Years ago while upgrading my Dunlavy SC4's the first thing I did was seal the interior walls of the enclosure. Huge difference. Next was to build a multi resistor bridge using Vishay metal film resistors..Huge difference enough to make me wake my daughter and have her listen. Inductors swapped for North Creek 8 and 10 gauge..a little difference. Built multi caps to swap for the stock single value Solens. Things got worse especially in the bass lower mids.
Single upgrade cap in comparison to the same value Solen..the sub cap sounded much better. With that experience in ear and mind I built multi caps stacked all of the same manufacturer type and brand the outcome sounded thin and less involving. Its as if the bass was now combed and filtered ..multifiltered uneven in transistion. All caps were built within 1% of original published/printed Dunlavy values. My experience in this rebuild venture makes me profess the cabinet seal material the resistor bridges as well as the inductors. The multi-cap mis-adventure or by-pass has since made me stay with single cap swaps only..which I feel make for a better listening experience. Thats how I heard things . Tom |
If the Duelund speaker wire has no vibration/resonance control then what is the purpose of their Cast system for caps and inductors? There seems to be a disconnect and design dis continuity between their hook-up wire and what they hope is their product that is terminated at the end of the line. Tom |
Roger
I use some standard Duelund resistors in my power amps, units you are familar with. They did make for a nice upgrade from the previous Norh Creeks. I recently treated the Duelunds in the amp with Cascade also the transformers and the rest of the small parts with AVM. I did all these treatments at the same time. These are the only noise reduction compounds that actually increase fidelity without the resolution destruction of the so called damping methods.Tom |
Volleyguy
If you still have a North Creek inductor order up some Cascade Audio V-bloc. This material is a heavy anti vibrational paint that goes on purple and drys hard as a rock to a dense black color. I painted the parasitic filter inductor in my solid state amp and the V bloc made for a simple nice upgrade. I have since wound my own 8 gauge inductor for this same circuit and painted with V Bloc..wow nothing like an 8 gauge inductor tied to the output of an amp. I checked the Q of this inductor before and after the application of the V bloc. The Q dropped 20% with the anti resonance paint applied. Writing this for someone like your self who may have both a doped Duelund and a stock 8 gauge North Creek to compare the direct benefits of hard anti resonant treatment of a an untreated air core inductor. Tom |
Sherod
Glad you asked. I just treated the cd spindle platter of my transport with AVM and wow what a nice improvement..I have always heard an improvement after using AVM..now almost across my entire syatem. I use the Cascade on large surface areas, devices that are not as refined such as inductors and transformers. The Cascade is more heavy handed in that it can remove some of subtle musical detail along with the resonance that it tames. AVM never seems to do this it somehow is selective...How could that happen?
I have painted speaker dust caps and interior speaker surfaces with the Cascade product. At first there is a slight negative overall but then after a couple days of cure time it all comes back and is better overall.
Cascade you can purchase by the gallon for what a couple of ounces of AVM costs.
I selectively use both depending on the surface area and the activity of the device. Tom |
Volleyguy,
Both Dave and I use AVM. Dave has told me he too hears the benefits of this blue goo. To my knowledge Dave has never used the Cascade treatment.
I used the original version of Cascade 10 years ago on my Dunlavy speaker mod and it made for a huge improvement after treating the interior walls of the cabinets. The new version of the Cascade is easier to apply by brush or spray..goes on purple and drys matt black, so it looks fairly nice.
The Cascade is much more affordable than the AVM. For selective big jobs I use Cascade as I wrote previous. For speaker baskets I would use Cascade for tweeter bezels I would use Cascade for the interior of a soft dome tweeter and I would use AVM..now in that process mode of trial.
My suggestion is to treat the North Creek inductor that you know the sound of so well with Cascade, 2 or 3 coats..cure and compare again to the Duelund. Can that application bring the North Creek closer to the soul of the Duelund? What you have left over you may want to apply to an internal surface of a speaker cabinet. Tom |
If the solder you tried to use has a high content of silver and no lead you made need to add some extra flux, and use a iron with a different temperture. The no lead solder clumps and beads up if you use the standard tools and techniques, Tom |
Roger
No issue with using this un-shielded/sans vibration bearing dielectric wire internal to the constant bombardment of a speaker cabinet? Tom |
My previous post that could be taken as a critiscm of the lack of resonance control built into the Duelund speaker wire was intended to provoke the thought process of how the same material {flattened silver conductor] could be altered by materials added for the final products intended use.
An inductor using a state of the art foil wire will have its own predetermined intended environment {inside of a speaker cabinet]. Knowing this application the designer will select materials to control resonance and too preserve the fidelity and properties of the straight uncoiled conductor they started with.
The same conductor whose known musical magic will be affected differently outside the box uncurled will have to endure a different set of physical inneractions than those inside the box. The effects of static buildup on the conductor itself is of much importance in the Duelund design, or so I understand. If you were to add other materials to the supposed aide of vibration control then you may well alter or degrade certain musical attributes of the original product. The intent here is to build a set of ic's and speaker cables using all the same conductor thru out the process. Even these two devices using the same conductor will be influenced differently by the same application of resonance control materials.
The preservation of the music and the sonic signature of all the conductors involved should all be the same thruout a system. Duelund has this approach starting with their caps, inductors and resistors. Now to take it further with the silver conductor wire. That will probably reguire a whole other materials added list and different mind set. Tom |
I agree a little "tizz" or noise can go along way in making a soundstage larger and more hi-fi dramatic. These phase issues that many products carry in their signal path make things exciting at first until the listener can audibly decode that they are wrong and are not a real part of the musical event.Tom |
Ait
I wondered who would post first about this catch point. I agree... this was an experiment based on effects of damping and their side effects. All of this was done 8 or so years ago. Since then we use brass shot as the fill material around the conductors. Still overdamping can be expected with the non ferrous materials as well. Try removing the ferrous cover from your AC mains and hear what happens. Bends the fields of flux? Tom |
Out of sight out of mind. Value is in measurements. A sand cast resistor measures the same as a Vishay foil or a Duelund. The sonic difference will make you jump out of your chair. If they can't measure the the benefit of brass fasteners over steel they sure as hell are not going to take the time to listen to the difference which is obvious. Tom |
You will want to tension and mechanically hard mount the external crossover components but not damp them with some type of soft pour material or silicon. The whole assembly then needs to be coupled to good old Mother Earth for resonance to pass thru. Tom |
You want to minimize the storage time by tensioning the components of the crossover to a mother board such as Ironwood or brass terminated to ground...the floor with single piece footers, preference of brass or bronze.
I have added bags of steel shot to a outboard crossover such as the one mentioned above. At first adding single zipped locked bags of steel shot over and around components seemed to make for an improvement certainly a difference...made everything blacker/darker. After awhile I decided the music had died away. I played the same disc over and over again while removing single bags of shot. Each time more of the music came back with each successive removal...finally all the bags were gone and the music returned to the room. That was ten years back.Today I would improve my choice of components and expand upon the tensioning grounding methods applied elsewhere in my system with no soft damping materials at all. Damping will increase the storage time of resonance. Trapped. Tom |
Sherod the wire I used in the cabinet and everywhere else has a small insulated cavity around the conductor that was filled with the same steel bearing I experimented with inside the crossover. The wire could be overfilled to the point where it to would dry out the sound. With the right quantity of fill material this wire with fill treatment sounded better than the very same wire without any treatment at all. A little of this bearing product goes a long way on reducing microphonics and a little too much more shuts the open air sound down. Tom |
The Z's I used to replace a few of the Dales's in the Wyred4 Sound preamp volume control.. select values that are in my normal listening range made for a vey nice improvement in noise floor and transparency. Plus there are ones that are always engaged in the signal path those too were swaped out for the Z's. I have also replaced the non inductive wire wounds in my poweramps with the Duelunds making for the same type of improvement as the preamp. Tom |
Years ago I had built up ladder type resistor bridges made from the then state of the art Vishay resistors to replace the cheap low quality sand cast resistors in my SC4's. When I told John Dunlavy of what I was about to do he said it would make no difference and I was about to waste $600.00 in greenbacks. I moved forward with the project and the difference was staggering. Much lower noise floor, details I never heard before in the backround.. speed and clariy everywhere. I would love to compare a new resistor bridge made of TX2575's and a new Duelund. The bridge buildup would certainly cost more. Wow something more expensive than a Duelund component! Tom |
As a former commissioned salesman I request a % of that increase on every Duelund component sold hereafter. Thank you for your keen observation and your gratuitous response. I will forward you my direct deposit information. Tom |
Undertow,
Certainly appreciate your thoughtful input on these very difficult and time consuming evaluations. In my own experience I have found that the addition of bypass caps in speakers results in a loss of precise focus and change in the harmonic structure. Its as if I am hearing two slightly different crossover points and the alignment is off. I also know from my own experience that patience is a virtue when it comes to breakin time. That there is going to be a long melding process in the combination of two different devices mechanically and chemically. How long did you allow for breakin of each cap and how long for the siamese pair? What was your motivation to add the Mundorf to the original installation of the Clarity MR?
Tom |
Dave
Are you saying to measure the value of the main cap. A cap that is is supposed to be 10uf and measures 9.5uf then you would add the same brand and type of cap in this case .5uf. This is exactly what I did some years ago with a set of Dunlavy's and was disappointed with the overall outcome. I did not mix brands or types in the bypass section. I did change much of everything including the resistors[greatest improvement] and inductors[some] caps[kinda of a letdown] The low pass section required a 120uf cap which I built up from about 30 3.2uf Hitachi film caps that I felt were used sucessfully in other projects. These caps were a different brand than all the rest but were never used together to create another value. I will pickup some MR's now that they are available in smaller values to compare in the tweeter section now used. Tom |
Undertow
Thank you for your efforts of observation and Clarity..pun intended. What ratio works for you with the combo of MR's and S/O's. Example please.
Thanks Tom |
Thanks Undertow for your response. You, like me seem to make all the values plus or minus 1%. Do you believe that manufacturers go to the exacting component value matching that most contributors to this thread subject their own components to? I bet that manufacturers voice their product with a certain component installed without checking beyond the imprinted plus or minus 5% value. Maybe when we add our 5 cents to the value we are skewing the response from what the "Guru" said was the proper way. We trust our ears.
One thing that may not have been addressed here was the DCR values of upgraded inductors versus the original equipment.
Looking back in retrospect the dcr within a crossover especially one that is phase correct and time coherent the dcr value of an inductor must have been a part of the original equation. If you look at the swap out of a 14 gauge to an 8 guage inductor you will have a reduction in dcr of 55% or more. If you have several replacement inductors in a circuit and replace all with the same greater gauge can you maintain the original alignment and phase plot? Would you not change the overall critical damping of the speaker? The replacement dcr values would not be linear in there influence on many measurement aspects. I am not an engineer but I am a experienced and capable listener. I think I jacked some really nice speakers by swaping the original inductors for ones with much lower DCR. Inductor DCR variations within a speaker that is not phase and time aligned may not be as critical or as easily noticed or heard. You may have to adjust for Q and overall bass damping adjustments to get the bass corrected to your taste. My current speaker has a series crossover and has supplemental damping adjustments made by a tie rod screwed into the back of the bass driver and terminated and adjustable on the back panel of the speaker. This adjustment will compensate for all maner of things from wires to amps to furniture and acoustical rearangement as well as listeners musical tastes ...also variations of inductors and DCR. Tom |
Okay
With the help of a friend who has a large quantity of test equipment I will request his brain to test the variance of inductance in the presence of these different materials. My thoughts of a chassis was the material that the crossover components were to be mounted on, not the top cover or sides.Whatever material is chosen as a base, it should be just that a material that is rigid and conductive of resonance and vibration. Select a material that is reactive and not a material that will store and hold energy such as MDF or any material that is suspended on rubber, plastic glass or any other parasite of musical nature. Whatever chassis you choose direct couple it to the floor. Tom |
Roger
Have you doped any inductors with Cascade Audio V-Bloc? I know you have used this paint or compound for other uses. I did paint 2 North Creek inductors with this rock hard drying paint and it did reduce the Q by about 30%. I did not however make a before and after listening comparison...like I usually do for reference purposes. I will be sure to listen first before any application to the next pair. Tom |
Roger,
As you know there is a big benefit in hard coupling any power transformer to the chassis with brass instead of the ferrous steel and rubber materials usually the defaults in audio. With the inductors coated in Cascade I plan on the outboard crossover components hard mounted with insulating washers made of mypingo the same wood that clarinets are made and then direct coupled with brass fasteners and audiopoints to either a panel of mypingo or brass. I plan on using the same method with the Clarity D Tact caps which maybe by accidental design are perfect for the same mechanical grounding methods as will be applied to the inductors. The same mechanical tuning methods that you and I know work so well with speaker drivers and cabinets can also be applied and tuned easily to the components of an outboard speaker crossover or power supply. Perhaps non potted components will react more musically to outboard tuning than ones that are damped or overdamped by potting methods alone? Tom |
May Duelund comment here on the possible benefit of doping a speaker inductor and the reduction/lowering of its Q ? Tom |
All this DCR stuff I feel is very critical especially in highly damped speaker enclosures with a Q of between .5 an .7...It has been my experience that when you lower the DCR by changing inductor wire guage you also lower the Q of the speaker system. So someone purchased a North Creek 8 guage inductor and it did not sound as good in their speaker system as a foil type. The difference they were probably hearing was the retuning of the bass with the influence of the much lower DCR on the bass and not the actual material or geometric difference in wire or winding methods. There is a definite influence of all things mentioned but the major personality change in the speaker is the retuning of the bass mostly by the reduction of DCR. On my current speaker system there is a external method that allows for the listener to adjust via hex head the tuning of the bass. Variation of DCR values and inductor Q values can be recompensated for within the speaker system I have. Lower DCR values would I think change the time alignment compensation of a speaker so designed. Tom |
John
Look for materials of music in wood or metal. MDF is dust and glue so I wouldn't go there. How can that have a pleasant sound. Any chassis that you choose I would terminate with a hard material such as brass or bronze to the floor so vibration has a place to exit as fast and as coherent as possible. Tom |
Hello Gents from Duelund
So the use of non ferrous materials for a chassis is most acceptable. I suppose its up to the listener now to decide which material within this group is most musical to their ears.
Would you now answer how the choice of doping material used to reduce mechanical resonance will influence the Q factor of an inductor? And secondly is it better to have a high Q or a lower Q inductor for use within a speaker crossover design? Thanks very much. Tom |
Duelund Gents,
Will the natural Q factor of a inductor be reduced with doping such as the material you apply to your product? Is the mechanical Q the resonant energy curve of the device and would doping serve to flatten and broaden this curve? Asking about the use of inductors in a loudspeaker not a rf device. Thanks Tom |
My ears have told me this before that I can hear the time shift blurrr of multi caps. Tom |
If you put your K-Horns on Sistrum Sp101's while still in the corner it will change your life. Tom |
Recently I have installed Clarity Cap MR .47 uf values at the output of my hybrid Altmann Dac. I attached the MR's to Audiopoint 1.0's using Loctite Red as the bonding material. The points pressed down into the wooden chassis of the Altmann and secured in place with a few drops of the red stuff. The result is great improvement in dynamic expression and transparency. The range of dynamic improvement is very linear from top to bottom with no emphasis or restriction. When an expression suddenly happens on the sound stage it is just that... all with no shout. When the sound walks away from the front to the back of the stage the movement can be easily seen as a smooth and musical progression. Tom |
DCR is a very critical factor when modding a speaker system. For me once upon a time, a reduction of the DCR seemed to lower the Q of a speaker that already had a reported low Q. The result was much less weight and impact in the lower mid-bass and down even lower. My next speaker mod will have outboard crossovers where I can easily adjust mechanical tuning methods and have easy access to components and their replacement. Tom |
Ask the Gents at Duelund to measure the value you have and then post it here. You have the original..North Creek also has published DCR's on their site for the relative gauges of inductors they offer. DCR values may have predictable though differing effects in a parallel circuit versus one that is a series circuit? Tom |
And some wear baby blue polyester stripes..If you look bad does that mean you can't hear well? Could be a sure sign of DHS or deficient hearing syndrome. Tom |
Volleyguy,
Every progression you have made over the course of this thread your choice of caps your choice of inductors your exposure to different wires all have a common link...resonance control. I may have missed your comments on the application of resonance control to the largest radiator in your playback system...the speaker cabinet. Unless properly grounded and terminated vibrational fundamentals and their near endless harmonics are radiated from the cabinet along with the intended music originals from the drivers themselves. Like your horns vibration can be give direction and focus. As in other components you have now adopted and admire, resonance collection and mechanical grounding are key to musical performance. |
Volleyguy
Thanks for starting this thread. You should be commended for your diligence and open minded approach to all that is audio.
Tom |
How can you make a logical and sound desesion when listening to one component change in one speaker for 300 consecutive hours? Any less time is not a valid sonic comparison. Is the glass half empty or is it half full? One of each will not give a fair representation of the soundstage image placement. Two corrective or compensating lenses must be installed correctly or you may not be able to walk or drive safely. It must be likened to wearing one tennis shoe on the left foot and and wearing a dress loafer with a leather sole on the right foot. Fit finish texture air contact touch breath all are relayed as a pair to the left side and the right side of our brain. Our apendages are plural as are all of our sensory receptors and transmitters. |
Undertow
Yes I know their are others that have argued the point against the test methods involved. I did not revisit all 1400 posts I suppose my post had to do with how one's body may react to the nature of the test procedure. We don't react to music with just our ears but also with our skin, bones, muscles as well as our eyes.
Resonance control in the form of mechanical grounding should have been applied to these speakers before this whole process was started. The largest radiator is the cabinet not the speaker drivers.
Even though these speakers are meant to be corner loaded having the pair side by side in the middle of the room may also offer a more plausible placement for voicing. The corners may be built out differently, one corner being on an inside wall one being on an outside wall. The structure and integrity of these areas may differ in rigidity. One speaker maybe located closer to or even over a support beam in the house which could influence the perceived outcome. Openings into the room left or right may change the frequency balance. Tube age or differential in switches balance controls and volume controls could also alter perception.
Being a Doubting Thomas by nature I still have to give Volleyguy credit for starting this whole public adventure. Probably he has given many members further favorable thoughts and a few doubts as how to advance their own sound system. Tom |
Grannyring
I have had that same issue with a couple of other mods that I installed in my system. The most drastic one was the installation of a new clock in my transport. In first review it was like I had four subs in the room instead of just two. The bass was never over blown just more powerful controlled and deep. Maybe like you describe that effect wore off after a few days. Whatever it was I wish I could capture it and put it in a bottle so I could pour it out at a later date. Probably all apart of break in, that perpetual rotation of good and evil that most times takes along time to distill. Tom |
Volleyguy,
We don't listen just thru our ears. We should include other mass forms of our body. Skin, muscle, fat {darn it] bone and other body hair all become receptors for musical enjoyment. I think a seasoned experienced listener who may have lost some hearing sensitivity can make up for it and more by recognizing and using all textural areas of their body. Tom |
I use a sub placed as close to the outside of each main as possible.. mounted on Sistrum SP101's coupling platforms "I'm a dealer" I have made mechanical measurements in hopes of aligning the centers of the respective sub woofer and the mid woofer of each cabinet.Those who come over to listen say they cannot hear the subs operate and they blend in a seamless fashion. The stereo subs make for a larger stage and better highs. Ground up presentation. Tom |
Have a friend with modded K-Horns and a Lascala center he uses with a single modded Velodyne servo 15 or 18. All of these speakers are on platforms as described previous. Coupling all these speakers made for a huge improvement in speed and clarity all across the band. They have such large passive radiators [the cabinets them selves ] that everything was cleaner and we gained in spl as well. He uses all modded Cary gear of some type. .The Velodyne needs to be sealed internally with Cascade V-Bloc. This material can be painted on internal surfaces to seal the pores of the wood so there is much less compression/expansion loss. Improves the midrange of the sub-woofer as well [upward harmonics produced by the cabinet] This acoustic paint should be applied with two or three coats. I used the same coating on the interiors of my previous Dunlavy SC4's and Paradigm servo 15's. I now use James EMB1200's also sealed with this paint. This paint greatly improves the sound of any mdf based cabinets. Also use it to paint the baskets of speaker drivers. Drys like concrete so has no ill sounding affects as do soft materials. Tom |
I would need a drawing and or photos. If it is L shaped can you have one larger room walled off from the smaller area? Also need description of ceiling and hvac and plumbing that may interfere. Need to know the location of structural posts and beams. Window and door location? Whats above this area? Tom |
A room is a form of a storage capacitor..Jburidan your right. I will keep it off this page. Tom |
I found recently that carpet pile and weave make a very big difference as does foam or jute under layment. Just like a capacitor. Tom |
My experience is that with the Sistrum Sp4 rack between my speakers it actually improved the overall sound of my system. Images are clearly more defined and stable as if now anchored to the floor or into open airy space. The rack is totally adjustable and has no wooden or plastic parts to store or to trap energy. This rack makes no claim for isolation but does for acoustic coupling. My feeling is that because it is reactive by design airborne energy is attracted to its chassis. The result is a stable precise and huge sound stage. Reactive devices to attract energy when well placed in a room make for a more musical and natural listening experience..I am a dealer..Tom |
A room acts as a capacitor. How it may sound is dependent upon the choice or combination of reactive and resistive materials. Throw in your choice of geometry,alter the air pressure adjust the dynamic tension and listen to the signal flow. That's all folks. Tom |
Same applies to the rack or chassis of any other audio component. By..some more. Tom |
