Jwm, based on what is in the Duelund cap I would say they are more like the Audio Note Mylar, copper foil caps in materials only. Duelund uses a special process to build that others don't however. |
Charles, I have seen the cap cut in half and well as the builder of Lampizator and Lukasz recent comments mirror what I have posted here. |
I went to,the Duelund website and here is what they says about the CAST caps:
The Duelund CAST Capacitor is our no holds barred flagship capacitor.
The construction builds on the foundation of our Virtual Stack Foil design but does so with the addition of a proprietary WPIO dielectricum which necessitates several days of impregnation under high pressure.
Interesting as I see no mention of the plastic substance that was everywhere and most prominent? I saw no paper except the outer wrap?
This was a .22 uf CAST cap. Do they make different grades and types of CAST based on value and retailer? I doubt it.....This is quite confusing for sure. |
Bill,
I agree mylar isn't an organic material but a synthetic. I was referring to the organic sound quality of the Duelund CAST. It'd be nice if Frederick of Duelund would comment. What ever their method of construction they sound devine.
Charles, |
Charles agreed. I am interested in why the claims don't seem to match materials however? |
The manufacturing process is described this site and appears to relate conversations with Frederik.
The Duelund Coherent Audio CAST Capacitor: The World's Finest ...
jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=370 |
Reynolds853,
Thanks for that link. I think there may have been an answer to everyone's questions buried within the article. After an explanation of the long process of consructing the Cast capacitor with paper and copper foil and oil (very interesting process), there is a picture of what appears to be Cast capacitors that look the same as the oil and paper Cast capacitors, and the writer explains that they are a new product, Cast mylar capacitors.
This might explain Grannyring's experience with opening up one that appeared to be all plastic. |
Roxy54,
Yes,I agree with you.It just doesn't make any sense for Duelund to be misleading about their fabulous capacitors and that's why I was hesitant to cast doubt on them.Duelund should clarify to avoid confusion concerning the various capacitors.
Charles, |
Yes, the current CAST is not paper in oil. Agreed this is misleading for sure. |
When did this new construction process begin? Mine were purchased a couple of years ago. I'm curious to know if the" new" version sounds different( could certainly still be fantastic). Frederick shed some light if you don't mind.
Charles, |
As Roxy54 noted, it seems that both paper-in-oil and mylar are available:
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=3794 |
Dear All,
I got a mail, saying that Lampi's findings were being discussed here.
Long story short - We make a lot of different type of caps. For the sake of competition we divulge some details but not all.
The ones Lampi took apart were CAST630v, which uses a special mixed dielectricum, we are quite proud of.
In essence, the copper foils are separated by two layers of paper, which is vacuum impregnated with our WPIO liquid/oil. Just like a regular paper in oil.
The material inbetween is not Mylar, as speculated, but something Steen discovered would work great in this application. Which is why we use it.
The cap is not in an oil bath - as we found the fully casted foil sounded better, the paper however is permeated with oil.
Incidentally, the CAST100v is completely different, The CAST Mylar we did for the Tannoy project is different again, and it does contain mylar.
On order we also make a myriad of different setups, be it PIO, WP, Teflon, Tin, Polystyrene, metalized. etc. etc.
Best regards,
Frederik
Duelund Coherent Audio |
Bill,
You mentioned seeing some pictures of a sectioned Duelund CAST capacitor, are those pictures posted online? I wonder if it was one of the Mylar types but perhaps without the label visible. I also wonder if the resin matrix material could appear as the plastic type substance you mentioned. Regardless, I sincerely believe Frederik's products are as he represents them to be.
Cheers,
John |
Bill,
Frederik responded here to my email quicker than I expected, but I should have known he would as I have always found him to be very helpful. And please ignore my previous post!
Cheers,
John |
I think this has reached the point that Frederik should shed some light. My original CAST caps had this organic smell the last bunch did not? Or at least I remember the smell of the originals VSF and CAST.
I can assure everyone they for sure are oil as be of mine is leaking. I just have it out and am replacing it today with a brand new one sitting here that I have. I can take pics of the leaking one if someone needs this?
I am sure there is something in the CAST caps for rigidity (helping with the extremely low loss of energy) I was under the understanding they were all natural as well? |
Hi Volley,
The organic smell may be due to us changing the outer coating of the paper tube.
|
I appreciate Frederik's candor but I wish there had been some sort of acknowledgement prior to this that the CAST caps do not all sound the same. At least this would help explain different reactions to them. For example, I have stated in this thread before that my two 630v CAST caps----the .47 and 1.0---sound different. The only visible difference in their construction is the different type of leads: the .47 has solid wire that is silver in color and the 1.0 has stranded or pleated copper. I had always assumed the differences in sound between these two are due to the different leads. Now I have to wonder if the caps may be different inside as well.
I have never compared the 630v caps to my 100v caps in my speaker crossover, but given Frederik's statement above that they use different construction, I suspect that may explain why I am much more happy with the 100v caps in speakers than I am with the 630v caps in my electronics. In my totally arbitrary ranking, I would give my 7.5uf, 100v CAST cap a 9, the 1.0uf, 630v CAST an 8, and the .47uf, 630v CAST a 6. |
Salectric,
Unless your 1.0 uF 630v is of the older flat variety - there is no difference except leadout and capacity. |
Thanks Frederik. I guess the leadouts make a worthwhile difference.
I noticed that the leads on your Silver CAST caps are your silver ribbon wiring (which I like very much for internal wiring in my amps and preamps). The next time I try the .47 CAST caps, I will attach some extra 0.5 wiring I have, soldering the wires close to the body of the capacitor, to use as connecting leads. |
Frederik,
Thanks for the prompt response, as speculation and innuendo has the "potential" to get out of control. Are the variety of CAST capacitors(different materials) labeled for cleat distinction among them? I have the 1uf 630v in my DAC and the 5.6uf 100v in my speakers. Both are splendid.
Charles, |
Really, No one answered my 5-22-14 question on the Balanced connections?, who can be an asset? |
"Unless your 1.0 uF 630v is of the older flat variety - there is no difference except leadout and capacity."
OK, so the way I interpret this statement is that the older, larger diameter flat 630V CAST caps are of the same WPIO construction as the 100V Cast caps, just with a thicker dielectric layer. The newer, smaller diameter 630V CAST caps have the extra layer of "mystery material" between the paper layers to increase the dielectric strength and decrease the size.
I know a few of us had questions when the shape and size of the caps changed a while back, and we were assured that these were still genuine CAST caps...it seems they may genuine yet still different, though. |
The CAST cap I saw cut in half was not used or purchased by Lampizator as an FYI, it was purchased directly from Duelund last year. |
The CAST .22uf I saw cut in half had no paper at all and again purchased from Duelund direct last year. Appreciate you coming to this thread and engaging us Frederik.
I have purchase quite a few of you caps ... All CAST ..... And am a little confused to be honest. |
Not sure about innuendo as my comments are based on actual viewing and not words. Seems my comments are pretty spot on. Anyway, I agree completely with Salectric that the smaller value CAST caps with no internal paper and the "non organic substance" do not sound as good. That is what we have found through much use and trial.
I am confused and will the real CAST cap please stand up? |
Grannyring, I'd like to see that cap, it can be hard to see the paper if you cut it in half like Lampi. In the unlikely event there is no paper, that would be an error - but I'd be extremely surprised.
Best regards,
Frederik |
Ait,
Only difference between the old flat ones and these is the shape. Same internals.
As said before we have done others on special orders though.
Best regards,
Frederik |
Charles,
The difference between them, is in the voltage rating. |
Grannyring,
If you can please supply me the invoice number, I can verify how it was made. And just to be clear, there is no cast630v values without paper in them, unless specified by the client.
Best regards,
Frederik |
Frederik, the cap was disposed of. The layers were peeled back and no paper, simply copper foil with soft plastic. I could also find no oil? This is what was found in this one cap. I would think oil would appear over some time, but it never emerged from the split open cap.
I call it plastic as I don't know what the substance is.
Again, the cap sounds good and I was and am simply confused on how it could be called PIO. That's all. |
Grannyring,
They hold oil in the paper, please mail me your old order mail. I'll find it.
It's called a PIO because we have two layers of paper in them impregnated with oil.
Best regards,
Frederik |
Thanks Frederik. That explains why no oil as there was no paper. Ya, this is best handled off-line. Thanks again for taking the time to post here. |
I'll track it when you mail me, I'd be very surprised, it would be half size. But will certainly look into it. |
Bill,
The innuendo comment wasn't directed toward you. It was a general statement/observation on how rumor and speculation can sometimes run out of control and people pile on. I am glad Frederik has responded to this thread. Clearly there's a variety of CASTcapacitors which was unknown to me.
Charles, |
Bill you are aware of a cut open CAST that had no apparent oil.
Volleyguy reports a CAST capacitor that leaked oil!
Charles, |
Thanks Charles. I am sensitive it seems. Sorry. |
Hi folks
well, I have two points to make after today. Firstly, after seeing my HiFi technician, it appears my CD/DVD player has got direct couple outputs. (Well predicted Salectric!) No cap upgrades to make - in that area anyway. The important information I got from him was to concentrate on improving the power supply in the player - something I already have strong plans for.
.....and, secondly, something that I think is very important indeed, my wife has started listening to music with me lately and has been commenting on the fact that my system sounds so listenable. 'So easy and natural to hear.' Folks, she NEVER normally listens with me. Now she does and she hasn't even ask me to turn it down. Do you understand how much of a step this is? She doesn't just hear - she really listens & she's impressed! For crying out loud she has requests!!!!....lol I can sit here and give you people opinions about improvements, changes...whatever, but this event says much more than anything I could come up with. The "bystanders" in my place are coming closer to the music because it's good and they want to hear more. That's a powerful change in events here. My speakers are no longer boxes! They are now revealing so much more.
My music is transformed and getting better. Often I find myself doing tell tale things like tapping my feet or my hands, laughing or even just drifting off because I'm feeling or hearing stuff that makes the music "make sense". Lots of good ol' fashioned positive emotion in this house at the moment and it continues to improve. Singers are singing to me, bass players stand out in a performance and even change their intensity at times. Keyboard players appear where there was just sound. Strings contribute to the emotion of a performance instead of just making a pitch. Frank Sinatra sang really low notes in a song I listened to earlier instead of just singing words - I didn't know until now how low he could sing!!
The point is I'm now completely re-appreciating my music and it's exhilarating.
Thanks for listening and THANK YOU to all those who have participated in this thread. Your enthusiasm, knowledge, advice, efforts etc have been a major factor in this powerful change. I'm smiling as I'm typing and I love it.
Thanks again, Tas |
Hi Tas,
What you've described is a profound occurrence. Your wife (and you) is responding spontaneously to the "natural" character of the sound and this is a major step! I long ago rejected the notion of audiophile hifi criteria and its so called accurate and hyped detailed sound.
Perhaps all the years hanging out in jazz clubs and live instruments in my home but for me the right pursuit is towards the natural and organic. When your priorities shift to that direction, emotion, communication and involvement come along for the ride. The last thing you're interested in is
un involving analytical assessment. Music is meant to be listened to and
enjoyed (deeply). Just think, you've made your wife happier.
Tas I really felt you'd appreciate the Duelund effect/improvement in your speakers and resultant system overall influence.
Charles, |
Tas, great yo hear you are very happy with your work! |
Tas my feeling on this is women do not care about HiFi... They do however love music.
Another one that struck me a long time ago was my teenage daughter would say I am literally afraid (for real) to go into the basement and turn the corner. I know it is a stereo but I am still afraid there are people there. She has had her teenage friends over and even my wife was saying the teenage girls could not get over the sound... Kept going on about it.
I am not sure if I could tell the difference from liver either from around the corner.
In Frederik's defence yes for sure even the later CAST caps without the smell do have oil inside as mine just went back today to partsconnexion.
I can assure beyond a doubt they have oil or I should say mine did but it leaked out... All this talk made me want to cut it open. |
Bill for sure did not want you to think you were being picked on.
Frederik I think there is a natural skepticism people have to a company establishing a quality name and product and then claiming lower prices for the same product. (been done so many times)
Is it wise to even put out a special order CAST cap with different materials with the CAST name? Is this what Bill has seen? I know my CAST cap did leak oil but did not have the natural smell of the old CAST caps and why?
If the reason was to save money is that not against what Steen stood for? (no compromises)
Yes the CAST cap sounded very good even with the different paper outside. I did not have the other one though to compare.
I suspect the reason some think the crossover caps sound better is just the comparison to what was already there.
Irish65 was one to claim that CAST made more difference in electronics over VSF. |
After a couple weeks listening to the all vintage amp I have called the repair guy to basically beg him to fix the amp (move up the waiting list) with all the Duelund caps and some Jensen Paper Copper tube caps in. Vintage is just a mess! (timing is awful) No amps are staying stock anymore.
Even where I thought vintage caps sounded good (certain specific freq) they are really just high resonance, stretching and hollowing of sound...
I am going to try some Jupiter caps though from the good reports here.
Their price in small values (especially) is much less.
There is negative to all of this. My office system is not Duelund and all of this changes the bar... This has made me very picky. (not by intention I can just hear the faults)
At some point I am having two amps modded in case on goes down...
I see no reason to leave any amp stock now even for reference. |
Yes the New Jupiter case are wonderful. I spoke with Chris of Jupiter today and he think the speaker values will be ready in 3 weeks. Values up to 22uf!
I want some for my tweeter and hope this is accurate. |
Hi Volleyguy,
I look forward to your listening experience of the Jupiter capacitor and how it sounds compared to your very familiar Duelund CAST reference point. Should be a lot of fun.
Charles, |
I do too Charlesdad.
For right now I am going to put in some ampohm Copper Foil and might try the VCapcuft's I have here.
I just can not take the vintage anymore! Farrrrr too many flaws.
I am looking forward to hear some Jupiter caps! |
In a previous post I had mentioned the Ampohms sounded VERY much like vintage I want to test that again.
I also said once the vintage in the midrange did not sound a lot different than my VSF and I might revisit that one. It might be me hearing the resonance so much more now...
This high end cap stuff drives you nuts I can hear flaws so easy now even when the oil started to leak! |
Better positioning and support made a big difference in my XO. All resistors are now Duelund CAST, All capacitors and inductors in the main signal path are Duelund CAST. Secondary capacitors will be changed to Duelund RS in a few weeks. My speaker never sounded this good, the improvement in huge. It is still in prototype form, using and MDF base, with BDR cones supporting it. After the RS caps, we will make a final enclosure, and use better support.
See link below.
http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1403441383.jpg |
Vn101606
I'm really interested to know what you mean by "positioning and support".
Since I completely rebuilt the internals of my speakers, I have constantly thought about whether I positioned my new components in an optimal way. Love to hear your take on your experience please?
A further point with my experience, my speakers continue to improve. Not sure why/how but, at around 300 hours, they are absolutely getting purer, more natural and less harsh by the day. This continues to be the most astonishing thing I've ever done in audio.
The only thing I find myself wondering about, in terms of new equipment, is what it would be like to own a Dude preamp!
Cheers, Tas |
It would be wonderful to own a Dude preamp! I know from experience! |
Vn101606
Nice job on your crossover and thanks for the pictures. |
