@millercarbon listening now to Flight of the Cosmic Hippo - with and without the REL T/9x (pair).
Cool track...
And YES you can hear the difference
Can anyone hear the difference when you add REL subwoofers when playing two channel
I wonder if anyone else has had problems hearing a difference when adding REL subwoofers to their two channel systems? I have gone back to a reputable dealer in town to listen to a pair of Vienna Acoustic Mozart's paired with a REL S3 and I couldn't detect a difference when they added and subtracted the REL. I wonder if this was because the Vienna Acoustic Mozart's are already can extend down to 30 Hz. I have also read reviews on the Mozart's and they said one of their criticisms was they felt the Mozart's to be too boomy in the bass.
The dealer keeps telling me I am expecting to hear a more punchy pounding bass sound and that is not what I should be listening to. He keeps saying I should be listening for greater depth and space to create a larger sound stage. He went on to say if I had a subwoofer that delivered too much bass, they would eventually drive me out of the room and spoil my enjoyment of listening to music. I thought I had sensitive ears to sound, but in this case I wonder if I am tone deaf. My fear is getting a pair of T/9i's in my home and my wife telling me I wasted our money because she could not hear a difference.
There must be a reason why so many dealers have told me their first pick would be a REL because they are so musical.
I also question why REL manufactures their subs with such low wattage? For example, their S3 delivers only 400 watts and their T/9i's deliver just 300 watts. When comparing them to subwoofers like JL, which deliver 750 watts to $1500 watts, maybe REL subwoofers are just too wimpy.
The dealer keeps telling me I am expecting to hear a more punchy pounding bass sound and that is not what I should be listening to. He keeps saying I should be listening for greater depth and space to create a larger sound stage. He went on to say if I had a subwoofer that delivered too much bass, they would eventually drive me out of the room and spoil my enjoyment of listening to music. I thought I had sensitive ears to sound, but in this case I wonder if I am tone deaf. My fear is getting a pair of T/9i's in my home and my wife telling me I wasted our money because she could not hear a difference.
There must be a reason why so many dealers have told me their first pick would be a REL because they are so musical.
I also question why REL manufactures their subs with such low wattage? For example, their S3 delivers only 400 watts and their T/9i's deliver just 300 watts. When comparing them to subwoofers like JL, which deliver 750 watts to $1500 watts, maybe REL subwoofers are just too wimpy.
112 responses Add your response
It is obvious while reading through this thread that some expect subwoofers to create unrealistic low-end bass that is beyond what was created in the recording; similar to a car stereo. The other half realizes that subwoofers support the system and play the low end extension that the mains are incapable of producing. The synergy between the mains and subs should be seamless; not noticeable. Some of the best sounding two channel systems I’ve ever heard had REL sub(s). I can certainly attest to the dramatic difference a single REL T7x made in my 2 channel office setup in a small room (13’ x 11’ x 9’). Another huge benefit of a sub(s) is the full sound at low listening levels. Lastly, I’ve owned SVS 2000 and JL Audio e112’s and neither were close to providing the sound quality of the REL. |
I can’t believe such an old discussion started up again. At the time I first listened to a REL t9 matched with a pair of Vienna Acoustics Mozart speakers. The Mozart’s already played down low and the small REL t9 was not able to be detected. Right now I am pairing two REL SHO’s with a pair of Paradigm Prestige 85F speakers. I can’t believe what the REL’s added. The trick is to set the REL’s at the correct volume with the right crossover settings. REL’s high level connection technology is genius. The moment you can detect subwoofers they are too loud. They need to act like additional woofers to seamlessly blend in. My sound stage suddenly appeared. |
Recently purchased a REL T5x to replace a PSB 125 sub. So far, the difference is that my front (and center) speakers are much more resolute and prominent. Best I can describe it is that it’s almost as if I’m finally hearing my front speakers for the first time ever. They’re way more prominent n’ present than before. It’s bizarre & mind bending. The REL enhances the fronts in a way that has me completely confused. Nonetheless, the PSB is ported, so I do kinda miss it’s longer & bolder bass extension, I think? 🤔 |
dadork, clearly, your not a dork. The improvements I think your seeking can be accomplished with the sub and room relationship, third party monitoring and equalization products using your subwoofer low level inputs. Unfortunately your subwoofers low frequency response has its limits in comparison to many other brands. Regardless, there aren't many low frequency rules. Your satisfaction is everything. Good luck with it. |
a single REL S5/SHO immediately made a nice improvement to my large tower speakers...I added another a year later, and also an immediate benefit...I used a T/9i with Magnepans in a smaller room and also, immediate quite noticeable improvement...have also used the REL T/Zero lll with small monitors and they add a nice bit of lower frequencies, though not typical "subwoofer" but quite enjoyable... |
I am going to expound a bit on my original statement of a year's time to integrate. I had never had subwoofers in any iteration. Not in a vehicle even. I had followed RELs instructions in the manual for setting these up. Using the hi level speakon I had limited but unsatisfying results. No matter where I put them or how I angled them. I fiddled with crossover and gain setting knobs more than my wife's knobs. I gave up after a while and at the advice of another forum member and hooked them up via RCA and used my integrated's subwoofer controls and low/ hi pass filters. This gave me what I was looking for or so I thought. After using them in this manner I started thinking, "Could it be better?" and "Why does REL insist the Speakon hi-level connection is best?" These thoughts propelled me to seek. I went back to hi level and worked at it some more. Still disappointed. I reached out to REL and after quite a length (months) of time I was finally contacted by a tech. He had me turn my gain about halfway up and my crossover at 0. I had to 'walk' the crossover up slowly to hear it finally kick in. In other words, I had to not hear it before I could finally hear it. From there it was a matter of listening over a few days and adjusting which, in my case tended to be adjusting down incrementally on both crossover and gain. Have I got it perfected yet? Don't know, but I am finally getting what I paid for and it makes a huge difference in every aspect. Satisfying lows, thump when needed, grab you by the keester, rumbly in your tumbly bass if called for, Timbre, clarity of mids and highs and a much improved soundstage. My journey could have been shortened quite a bit if the advice of bringing the crossover up from zero slowly had been in the manual. It is in a video online buried in the archives but I never knew about it. It also could have been shortened if REL had been more responsive to my emails and texts. I had almost given up on them but now they are tuned and integrated they are very good. Are there better? More than likely. But wow, what a difference.
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@jjss49 - Funniest post ever. You win! The irony in it all - by the time we are old enough to buy expensive audio equipment we are too old to hear 😀
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Too funny after all that. I have a couple of great older RELs, B1 and Storm III, and i have heard the 'air' added to Eva Cassidy's (bass-less) "Fields of Gold" track. It is audible and wonderful! I also have SVS SB-3000 and it is superb, despite the low cost. Probably better than the old B1 in fact. But with my Raidho D2s going flatly to almost 30Hz on their own (no head-banging volumes) I still have the B1 hooked up but mostly turned off these days. I have two SB-2000s for home theater and they were a steal at the $500 close-out pricing. |
Quote from Larry... “I have finally made my decision. After a lot of research, I am going with two F12 Signature Rythmik subwoofers” What did he end up with? 2 REL S3’s, lol. Maybe he could answer his own original question! Hey Larry, can you actually hear a difference? And by the way, Rel T9i’s can llay really friggin’ low. Not below 35hz is a joke |
larry5729 OP374 posts05-11-2019 10:44amI still don't know what mzkmxcv is trying to say. From what Rythmik told me all you need are two RCA cables (one for each sub) which would allow the sub to work with LFE when viewing movies automatically. Rythmik told me I can purchase the RCA subwoofer cables through Amazon for about $12 to $15. They said buying more expensive RCA cables are not necessary because I would not appreciate any improved sound quality for purchasing more expensive cables. The construction of the RCA cable (or any other cable) will make a difference for the subwoofer. Some have better bass than others. No need to spend high dollar, but some types just have better bass. |
Quote: bstatmeister455 posts05-09-2019 8:21amAlthough, I do like the idea of off-loading woofer duty from the mains amp (up to 80Hz). Currently I am looking for a cheap but great high pass filter - so far, a couple folks have told me to buy a resistor and a capacitor to build one myself, DIY style, but I might prefer an already made solution. If anyone has any ideas please let me know... |
Quote: I've experienced the affects of cable differences in my systems but I'm at a loss here. After my experience with a REL sub I don't mean to challenge your statement, rather to understand your experience. Could you explain how a cable with a Speakon termination at one end and bare wire termination at the other end makes a difference let alone a huge difference with music (two channel?) but not home theater? The Speakon connector is for convenience and is impossible to hook up backwards. It is not an "enhancement" technology, just a connector.! |
mzkmxcv740 posts 05-10-2019 5:10pm Yep. Some amplifier designers are offering a direct preamplifier connection to their amps bypassing the amps input components altogether. During our comparison using the low level RCA to the Studio III and bypassing the high level connection from the Ayre V-1xe we could hear and see a slight but definite frequency extension on the room response graph. In our room the most effective adjustment after the crossover point was by reducing the Studio IIIs gain. Using equalization and Room Optimization allowed a bit more gain and much better integration with the Studio III but no where near the integration of the other two DSP subs on hand. Differences in room and environment are an important and unknown element during a casual subwoofer performance discussions on the internet. With three subwoofers in a room at the same time individual performance becomes obvious even for the most inexperienced listener. After this comparison when I read claims of seamless or perfect subwoofer integration my first thought is, compared to what? I'll admit I'm a fanboy but I could care less if someone purchases any product that I use. Politely offering ones subjective experience is not bashing its merely responding. After a year of dialing in my main speaker positions an industry professional graciously came to my home and moved my speakers a few inches dramatically expanding the sound stage. I don't think there are more than two or three who frequent this site who have that level of expertise. One of those people is participating in this thread and he seems to be a satisfied REL owner. Larry, good luck with your choice and have fun with it. |
I still don't know what mzkmxcv is trying to say. From what Rythmik told me all you need are two RCA cables (one for each sub) which would allow the sub to work with LFE when viewing movies automatically. Rythmik told me I can purchase the RCA subwoofer cables through Amazon for about $12 to $15. They said buying more expensive RCA cables are not necessary because I would not appreciate any improved sound quality for purchasing more expensive cables. |
Hi mzkmxcv, Could you explain your response? Are you saying the SERVO technology Rythmik is using does not make sense and it will cause distortion? Jim Salk sure doesn't think so. There is a reason why he has partnered with Rythmik. He thinks they work remarkably well and they will provide significantly greater amounts of bass extension. In reality, the REL T/9i will be lucky to play down to 35 Hz, but the Rythmik will be able to play down to 14 Hz. If you are playing a recording that plays lower than 35 Hz, then you will not be able to hear all the frequencies the song was recorded at. I want to hear everything I can the way a song is recorded. REL and Rythmik have two different approaches. However I talked to both Jim Salk and Brian at Rythmik I feel Rythmik will be the right choice. When I buy something, I want to say WOW and not have to question myself when I can't hear much of an added difference. Again, if the Rythmik sounds like a boom box, I have 30 days to return them for full refund. SVS has this same policy, which I feel is very fair. Let me know what you think after you talk to Brian. Don't listen to his sales person because he did not design their subwoofers. You might want to call Brian, owner, of Rythmik. I think after you talk to him you will realize how much he knows about sound and especially bass extension. I really appreciate your hanging in there with me. I think we will all agree we have all been at a crossroads when looking to achieve better sound quality. I just wish I had the deep pockets some of you have. You also must have very understanding wives. Here is another subject unto it's own. Why is it there are very few women involved in this hobby. I know of one in this group and I am so grateful for her to be among us. |
@m-db It’s the same as using high level inputs. There is no “magic”. The claim is that unlike a line level connection (RCA), the SpeakOn method allows for the subwoofer’s signal to have the same sound characteristics that is being fed to the speaker. However, it’s pretty silly, what that means is you are thus amplifying a signal that already has been amplified, so it has lots of distortion/harmonics/noise, rather than amplifying a much cleaner signal. |
I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as the Rythmik being "too bassy". It's only going to sound that way if you have the volume and crossover set too high. I would consider the F12 as an entry level sub. You may find down the road you want to add another one (or 2 or 3) or step up to something with more output, depending on the size of your room, how well it integrates, and how much bass you want. |
Although, I do like the idea of off-loading woofer duty from the mains amp (up to 80Hz). Currently I am looking for a cheap but great high pass filter - so far, a couple folks have told me to buy a resistor and a capacitor to build one myself, DIY style, but I might prefer an already made solution. If anyone has any ideas please let me know... |
Thanks dave_b2 and big_greg. I think you both hit the nail on the head. I might listen to the REL's one more time before making my decision. Everyone who I have talked to says the REL subwoofers are very musical. The biggest fear I have is the Rythmik might be too bassy. It was encouraging to hear the F12 Rythmik's sound good and not boomy. I wonder how the REL T/9i's perform with home theater. However, I don't need to hear the windows in my house break to hear sound affects. My primary reason for adding subwoofers is to hear more of what was recorded. The one song that stands out is MIchael Wollney's song Little Person. The first time I heard it I was blown away by the long extended bass in the background. It just seemed to drop through the floor. I just need to be careful that will not break up the floor and sound artificial. I really appreciate everyone's responses. You are all so helpful and knowledgeable. Wow.......there is so much to learn as a beginner. I have already made some mistakes starting out. It started by wanting to turning our museum, the living room, into a room we would use more than twice a year. I thought it would be nice to turn it into a room where we could hear music and HT. We already have a surround sound system in the family room. However, the family room layout can only allow for the TV to be placed in the corner. There is not room to position left and right front speakers on either side of the TV, so I needed to put them on the adjacent wall to the right of the TV. The living room is configured much better to set up the speakers in the right place to image better. When deciding to turn our living room into a music room/home theater, I wanted to find either a receiver or amplifier that could do both 2 channel and HT. I didn't know how to have a true 2 channel amplifier and surround sound system to easily switch back and forth easily. A true 2 channel amplifier was no doubt the best choice for 2 channel. I listened to a lot of tower speakers before buying my Paradigm Prestige 85F towers. I liked the sound, but after my friend sent me an article discussing how a 3 way speaker design is better than a 3 way, I felt I made a big mistake by buying the speakers I did. The Martin Logan Motion 60's ribbon tweeters sounded too harsh and the Bowers & Wilkins 804's lacked bass extension. So did the Focal Aria's. I wanted to buy speakers that were known to be recognized in the audiophile world. However, what speakers are audiophile and what speakers are junk. The one thing I have discovered in this group is everyone is searching for the perfect sound they can afford. However, I am learning by the time you add an expensive DAC, an expensive turn table, speaker cable, you have dropped a lot of cash. All this is fine if you have a wife that allows you to spend the money and who is passionate about music. I wish I had joined this group before I jumped in because I think you all would have pointed me in the right direction to avoid the mistakes. Thanks to all. You are all so generous with your time to share your knowledge. |
Rythmik Sounds like a value but I really like the Speakon High Level connection on REL! Line level just doesn’t get the best from the amp and I’m certainly not going to screw up my mains sound by going through their crossover:(). If I had extra LL out XLR’s on my amp maybe? But then I would need commensurately good IC’s. I had a custom Speakon cable made for a reasonable price, but an equivalent set of XLR’s for me would be $1400! |
@larry5729 When I bought my first Rythmik sub (a used F15) what immediately stood out was how well controlled and "tight" the bass was and how well it blended into the music. No "boominess" like most of the other subs I had owned up until that time. It didn't hurt that I got a nice deal buying it used and that the warranty was transferrable. |
Erik makes a good point. I would also say that the idea behind adding an REL for example, to any 2 channel system, is for augmentation. If you are a music lover and can hear textures, nuance and atmosphere on recordings, then that is what the REL will enhance. Kind of like the approach Walter uses with the Maggie bass panels. If Your noticing the sub in any obvious way, then it is not well integrated. |
Jim Salk builds the Rythmik Servo-Feedback Sub into his higher-priced speaker models. He also offers subs that feature enclosures of his own design and build, into which he installs the Rythmik DIY kit. The enclosures are the best designed and built I’ve ever seen, with extensive bracing, far better than those of Rythmik themselves. They are also beautifully finished in real wood veneers. |
I was not bashing REL. All I can say I just could not hear much of a difference when adding a REL to the mix. I was expecting to go wow when I heard the REL, but they sure didn't immediately think they were worth the money. If you can't hear a difference, why waste the money. This is a great attitude, but I do want to say this: There are many great subs that when well integrated will knock your knickers off. From everything you have described, these subs were not well integrated/ |
IMHO, the whole point of adding in subs is to extend the bottom end response, the ease of the system to fill the room, the ability to extend the soundstage and to aid in the main speaker’s ability in the mids and top end. If you can hear the contribution of the sub, then IME something s wrong! In my system, using two(2) REL subs...it took almost a month to dial them in to the point that they are seamless with the mains, and simply supply that extra something I mentioned above. Personally, in my room I don’t want a sub that calls attention to itself in anyway...and the REL"s do exactly that...once dialed in they are totally seamless. Luckily the REL’s are one of a few subs that actually do allow for this aspect... You want to hear the sub???---YMMV. |
Im sure Rythmik subs are great, so are many others. I think which size sub, how many you get, where you place them, how you integrate / set them up (crossover, phase, volume), most importantly your room size / shape / acoustic properties all play a huge role. Bass Traps and acoustic panels play big big roles. I’ve also noticed that subs sound way better on concrete slab in basements. Execution will get you far in this hobby. Thats part or what makes it fun. Listening to as many other enthusiasts systems will give you a good basis for what sounds good. I’m sure there are many $50,000 systems out there that don’t sound as good as a properly setup $15,000 system.... |
b_limo, I was not bashing REL. All I can say I just could not hear much of a difference when adding a REL to the mix. I was expecting to go wow when I heard the REL, but they sure didn't immediately think they were worth the money. If you can't hear a difference, why waste the money. Just because many like REL doesn't mean everyone should. Sorry if I offended anyone. This was not my intention. I just think a subwoofer should absolutely knock you off your feet and be noticeably different when added. |
Big_Greg: Brian was not bashing the competition. He was just explaining the profit margins build into their business model. Because they sell direct, they can afford to use much higher quality components. He concentrates on the reverberation delivered by their subs. This he said is where you can really hear all of the frequencies a recording can deliver. If you buy a sub that can only extend down to 35 Hz, any lower frequencies present in a recording will be lost as it will not play below the 35 Hz information in the recording. Brian said REL makes a good product, but they are designed more like a woofer than a subwoofer which can go lower and fill the space completely. Wonder what you like about your Rythmik's. |
I have 3 Rythmik subs and am a fan, but if Brian was indeed bashing his competitors in that way, it's unfortunate. Speak to your strengths and what differentiates you from your competition, yes. Bash your competition - in my opinion that's un-called for and unbecoming. I've never owned a Rel, but I've heard them in a couple of nice systems and was impressed. We have a music club that meets at a local audio store and there's usually a smaller (10"? - not sure which model) Rel in the system and it has done a nice job filling out the bottom end in a large showroom paired up with Klipsch La Scalas, Tannoy Canterburys, along with some higher end Paradigm speakers. We met recently at one of our member's homes and he has one Rel (again, not sure which model) and a JL Audio sub and it was some of the punchiest bass I've heard, very dynamic and lifelike. He has done some pretty extensive room treatment - bass traps in the corners, and diffusion and absorption panels, which I'm sure contributed to the quality of the bass and overall sound. Not having ever had a chance to compare them in my home, this may be off base, but what the Rels seem to do well is the upper bass frequencies and to be very "tight", "punchy", and "dynamic". I feel like the Rythmik's give you more of the tactile sensation of listening to live music while still being tuneful and musical. I do think the Rythmik subs provide excellent value for the money, which may be in large part due to their internet direct model. Having said that, SVS has great products at reasonable prices and they seem to be doing well having a mixed distribution model - both internet direct and through dealers. It seems that it is possible to build quality products and build in enough profit margins for dealers to make some money reselling them.. |
“In reality, the cost to build a REL is only about $500. REL manufactures their subwoofers off shore and they use the lowest bidder to manufacture them.” “REL on the other hand advertises extensively. They can afford to do so because they have a lot more profit margins to be able to afford to do so.” b_limo, It certainly seems that way! As I recall, someone commented about Rythmik parts quality and the owner (Brian) went out of the way to challenged the poster. It’s a shame that OP picks one model out of the entire lineup and since T/9 won’t go down to 14Hz, he drags down the brand by dissing the corporate business model. BTW, REL offers 60 days home trial and free returns plus 120 days price protection. |
I have finally made my decision. After a lot of research, I am going with two F12 Signature Rythmik subwoofers. The owner I talked to at Rythmik explained the way a REL T/9i is designed. REL claims this subwoofer can get down to 28 Hz. They test their subwoofers at -6 db. In reality, they are really lucky to get down to 35 Hz. This is subwoofer territory. Orchestras get down way lower. Rythmik on the other hand tests their subwoofers at -3 db. The owner from Rythmik also said he sells direct because he is not willing to compromise the quality of their drivers and cross overs. In reality, the cost to build a REL is only about $500. REL manufactures their subwoofers off shore and they use the lowest bidder to manufacture them. The difference is Rythmik concentrates on the reverberation of sound and that is why their F12 Signature can get down to a bass extension of 14 Hz. This does not mean they are boomy. They are just able to seamlessly create bass extension without the listener detecting the subwoofer has been added to the system. I like most of us probably have not heard much about Rythmik because they sell direct and do not advertise. REL on the other hand advertises extensively. They can afford to do so because they have a lot more profit margins to be able to afford to do so. The problem with Rythmik is you either listen to them at audio shows or you have to take a leap of faith to buy them without hearing them. However, when you talk to Brian at Rythmik, you can tell he understands sound at a much higher level. I compare him to the knowledge Jim Salk has. These two individuals are the real McCoy's. Both develop their speakers to create an extremly flat sound curve. The bottom line is, if I honestly cannot hear a noticeable difference when a REL sub is plugged in, why bother to spend the money. I want to be able to hear all the frequencies a recording delivers to a speaker. I want to it all not just what a speaker is capable of reproducing. If the T/9 REL can only deliver 35 Hz and the recording delivers a bass extension to 14 Hz, the RELL stops at 35 Hz and the Rythmik can deliver the sound the recording was designed to deliver. I am glad I didn't make another mistake with my next purchase. At least I have a 45 day period to decide the Rythmik speakers do what they claim they can do and return them if they don't. What do I have to lose? At least this will give me an opportunity to hear how they sound compared to the REL. I am sure I will hear some interesting responses. However, have they heard a Rythmik to compare? I appreciate everyone's input. You all are more knowledgeable than me that's for sure and I am grateful to learn from all of you. |
