Is there a point to this? And how is this different from any other audio component? Why limit it to just cables? Audio, like pizza, is what it is. Again, what’s your point here?
Cable design is a lot like creating a pizza
If you look at the construction of an RCA cable it can be very simple or can be very complicated. Eg. Audio quest higher end interconnect cables are extremely creative, the diagram on their website is visually stunning.
Ultimately, Cable design in many cables involves coloring the tonal signature. Cooking a pizza is all about making all the ingredients come together so it tastes amazing. Some do it a lot better than others and Pizza is a lot cheaper.
For cables, There are conductors, drain wires, shielding, Airfilled tubes, different gauges, etc…. Then there’s the copper strands which can be very detailed and numerous and twisted. So much going on.
With pizza you have cheese and sauce and spices and the dough and it’s all mixed together with all kinds of variation. Ultimately the sauce makes or breaks the success of a pizza slice.
With audio cables, hi end Cable designers are endlessly trying different ways to do all this. In the end they find something that sounds kind of nice. They may not know exactly why it does sound the way it does.
So that’s my take on Pizza design and cable design.
71 responses Add your response
It serves to illustrate how ridiculous cable design is. Especially if they can't explain what they've done Beyond marketing rhetoric. This also applies to preamplifiers and amplifiers. And here even more complicated, and many are profoundly confused as to why components sound the way they do. Mostly we are all paying for fantasy creations of clever and very smart creators of complex electrical Devices.
|
OK - another analogy might be better. Cables are like vodka and spirits. We can have pure grain alcohol (maybe with rain water for the Sterling Hayden crowd)…. I would rather that the cable be zero capacitance 0 inductance, and 0 resistance… so it was like the amp was wired to the speaker… and maybe no crossover either. I can then spice it with electronics or a DSP… Basically there is no way to add in distortion with say a preamp, and remove it with a cable. One could add in other distortion to make it more even across the playing field, but what is the point?
So yeah they are exactly like a pizza, and everyone claims that their pizzas are the best. |
...and all kinds of different pizza and varying quality ingredients used in various pizza shops. Results vary quite a bit from garbage to amazing Pizza. Similar situation with junk cable designs with low or high quality conductors, dielectrics, materials and assembly. Some cables impeding the sound more than others. |
@jumia : Ever since Disc Washer brought out their Gold Ens IC's in 1976 wire has become a growing market! I had some Gold Ens. Sounded fine to me! I replaced them with Cotter/Verion Tri-Axials ($30/meter). Still have six pairs in storage. Now use a mix of Audioquest Silver Extremes, DH Labs and Monster Reference. To me they all sound equally fine! |
Maybe you’d be better off on Reddit, then you wouldn’t have to bother yourself with all this inconvenient “thinking” stuff.
|
@holmz : do all pizzas taste the same to you? Serious question |
Wow… just wow. But I have now concluded that perhaps you do not consume alcohol. |
LOL!! That’s exactly what I am doing now my friend. It’s Saturday evening. Am I allowed to? Cheers anyways Oh, and this exactly what you said:
Regardless of what THEY claim, do you have a preference in which pizza you like? Or do they taste the same as long as they measure the same? 🤦♂️😂
|
The Church of Denyin'tology holds to the faith-based religion. ONLY: well practiced at projection and cognitive dissonance! I have Physics/QED (grounded by theory/experiments post 1900) to back what I believe about wires. What’s necessary to understand what happens, regarding signals and transmission lines, is an education that extends beyond H.S. STEM courses (if you even have that much, under your collective belts). |
I just figured the alcohol analogy went over your head, and the user name it had my wondering.
There is a local mushroom pizza with truffle oil and gorganzola that is pretty good.
Let me us another analogy. But maybe an iron skillet imparts a flavour that is different from a copper one.
If one is running mono blocks then the cables get shorter than a stereo amp in the middle, and their flavour diminishes.
Naples and other Italian places seem to make a decent pizza. And there are other countries that have decent pizzas. But I could see how NTC might be better than South Dakota or South Carolina. And I would not expect NYC to do BBQ like other places. |
@rodman99999 +1 |
Making measurable things referred to as faith is a bit of an oxymoron.
I liked to color up to the end of kindergarten, but I moved away from that about the time I went from tricycles to bicycles. (And I graduated kindergarten at the normal age of 5-6.) I suppose if one has bright speakers, amps, or room, then it makes sense to try and colour things with a cable… especially if they are renting, or cannot control the room. |
| Post removed |
@holmz Well, I was talking about the US, but yeah Italy kinda makes good pizza too. And no, despite having a few very good BBQ restaurants you’re absolutely correct that NYC can’t hold a candle to the south when it comes to BBQ. I still stick by my assertion that it’s tough to get a decent bagel outside of the NYC area and pizza absolutely gets worse in the US as you head west or south from NYC. Sticking to my guns there.
|
@holmz - I have no doubt that there are many using cables as tone controls, which simply goes to show: cables CAN/DO make a difference in reproduction. However: everyone I know that uses high-end cables, regardless of position in their system, is attempting to do as little damage to their signal* as possible. *the goal = neutrality/faithful reproduction
The Church of Denyin'tology uses measurements, based on 19th Century Electrical Theory, as the foundation for their faith. |
The bagel situation is not good in Australia. St. Kilda should have some. But pizzas are a cooked up thing. And it equates cables with some alchemy of trial and error with a complete discounting of electrical theory.
@rodman99999 what is the more modern theory that you are alluding to? |
@holmz -
Read my 08:03pm post (that you quoted at 10:14pm) for clues.
|
@rodman99999 The time shows up as local time. Maxwell pretty much defined the theories that are used in transmission lines. But what part of a stereo systems is like a transmission line? |
"It serves to illustrate how ridiculous cable design is. Especially if they can’t explain what they’ve done Beyond marketing rhetoric. This also applies to preamplifiers and amplifiers. And here even more complicated, and many are profoundly confused as to why components sound the way they do." Agree 100%. It’s incredible how much money is made from cables transferring a low voltage audio signal. The recipe and ingredients are constantly changing in order to fleece the audiophile sheep of their disposable income. The more they spend the better they feel. Then there are the common sense, practical types who build their own cables with quality materials that get the job done just as well at a small fraction of the cost. They are often mocked however by the elitists who’ve spent a weeks pay with results no better. |
at first glance these two statements appear contradictory to me. They raise the question as to how do we know that cables are revealing the truth versus adding desirable distortion? Seems like there might be a place for measurement here. once we recognize that there is such a thing as desirable distortion then the question becomes what is the most effective way to add it when it is desired. I would think that DSP would certainly be competitive with cables as a means. If you want to learn more about desirable distortion I suggest you read some of what Nelson Pass has written about his First Watt amps. |
@holmz - Maxwell's equations weren't wrong, but: there's much more involved*, when we're dealing with retaining a plethora of frequencies/voices (instrumental and vocal), ambient/room information (height, width, depth) and placement of the afore mentioned voices, within that space. (iow: much more sensitive info, than what's contained in DC or AC). Even those involved in manufacturing PC boards for more the more sensitive RF systems, take into account the variables involved when choosing materials, as signal speed is dependent on their dielectric constants and possible frequencies to be encountered. We've engaged in this conversation before, so: I suspect your queries to be more argumentative, than inquisitive. Hence: this post is more for those extant, that are genuinely interested in the Physics of what's what with our wires. If I'm wrong: my apologies!
*http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/TransLines.pdf
|
@bruce19 - Some of us have had the blessing/experience of being heavily involved with the production and recording of live sound, in a multitude of venues, over decades. Having recordings that one has personally made, can generate high confidence in one's reference materials. I've never been able to abide audible distortion*, in any system I'm responsible for, or: listen to. PLEASE: save me the, "auditory sensory memory" rhetoric, as that (as regards EVERY OTHER of the human senses) varies greatly between individuals. ie: how hard is it for you, when you answer the phone, to recognize the voice at the other end, even if you haven't heard it in years? *ie: "warmth/musicality", colorations, added pleasant harmonics, etc
|
If I’m gonna spend a couple thousand dollars on some so-called hiend cables I’m gonna need a better explanation of what I’m getting. When I call up a company and ask questions some of these people seem very arrogant. They give standardized rhetoric that never really answered my question. They are being purposely vague they really don’t want to give you a meaningful helpful response. They want people to have faith that their pretty cables Will be fine. I have spent a lot of money on cables. I now have mono blocks, which are a good idea, and really long speaker cables which I bought before I got the mono blocks. So I’m stuck with the longer speaker cables. I am told I would not benefit much if I was to get shorter cables. But now I need a 14 foot interconnect cable which is so much more then a 1 m interconnect. Why the hell are cables so damn expensive? Because people are willing to pay because they know no better. |
Do you HAVE to? It sounds like you are protesting and whining to me.
Again, nobody is forcing you to buy anything. And it sounds like “you know better” than those stupid people who pay a lot of money for those cables. Again, whining, bitching and moaning. Lots of protestations going on here. Relax. Order from Amazon, or make a trip to Home Depot. Your “problem” is solved. No need to be worked up this bad on a Sunday Here, I did the “work” for you: https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-2-Pack-Microphone-Feet/dp/B00KO8VZI4/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2V1401JQ2MBMJ&keywords=xlr+15+ft+cable&qid=1663517039&sprefix=XLR+15’%2Caps%2C67&sr=8-5
|
Let’s pretend that you do not know my motivation for the questions. And that your presenting a motivation is speaking on my behalf, or worse.
In that the author states:
The signals are generally on low frequency, say <20kHz. If these hi-end cables had some measurements, or could show that their cables were different in say a null test, then it would be easier have some confidence that they are different. The ICs for instance are either different or they are not. They have not even shown that they are different. Then people use them as tone controls.
Maybe I want my pizza served so that I can add the pepper and grated cheese myself, maybe I don’t. |
Why? Do you need someone to tell you what pizza tastes best to you too? Read reviews and user feedback and buy used cables at 50% off retail that exhibit the sound characteristics you’re after or buy from direct sellers with nice trial periods. If they don’t work out just sell or return them. Why are you over complicating this? Cables are by far the easiest components to try for next to nothing. Take advantage of it! |
Refer to my post, dated 09-18-2022 at 09:32am (Indiana time)
|
This one?
The electrical signal has no idea about the placement of musicians in a room. And the plethora of frequencies are all <20 kHz, which is not like MHz or GHz, where transmission line theory is used.
Ok we can talk about dielectric constants.
|
It never ceases to amaze me the length these people go to just “prove” their denialism. So much time wasted & spent in researching, typing, and reading this stuff armed with a powerful Google machine, just to claim some audio thing, anything audio, does not work and it’s a waste of (other people’s) money. If that same energy and human labor and time was put instead to practical & productive use (I.e getting gainful employment), they would instead perhaps be able to buy afford, and try the same exact thing(s) they bash nonstop all day every day in all audio forums constantly. Just a thought |
@thyname +1 |
