Can anyone hear the difference when you add REL subwoofers when playing two channel

I believe I do.  I have two REL S2 SHO subs.  It sounds even and seamless.  This allows you to play them down in volume and to blend in.  The object is to never detect a subwoofer in a system.

What concerns me is how little watts the REL subs put out.  The T/9i with only 300 class A watts, the S3 with only 400 watts class D and the S5 with just 550 watts class D.  Other sealed subs in the same or lower price range put out 800 watts to 1500 watts.

I wonder how many prefer REL subwoofers over other brands and if they can really hear the difference.  I talked to JL and they set up their subs to change the cross overs to produce the bass and allow the towers to provide more of the mid and high frequencies.  I also talked to SVS and I don't consider them to be of audiophile quality.  I was told REL designed their subwoofers to allow speakers to enhance what is already there.  I would like to the lower bass extension when listening to Michael Wollney's song, Little Person.  Songs with extended bass lines would be nicer to listen to.  

Audioman58:
Doesn't the SVS turn the towers in to boom boxes and throbbing bass?  Did you have the same problem I am having hearing difference when you add and subtract a REL subwoofers when 2 channel listening?  The dealer told me I am listening for the wrong thing, an added bass sound.

When I listened to the S3, I got on my knees and put my ear next to the speaker and it was not pulsing out the beat.  All it was doing was putting a steady humming sound.  Hard to describe.

@mzkmxcv &  @lalitkm,

I have heard a 10" SVS sealed at a friend's house paired with a pair of NHT's and with his Anthem room correct software, I was unable to detect the subwoofer.  I know this is what you want.  He set his sub perpendicular to his right front tower about 5 feet in front.  However, most audiophiles do not consider SVS to be an audiophile subwoofer.  I hear good things about JL, but I don't think I like how they work by taking over the woofers to produce bass extension.  I have heard great things about Rhythmik and their Servo technology sounds similar to REL's Speak On technology.  What I don't want is a pounding bass to drive me out of the room.  My primary focus is musicality, as I probably watch movies in 5.1 Dolby only about 30% to 40% of the time.  I respect your input.

To bstatmeister:

Sounds like you like Rythmik.  Their Servo system seems interesting.  The owner of Rythmik told me the REL's won't provide the kind of bass extension their subs can deliver.  Another speaker manufacturer said the REL T/9i's will be lucky to play down to 35 Hz.  I certain songs play a lower Hz levels, these will not be able to play those frequencies.

Dave_b2:

I wish I could send you a picture of my living room to show you how my system fits into the room.  There is only about 3 feet between the left and right walls (perpendicular to the front wall) and my long stereo cabinet.  If I would put two subs next to the towers, I would have to move my towers a little closer together (currently spaced 8 ft across) and put the subs between the towers and the outside walls.

I have also been talking to a highly regarded speaker manufacturer and he thinks the Rythmik subs to be far superior to the REL.  If the REL T/9i's are rated at 28 Hz -6 db, he said they would be lucky to play down to 35 Hz.  He said this is woofer territory not subwoofer territory.

If I do that, Rythmik makes their E15HP and a F12 Signature.  What size would you go with.

And the saga moves on!

I have finally made my decision.  After a lot of research, I am going with two F12 Signature Rythmik subwoofers.  The owner I talked to at Rythmik explained the way a REL T/9i is designed.  REL claims this subwoofer  can get down to 28 Hz.  They test their subwoofers at -6 db.  In reality, they are really lucky to get down to 35 Hz.  This is subwoofer territory.  Orchestras get down way lower.  Rythmik on the other hand tests their subwoofers at -3 db.

The owner from Rythmik also said he sells direct because he is not willing to compromise the quality of their drivers and cross overs.  In reality, the cost to build a REL is only about $500.  REL manufactures their subwoofers off shore and they use the lowest bidder to manufacture them.  The difference is Rythmik concentrates on the reverberation of sound and that is why their F12 Signature can get down to a bass extension of 14 Hz.  This does not mean they are boomy.  They are just able to seamlessly create bass extension without the listener detecting the subwoofer has been added to the system.  

I like most of us probably have not heard much about Rythmik because they sell direct and do not advertise.  REL on the other hand advertises extensively.  They can afford to do so because they have a lot more profit margins to be able to afford to do so.

The problem with Rythmik is you either listen to them at audio shows or you have to take a leap of faith to buy them without hearing them.  However, when you talk to Brian at Rythmik, you can tell he understands sound at a much higher level.  I compare him to the knowledge Jim Salk has.  These two individuals are the real McCoy's.  Both develop their speakers to create an extremly flat sound curve.

The bottom line is, if I honestly cannot hear a noticeable difference when a REL sub is plugged in, why bother to spend the money.  I want to be able to hear all the frequencies a recording delivers to a speaker.  I want to it all not just what a speaker is capable of reproducing.  If the T/9 REL can only deliver 35 Hz and the recording delivers a bass extension to 14 Hz, the RELL stops at 35 Hz and the Rythmik can deliver the sound the recording was designed to deliver.  I am glad I didn't make another mistake with my next purchase.  At least I have a 45 day period to decide the Rythmik speakers do what they claim they can do and return them if they don't.  What do I have to lose?  At least this will give me an opportunity to hear how they sound compared to the REL. 

I am sure I will hear some interesting responses.  However, have they heard a Rythmik to compare?

I appreciate everyone's input.  You all are more knowledgeable than me that's for sure and I am grateful to learn from all of you.  

To  bstatmeister:

They have them in stock.  You need to talk to the owner Brian.  He knows sound and he created his speakers to hear the space and the full bass extension in recordings without sounding boomy.  Check them out.  I think you will make your decision after talking to him.

Big_Greg:

Brian was not bashing the competition.  He was just explaining the profit margins build into their business model.  Because they sell direct, they can afford to use much higher quality components.

He concentrates on the reverberation delivered by their subs.  This he said is where you can really hear all of the frequencies a recording can deliver.  If you buy a sub that can only extend down to 35 Hz, any lower frequencies present in a recording will be lost as it will not play below the 35 Hz information in the recording.

Brian said REL makes a good product, but they are designed more like a woofer than a subwoofer which can go lower and fill the space completely.  Wonder what you like about your Rythmik's.

b_limo,

I was not bashing REL.  All I can say I just could not hear much of a difference when adding a REL to the mix.  I was expecting to go wow when I heard the REL, but they sure didn't immediately think they were worth the money.  If you can't hear a difference, why waste the money.  Just because many like REL doesn't mean everyone should.  

Sorry if I offended anyone.  This was not my intention.  I just think a subwoofer should absolutely knock you off your feet and be noticeably different when added.  

Thanks dave_b2 and big_greg.

I think you both hit the nail on the head.  I might listen to the REL's one more time before making my decision.  Everyone who I have talked to says the REL subwoofers are very musical.  The biggest fear I have is the Rythmik might be too bassy.  It was encouraging to hear the F12 Rythmik's sound good and not boomy.

I wonder how the REL T/9i's perform with home theater.  However, I don't need to hear the windows in my house break to hear sound affects.  My primary reason for adding subwoofers is to hear more of what was recorded.  The one song that stands out is MIchael Wollney's song Little Person.  The first time I heard it I was blown away by the long extended bass in the background.  It just seemed to drop through the floor.  I just need to be careful that will not break up the floor and sound artificial.

I really appreciate everyone's responses.  You are all so helpful and knowledgeable.  Wow.......there is so much to learn as a beginner.  I have already made some mistakes starting out.  It started by wanting to turning our museum, the living room, into a room we would use more than twice a year.  I thought it would be nice to turn it into a room where we could hear music and HT.  We already have a surround sound system in the family room.  However, the family room layout can only allow for the TV to be placed in the corner.  There is not room to position left and right front speakers on either side of the TV, so I needed to put them on the adjacent wall to the right of the TV.  The living room is configured much better to set up the speakers in the right place to image better.  When deciding to turn our living room into a music room/home theater, I wanted to find either a receiver or amplifier that could do both 2 channel and HT.  I didn't know how to have a true 2 channel amplifier and surround sound system to easily switch back and forth easily.  A true 2 channel amplifier was no doubt the best choice for 2 channel.  I listened to a lot of tower speakers before buying my Paradigm Prestige 85F towers.  I liked the sound, but after my friend sent me an article discussing how a 3 way speaker design is better than a 3 way, I felt I made a big mistake by buying the speakers I did.  The Martin Logan Motion 60's ribbon tweeters sounded too harsh and the Bowers & Wilkins 804's lacked bass extension.  So did the Focal Aria's.  I wanted to buy speakers that were known to be recognized in the audiophile world.  However, what speakers are audiophile and what speakers are junk.

The one thing I have discovered in this group is everyone is searching for the perfect sound they can afford.  However, I am learning by the time you add an expensive DAC, an expensive turn table, speaker cable, you have dropped a lot of cash.  All this is fine if you have a wife that allows you to spend the money and who is passionate about music.

I wish I had joined this group before I jumped in because I think you all would have pointed me in the right direction to avoid the mistakes.

Thanks to all.  You are all so generous with your time to share your knowledge.

Hi mzkmxcv,

Could you explain your response?  Are you saying the SERVO technology Rythmik is using does not make sense and it will cause distortion?  Jim Salk sure doesn't think so.  There is a reason why he has partnered with Rythmik.  He thinks they work remarkably well and they will provide significantly greater  amounts of bass extension.  In reality, the REL T/9i will be lucky to play down to 35 Hz, but the Rythmik will be able to play down to 14 Hz.  If you are playing a recording that plays lower than 35 Hz, then you will not be able to hear all the frequencies the song was recorded at.  I want to hear everything I can the way a song is recorded.  REL and Rythmik have two different approaches.  However I talked to both Jim Salk and Brian at Rythmik I feel Rythmik will be the right choice.  When I buy something, I want to say WOW and not have to question myself when I can't hear much of an added difference.  Again, if the Rythmik sounds like a boom box, I have 30 days to return them for full refund.  SVS has this same policy, which I feel is very fair.

Let me know what you think after you talk to Brian.  Don't listen to his sales person because he did not design their subwoofers.

You might want to call Brian, owner, of Rythmik.  I think after you talk to him you will realize how much he knows about sound and especially bass extension.  

I really appreciate your hanging in there with me.  I think we will all agree we have all been at a crossroads when looking to achieve better sound quality.  I just wish I had the deep pockets some of you have.  You also must have very understanding wives.  Here is another subject unto it's own.  Why is it there are very few women involved in this hobby.  I know of one in this group and I am so grateful for her to be among us.

I still don't know what mzkmxcv is trying to say.  From what Rythmik told me all you need are two RCA cables (one for each sub) which would allow the sub to work with LFE when viewing movies automatically.  Rythmik told me I can purchase the RCA subwoofer cables through Amazon for about $12 to $15.  They said buying more expensive RCA cables are not necessary because I would not appreciate any improved sound quality for purchasing more expensive cables. 

This is a very old discussion.  I wonder how this got started again.

I added two REL SHO's and it was a game changer.

The first time a heard REL subwoofers was with one T9.  The key is to add two large size REL's.  Otherwise, they really don't add much.

I can’t believe such an old discussion started up again.  At the time I first listened to a REL t9 matched with a pair of Vienna Acoustics Mozart speakers.  The Mozart’s already played down low and the small REL t9 was not able to be detected.  Right now I am pairing two REL SHO’s with a pair of Paradigm Prestige 85F speakers.  I can’t believe what the REL’s added.  The trick is to set the REL’s at the correct volume with the right crossover settings.  REL’s high level connection technology is genius.  The moment you can detect subwoofers they are too loud.  They need to act like additional woofers to seamlessly blend in.  My sound stage suddenly appeared.