Sorry about this reply I think I was on another section of the thread.
How does the Alexander compare to Jensen? I would think close? |
Too funny Saletric!
Just one amp and just one cap different. |
|
I have some VCap Cuft. Not my cup of tea as Jimmy would say.
They are interesting though. Super fast charge and discharge. |
I think Barry meant using a cooker on the caps?
Like he did on IC's and speaker cable?
Post was confusing though. |
Just order a phono stage CAST cap. Thrilled the way the amp sounds so far andI have high expectations of CAST at this spot in the circuit. |
"Mundorf caps are just average sounding"
Duomike to bad Mundorf were not average sounding. Most companies use caps of wayyyyyy lower quality. I think I know what you mean though average compared to CAST. |
Sherod
I hope you are right. I have heard so much good about them. I have only old (non power) tubes and when I tried the Gold Lions I was not expecting much and was shocked just shocked at how dynamic and quiet they were. |
Horchai
Not a bad idea. I have not looked inside the Oppo so have no idea if this is possible? |
I am back to testing the VCap Cuft vs. the Jensen Copper Paper Tube. I had started this before construction but shut down till it was done. I have not heard much about this cap in awhile? |
Duelund
Is there a correct way to wire in for polarity? Both leads are the same.
Thanks |
Just seeing if this works |
Hello Barrysandy
That was the idea of this thread to give opinions of sound of caps. The CAST caps are low noise or recessed. I was shocked by them and that was coming from even VSF. VSF are clearly noisy in comparison. That being said I have a CAST followed by a VSF in series. I compared two CAST vs. two VSF and then one of each. A little noise can give a little life.
There is no doubt which is the best cap. |
Barrysandy
The CAST did take a couple of weeks for sure. One thing that will be left in someone's mind after hearing the CAST is just how much noise is in the average crossover. Like I have said on here before I just can not take a speaker seriously that has caps like Solen.
We are just getting to finishing the basement now. Will be done in a month. We a had (small) leak a year ago and has not leaked since, nor before for 15 years! Looking forward to some final tweaking.
The downside to CAST is at first they are shocking. After awhile everything else is just noisy. In this thread when I first got CAST from VSF in the tweeter I really wondered if I would even hear the difference? I was blown away! So much for diminishing returns.
CAST made me realize just how much noise we are subject to everyday.
Could you imagine what recorded music could sound like if the recording side used CAST?
I think Barry our mind has an idea of what the music sounded like live. I do not think CAST add a thing to the sound. VSF do. I choose a combination in the tweeter and money was not the reason.
Do you think Natural describes CUft? Neutral would be it for me. |
Barry
That juicy "noise" can be had in the VSF. So much CAST talk but I love Duelund's VSF. They resonate very naturally. I do wish I got (or could hear) a CAST woofer inductor. It was shocking how much noise was cut by that part and a CAST I bet would cut much more noise. |
Every step for me John.
I took criticism for doing it that way but kept one network stock and one with each new part. Duelund used to laugh because I would order 1 cap at a time. EVERY Duelund part was an improvement to me accept the tweeter inductor and in my mind it should be said once you change resistance all bets are off if it will sound better.
I did it that way for the vary reason to not be duped into I spent a pile so it should be better. If you remember at the beginning I put in one network of Sonicaps had my wife hear blind and she went Wow! That is wayyyy better. She was talking about the vintage foil caps!
In that case I have one Duelund tweeter inductor not used. |
The room is being drywalled this week. I am putting down a wood sub floor and sound deadening insulation in I hope the right spots. Water leak fixed, I hope!
Then back to some new caps and hopefully a better sounding room.
I really wish someone would try a paper in oil power supply. |
Sub floor installed. For sure a room changing sound. Very excited to get this project finished. Then get back to capacitors. |
System hooked back up after long wait!
Sub floor is down on top of concrete and it is different but not sure if it is better? Bass lines are muddier.
$1200 in just sub floor material. Room is dryier and more comfortable but sounding better????
No furniture in room so not really reading much into this and only CD player hooked up.
Friend is coming with Oppo and I am curious? Blu-ray does sound impressive. |
OPPO is here. (mine a BPP95) (friend has 83SE) |
Ait I sure hope not!
I hope it is because of volume. I have already contacted parts connexion about .022 or .047uf deals?
Oppo just hooked tonight and shrill sounding and not very musical this is no doubt to early to tell and only on CD. Here we go again with burn in! Man I hate burn in!
One of the things I liked about Duelund, no burn in. (just from very good to even better) |
It does seem to be a standard business practice. (not saying it is for Duelund)
Make a product establish the name sell to loyal buyers, then need a lower price point to increase sales. (hence Alexander Caps)
I hope Frederik pipes in?
It must be cheaper to make hundreds of caps over one off's or pairs. (I assume) |
I remember reading in Steen's papers that the capacitors that he designed could only be handmade at this time.
Look forward to hearing from Frederik. Is it just volume of handmade or something else? |
Grannyring
Steen Duelund would say 50% of the system $ should be in the speakers and 50% of that should be in the crossovers. That crossover is a big deal! Also for most a HUGE weak link. A nice finish sells crossover parts?
I have been pushing Duelund to use these parts in the recording studio!
My Linn speakers had less than $20 in the crossover parts would be my guess. If a speaker company did not show me the crossover I would not buy the speakers. |
Oppo BDP 95 sounding somewhat better and is running 24/7 for breakin. Still unsure about the Oppo? I wish it sounded like a $10k digital front end played movies and every format. It does a lot but I do not think one is going to replace an expensive digital front end. My guess is the Oppo sounds like about a $1k CD player?
Looking forward to hearing/seeing it on Bluray and other high res which I could never play.
It does not sound anywhere near as good as my CD DAC but does seem well built and obviously does so much more. Today TV and furniture come in and project is now done!
Only one mistake I bought too short of Duelund Silver wire to run both speakers. The credensa my wife wanted if not amp centered and at $50 a foot for Duelund (double needed) I did not get extra feet of wire!
I am getting used to the wood subfloor and it does affect the sound. When the basement was some carpet some cement you would get a hard ringing sound. That is gone partly with all the insulation I put in key areas and no doubt the wood subfloor.
The book I read from an audio/video installer says the ROOM is THE most important aspect in any system and best bang for the buck.
I have less than $2k in sub floor and insulation and he may be right. I can not hear any ringing, echo or drone. A VAST improvement in sound throughout the room with no bad spots. |
Oppo is already more detailed on Redbook than my CD player. Hmmmm Oppo getting smoother as well. I am starting to hear what all the fuss was about! |
Sorry not a cap comment but the Oppo BDP 95 is sounding better all the time. A ton of detail. |
Barrysandy
It is interesting you mention the VCap Cuft as I was just comparing them today in my phono stage. (been in a long time as they have a legendary long breakin)
I my opinion the VCap Cuft is not as good as even Jensen Copper Paper Tube I am comparing them too. To me the VCap Cuft just does not do the midrange right. Voices do not sound natural. The caps sound mechanical. They have a very low noise floor are more detailed than the Jensen Copper Paper Tube are not slightly muffled like the Jensen or the slight drone like the Jensen but if you do not get the midrange right... Also the VCap Cuft are lightning fast at charge and discharge this might be the problem???
I can agree with the statement Apples and Oranges. Maybe I am a paper in oil guy? I am soon going to pull out the VCap Cuft. Just as poly caps did not mix well with foil caps vintage or new because of timing issues neither does Teflon mix with foil caps. |
Barrysandy
I heard the same comment I mentioned by someone else Neutral but not Natural. Mechanical might not be accurate maybe Neutral is? (then go on to say VCap Cuft Natural does not describe them)
I could use many good HiFi terms to describe them.
Now are these CAST caps real, they do come in the values I need? |
One CAST cap in Ampohm out. Going to take some surgery to get the other in.
So far dry and tight sounding??? Something weird going on? Not what I was expecting?
Might have try the other cap in another amp? I know CAST do take more break in time than VSF.
Just going to leave on for a few hours and check again. |
DGarretson
If I understand what you are saying is that amp designers used high uf electrolytics caps in part because the ESR is so bad that compensation was needed in uf in size?
You say that film caps have 1/100 the Electrical Series Resistance of eletrolytics? That's huge?
Can you explain for me and others what ESR means for sound and how do designers calculate how much is needed and how does ESR fit the calculation. Meaning the reduction of uf needed with lower ESR.
I have only replaced one power supply cap and it was vintage to Jensen Electrolytic and the Jensen sounded much harder. The Jensen is quiet with no noise but I was frustrated that the sound did not improve in fact going the other way. (Jensen was much smaller)
I must say as well that cap in the power supply made a big effect in sound quality. The only tough part was I could not test by going channel to channel like coupling but by memory which of course I do not like to use. I just stopped with the power supply and am stuck as to what to do? (power supply cap wise) |
Just doing some comparisons with the Jensen Copper paper tube vs. the Duelund VSF again. Duelund better bass sharper crisper less muffled even after a couple of years the difference is still very large.
I have never heard the CAST in electronics. I think I might have to try some. I did not get them before because of $$$ for small value caps. Duelund is more cost competitive in large value caps. |
Disorientating.
When CAST went in the tweeter I thought I wired something up wrong. No other cap did that including VSF.
This time at the start stiff and tight sounding. After several hours the CAST cap overpowers the others. (which in the left channel is VSF and Jensen)
I have went up to check the balance several times? It is very interesting.
This is a part that takes time to figure out. One thing about this thread is I can go back to see if the CAST caps had the smell? (from when I bought before) The VSF, inductors, copper and both lines of Silver wire for sure did. The wire was oily. The smell was the you can eat it smell. |
Just moved the Duelund VSF and Jensen Copper Tube coupling caps to an vintage EL 84 style amp with new Jensen Electrolytic cap in the power supply. Seeing if the results are the same in different types of amps.
EL 84 amp had lacked bass definition. (nice midrange though) The comparison will be against one vintage and one Ampohm Copper Foil cap that I tested before and sounded VERY close to vintage. I think caps should be tested in different syle amps.
The difference from vintage to the Jensen's was very big in the Fisher 500c.
The hope is to improve the dynamics and bass of the EL84 stlye amp while maintaining it's qualities.
I have one EL 84 amp with a ASC caps in the power supply. I am going to have to try that again.
SS power supply amp needs some work. (going in for service) It has starting making a popping noise when turning on and after the fire a long time ago if the amp is not 100% it gets fixed! |
Here is one for you for blind test.
I hooked up the amp on test speakers before taking to the main speakers. I thought I hooked up the right channel to the Duelund and Jansen caps. There was almost no bass in the right channel compared to the very boomy bass in the left. I was not sure what was going on?
The right sounded good just no bass.
I have always cranked up the bass on the EL 84 and down the treble in the tone controls.
The first thing I did was peel off the bottom plate to see what was going on? The Duelund and Jensen were in the left channel and the boomy sounding bass was quickly corrected by taking the tone controls back to flat.
For the life of me I can not figure out Tony Gee cap review on the Ampohm Copper Foil caps? Assuming they sound the same as the rest of the family he talks about. He talks about them being more see through. Yes very light.
To me they have a total lack of bass. They sound exactly like vintage? I could not tell them from the vintage?
They are an excellent cap if one was doing a vintage amp and wanted it to sound exacty the same way.
More to follow. |
Hooked the amp back up to main speakers.
One of biggest changes of any that I did was going from vintage power supply electrolytic cap to the Jensen.
I remember being stunned at the difference.
The biggest downgrade!
More than anything I have done.
This vintage amp that sounded good now sounds terrible! I thought it would get better in time but has not even after many hours in the bedroom system.
The Jensen is coming out and the 50 year old cap is going back in! I really wish I could get something better than these 50yr old caps or even as good just for safety reasons alone.
The Jensen is MUCH smaller than vintage and very dry sounding. (shrill and harsh) |
I remember back at the start of this thread taking much flack.
I was selling a set of speakers when a guy showed up with a vintage tube amp that looked like junk to me. My first experience of a complete foil signal path amp all through the speakers. I was just shocked at how much better it sounded than my $10k pre amp and amp. (SS) So I begged him for it and he sold me the amp and I kept the speakers. (so started the thread)
The thread started with my wife listening to one speaker each of vintage foil caps vs. modern poly caps. She thought the difference was just amazing. The problem was she did not know which speaker was which and was picking the vintage caps!
What was going on I thought all new parts would be better???
Then the quest started to find better than the vintage foil caps and up the food chain I went to Mundorf then to Duelund VSF then CAST (tweeter caps)
In some cases the Duelund caps were MUCH better in some cases like the VSF in the midrange compared to vintage foil the difference was not shocking but they were consistently better. (I would rate the vintage between 11and 12 for the midrange)
I did listen to the vintage tube amp on modern speakers with a cheap poly based crossover, not good.
Now here we are again replacing a vintage power supply cap with a new Jensen electrolytic expecting improvement and getting the exact opposite!
I know some may laugh but I can not tell the Ampohm Copper foil cap from the vintage Alu foil in Mylar (polyester) I would rate the vintage coupling caps by Tony's ratings at 11+. (the vintage lack dynamics and bass of Jensen and Duelund but not tone)
Why do vintage power supply caps sound sooooooo much better? At least than the Jensen?
I feel this part might be THE most important part of all! I have thousands of $$$$ of Duelund parts and Silver wire after the $50 power supply cap and that ONE part can make it all sound like crap! |
There is a pair of Black Gate WKZ's on eBay for $1200. I tried to get Peter (Audio Note) to sell me some before. (obviously no luck)
I have never heard the Black Gates just so much about them.
I think they are my size. Scary even to look!
I had one EL 84 changed to ASC power supply caps. I am going to get that amp back out. I do remember the tone change. Lots of bass though. |
Jensen out vintage back in.
Size of vintage is twice as big. Weight is 3-5 times as heavy. |
There are some Western Electric caps for sale on eBay for $2100
Just HUGE! Looks like 100uf weighs 5 lbs?
The ad claims best in the world? (sonically)
In my cap testing for coupling and power supply I have not heard a lighter smaller cap EVER outperform a larger heavier one of the same type.
Whether it is Western Electric, Black Gate WKZ, Duelund VSF, Duelund CAST they all have one thing in common they are big and heavy. |
Charles1dad
I am sure of it. The light weight Jensen sounded it's worse at high freq. they sound oddly enough what they look like light and dry. Shrill and harsh. I remember when it went in, just awful! (I was hoping for improvement through breakin no luck)
I would bet money that just like a Duelund CAST deals with the resonance even over the VSF so does the vintage electrolytic. Not through any high tech casting just liquid weight and mass.
I have heard guys mention how the poly caps sound better than any electrolytic in the power supply? If the Jensen is an indicator that would not be hard!
The ASC's that were highly rated had a liquid around the cap again weight and mass. No high tech dampening just weight to the structure.
I remember reading about how great a Leak Stereo 20 sounded (over other EL84 amps and hearing it had a paper in oil power supply. Hmmm. |
A link to a Leak Stereo 12 article.
Paper in oil power supply
http://www.44bx.com/leak/TL12_50yrs.html
Of course the amp was very expensive in the day compared to wages.
Now that the basement is done back to this power supply issue.
I was really hoping someone else would go there. If a vintage electrolytic can sound THAT much better what would a paper in oil power supply sound like?
Is that cap every bit a important as coupling caps. I think even more so! |
Ahhhh that's better! (vintage in and sounding wonderful)
Comparing the Jensen Duelund vs. the Ampohm vintage as coupling caps.
Duelund doing what they do best turning random sounds into instruments.
Three biggest improvements of all parts changed and it has been a lot!
1 Duelund CAST tweeter caps even over VSF (shocking reduction in noise)
2 Duelund woofer inductor VSF high freq noise reduction that shocked me in comparison to North Creek and the second place contender being the vintage wax paper inductor. (would still LOVE to hear a CAST inductor)
3 Vintage electrolytic over Jensen just huge and really opens the mind as to what is possible in the power supply.
All tests are being done on horn speakers and horns hate noise.
The theme is consistent and seems to never change. Make sure the part has a way of dealing with resonance or it will deal with you! |
Grannyring
I think my vintage caps are Mallory but I am not sure what they share with modern Mallory caps?
I assume your amp has a SS power supply not tube rectified?
The EL 84 amps I have use 60/40uf. Your size would be out of the question.
I am certainly no power supply expert just a guy with ears.
Grannyring I am "stuck" with the Duelund VSF inductors. (but i do believe you! From CAST experience) That was part of the reason for the thread having people talk before they buy. (selling parts is great way to lose money!)
Was anything close to the Black Gates and did you try the WKZ series. They look quite big and heavy. |
Grannyring
You can increase the uf on SS rectified? (unlimited) I understand you should not exceed a 50% increase on tube rectified. That is my next project the power supply in the SS rectified amp. Very much a pain in the butt to find the right parts. What is it like to find space in a new amp? The Fisher 500c is awesome for space underneath for working on lots of room for those big Duelund parts. (part of the reason I choose vintage to test on was space and point to point plus low entry price because when I am done I will own these amps no matter what) Space on top for power supply another story. On one of the EL 84's I had a deck made of steel to house the ASC caps. (huge caps!) I have get that amp out again as the poly caps were not shrill like the Jensen. A lot of deep bass is what I remember but a poly tone.
Is it a general rule of thumb but the sought after output tubes seem to always be big? I like the sound of the EH 7591A in the Fisher bigger than the original.
I can not even say for sure the effect of the power supply cap (change) is the same in SS rectified although I am sure it is. Quiet is quiet.
I have a gut feeling that a Duelund CAST is the ultimate power supply cap. DEAD quiet if you could afford it!
I am curious of Dgarretson's Clarity caps in the power supply. If the Jensen is a typical electrolytic now then they have no place in Audio (except space) and I can see why people will go to poly in the power supply. |
I am just stunned at how much energy is lost in most capacitors including VSF.
I have not fully assessed the "sound" but can already say on a technical basis for sure it is incredible how different the CAST is from Jensen, VCap Cuft and Duelund VSF. This has happened to me before I heard so much about diminishing returns at this level that cap differences become small.
Well I can say it is simply not true. In fact the difference on a technical basis is vastly greater from CAST and the other 3 than the other 3 have from each other.
The energy lost in a cap must be wayyyyy more than we (or at least me) thought? I read on something totally unrelated that up to 50% of energy is lost in heat in a capacitor? Maybe Duelund could comment on this. Is the energy storage that inefficient?
I guess that explains Steen's like of simple crossovers. A complex crossover would boggle the mind on energy loss! |
I have placed an order in for a Duelund CAST cap (might up that to two) and will likely get at least 3 more if they sound the way I expect. They are due in on Wednesday from Denmark. Then they will be shipped to me. Maybe end of next week? I live only 1 hour from Partsconnexion.
Houstonreef
It depends on what you like a bit. The CAST are ultra low noise which you should like in horns. I have compared in the Klipsch two in series 2uf tweeter caps of 2 Mundorf Supreme a Silver in Oil and Duelund VSF and Duelund CAST. The CAST when I first put them in I thought I wired something up wrong that is right after the VSF's! I actually put my ear up to the tweeter to hear if it was even working! I tried all combinations and liked a CAST followed by a VSF second choice was two CAST's in series. (just soooo quiet) I could not stand two VSF's as they were FAR too noisy! Also a loss of dynamics with all the resonance.
If I was getting just one cap it would be CAST clearly. I can assure you the difference is something you can easily hear.
I had tried the CAST before Tony Gee had and thought they should be rated 17 (by his numbers) then if the VSF was 12.5. He "only" gives the CAST a 14 out of 10?
I will be able to give another reassessment maybe by the end of next week at least in electronics. CAST vs. VSF in electronics is the coming up comparison. I am curious? VSF is my current cap best over Jensen Copper Paper Tube. I just could not justify CAST till now for small value caps. |
It is just my crossovers that were in series.
I already owned the VSF's which worked out nicely meaning not more money for CAST which are costly.
When I did the basement here the book I used for advice (on doing up the room) was the sales distributor for Avantgarde in the U.S. Jim Smith.
Some helpful tips. I did put down a wood sub floor. I will have to post some pics soon.
Love to hear the Trio's. What is the cap for you mid range horn? |
I am excited about the CAST for electronics coming.
We will see if my gut is right but I think CAST will be very good. In the Clarity White paper I think it was 30%? of people who preferred high resonance capacitors. I know more preferred low resonance but it was not 100% for low resonance.
Houstonreef asked which Duelund and that is not always clear. What is clear is CAST are mechanically superior BY FAR in controlling resonance over VSF.
I can not imagine (at this point) why anyone would want added resonance in the electronics? Resonance favors the frequency of sound the capacitor resonates at and reduces other frequencies bass reduction can be huge. The resonance is also a loss of dynamics. Resonance can give a feel of more "air" as that is the freq resonance occurs. My "guess" is if one wanted to "add" resonance I think you may want it in certain caps in the crossover likely midrange and not in electronics. (this is if at all!)
In the case with Duelund the harmonic structure gets richer every time I put there parts in. Your brain goes that random sound is a this or that.
In my final tests setting the caps in the amp. The test caps will be (of which I have two of each)
Jensen Copper Paper Tube
Vintage ERO foil in polyester
Ampohm Copper foil in oil
Duelund VSF
Duelund CAST (coming)
Will it be two CAST's or some combination? First test is CAST vs. VSF (my current reference)
Will I be able to get my in series Duelund tweeter inductor in the speaker. The only Duelund part that did not improve sound overall. The change in DCR did not work. |
I see the Duelund caps are in from Denmark at Partsconnexion.
It should not be long before they are here maybe by the weekend?
In the EL 84 amp that I put in the Jensen and Duelund VSF in the one side to compare vs. CAST when they get here it is just shocking how much more bass there is. I always thought the amp was just anemic in that department. |
