. In all equipment, but especially with speaker crossovers, a "better" component may not actually result in better sound. There are too many other factors involved.
Consider another context. We all know that when we try different preamps or amps in our system, it is often easy to notice certain qualities that we think are improvements but it may take longer to notice failings. Well, the same thing occurs when swapping capacitors, chokes, resistors and wire in a speaker crossover. The new part will undoubtedly change the sound but is it really an improvement? Are there some negative qualities that go along with the positive ones? Often the negatives may seem minor at first but become major issues later on. It does indeed help to return to the unmodified version as a reality check. (I don't agree with making changes to one speaker and leaving the other stock but that was beaten to death earlier in this thread.)
Adding to the confusion is the breakin factor. Nearly all new component parts take time to reveal their true sonic character, so they can't be judged within minutes or even hours after being installed. My approach with crossover parts is to hook them up with a dummy load on another system and run them 24/7 with FM to let them break in prior to trying them in my speakers. Then, after I install them, I switch back and forth between the prior component and the new one every few days or so in order to get a real fix on how each of them sounds (in the context of my speaker). This takes a lot of time and I would not say it is always fun, but I don't know of any other way to evaluate parts objectively.
As an example, I have been trying Duelund CAST resistors in my speaker crossovers. These took a long time to reveal their true character. If I had only listened for a few hours, I would have said they were unacceptable---detailed and dynamic, but too wispy in the highs and lightweight in the bass. Yet after putting a lot more hours on them, I am now very pleased with how they sound. (Incidentally, the CAST resistor sounds nothing at like the regular Duelund resistor.)
So the bottom line is that you do have to go back and forth between parts to assess their true sonic qualities. Some people may be happy after installing a new capacitor and never look back. That's fine for them, and I am not critical of their experience if they are happy with the end result. But this approach won't work for all applications especially where the part being replaced is already of high quality. I would also add that swapping in a brand new component like a Duelund cap that takes a very long time to break in means that it will be difficult to state with any precision how it changed the sound since you are relying on memories from weeks or months earlier.
It should also be obvious that you can't change lots of parts all at one time and then try to say what changes were due to what part. This is one of the things that frustrates me so much about Jeff Day's long blog about his Tannoy Westminsters, but that is for another day. |
Johnk
I'm sorry to hear you're out but, if I may be permitted a superficial observation to your comments on here, you seemed too vehemently one sided to me.
I should add...... , you started off your messages by saying:
"Thread is 6 years old you would think the networks been sorted out by now sure looks to be a extremely costly bunch of putzing about. Might of been better to just saved up and bought better kit."
What I got out if reading this thread is that it's possible to save HUGE sums of time (and money) - the exact opposite of your view - and, what's more, I have. That doesn't appear to interest you or you're suspicious of the idea. I think you are operating on a different wavelength altogether and you'll never be interested.
Scalectric Excellent and very, very patient post. Thank you for persisting.
Cheers, Tas (who is still beaming lol)
P.S. I also like world peace and Thai food....lol |
Salectric:
Actually, "bugger it" (another Australian expression lol), you rock! Thanks so much for all your free information and insights.
To the forum:
I reckon Johnk is a dealer otherwise he'd be "pissing himself with excitement" ( yet another wonderful Aussie expression.....where do we come up with them?! Lol) about at least trailing some of the things that have been determined on here.
Cheers again, Tas (who is now just being naughty, having a laugh and shouldn't be taken seriously FOR THIS POST ONLY ha) |
