If you look at the construction of an RCA cable it can be very simple or can be very complicated. Eg. Audio quest higher end interconnect cables are extremely creative, the diagram on their website is visually stunning.
Ultimately, Cable design in many cables involves coloring the tonal signature. Cooking a pizza is all about making all the ingredients come together so it tastes amazing. Some do it a lot better than others and Pizza is a lot cheaper.
For cables, There are conductors, drain wires, shielding, Airfilled tubes, different gauges, etc…. Then there’s the copper strands which can be very detailed and numerous and twisted. So much going on.
With pizza you have cheese and sauce and spices and the dough and it’s all mixed together with all kinds of variation. Ultimately the sauce makes or breaks the success of a pizza slice.
With audio cables, hi end Cable designers are endlessly trying different ways to do all this. In the end they find something that sounds kind of nice. They may not know exactly why it does sound the way it does.
So that’s my take on Pizza design and cable design.
OK - another analogy might be better.
Cables are like vodka and spirits.
We can have pure grain alcohol (maybe with rain water for the Sterling Hayden crowd)….
Or we can flavour it with oak and hundreds of berry types etc.
I would rather that the cable be zero capacitance 0 inductance, and 0 resistance… so it was like the amp was wired to the speaker… and maybe no crossover either.
I can then spice it with electronics or a DSP…
Basically there is no way to add in distortion with say a preamp, and remove it with a cable. One could add in other distortion to make it more even across the playing field, but what is the point?
It becomes an almost impossible combination of adding in distortions to arrive at a flavour of the month.
So yeah they are exactly like a pizza, and everyone claims that their pizzas are the best.
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@holmz : do all pizzas taste the same to you? Serious question
Wow… just wow.
No, of course they don’t.
But I have now concluded that perhaps you do not consume alcohol.
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LOL!! That’s exactly what I am doing now my friend. It’s Saturday evening. Am I allowed to? Cheers anyways
I just figured the alcohol analogy went over your head, and the user name it had my wondering.
Oh, and this exactly what you said:
So yeah they are exactly like a pizza, and everyone claims that their pizzas are the best.
Regardless of what THEY claim, do you have a preference in which pizza you like?
There is a local mushroom pizza with truffle oil and gorganzola that is pretty good.
Wood fired is preferred.
Or do they taste the same as long as they measure the same? 🤦♂️😂
Let me us another analogy.
If I have meal with ingredients (say representing the preamp), and the finally dish that made (representing the amp), I do not put a pizza in the middle to spice it up.
But maybe an iron skillet imparts a flavour that is different from a copper one.
If one is running mono blocks then the cables get shorter than a stereo amp in the middle, and their flavour diminishes.
And I would rather just have the pre amp and amp, and flavour maybe with tubes, and leave out over flavouring with additional layers.
Sorry, but the farther you get from NYC the worse the pizza (and bagels) gets. Although I do admit having lived in Chicago their deep dish is yummy for what it is, but it’s not real pizza. Ehem. California pizza? Oxymoron. As they say in Brooklyn, fuggetaboudit!
Naples and other Italian places seem to make a decent pizza. And there are other countries that have decent pizzas. But I could see how NTC might be better than South Dakota or South Carolina. And I would not expect NYC to do BBQ like other places.
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The Church of Denyin'tology holds to the faith-based religion.
ONLY: well practiced at projection and cognitive dissonance!
I have Physics/QED (grounded by theory/experiments post 1900) to back what I believe about wires.
What’s necessary to understand what happens, regarding signals and transmission lines, is an education that extends beyond H.S. STEM courses (if you even have that much, under your collective belts).
Making measurable things referred to as faith is a bit of an oxymoron.
Back to the pizza.
It looks like a lot of people take a pure whiteDAC, run it into a warm preamp, and use warm cable, and use zobel network speaker cables to play out of a bright speaker in a tiled room.
But it is like a pride flag of filters to arrive back at white.
I liked to color up to the end of kindergarten, but I moved away from that about the time I went from tricycles to bicycles. (And I graduated kindergarten at the normal age of 5-6.)
I suppose if one has bright speakers, amps, or room, then it makes sense to try and colour things with a cable… especially if they are renting, or cannot control the room.
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@holmz Well, I was talking about the US, but yeah Italy kinda makes good pizza too. And no, despite having a few very good BBQ restaurants you’re absolutely correct that NYC can’t hold a candle to the south when it comes to BBQ. I still stick by my assertion that it’s tough to get a decent bagel outside of the NYC area and pizza absolutely gets worse in the US as you head west or south from NYC. Sticking to my guns there.
@soix
The bagel situation is not good in Australia. St. Kilda should have some.
But pizzas are a cooked up thing. And it equates cables with some alchemy of trial and error with a complete discounting of electrical theory.
@rodman99999 what is the more modern theory that you are alluding to?
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@rodman99999 The time shows up as local time.
Maxwell pretty much defined the theories that are used in transmission lines. But what part of a stereo systems is like a transmission line?
Are maxwells equations correct in most settings, but wrong in audio?
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We’ve engaged in this conversation before, so: I suspect your queries to be more argumentative, than inquisitive. Hence: this post is more for those extant, that are genuinely interested in the Physics of what’s what with our wires.
If I’m wrong: my apologies!
Let’s pretend that you do not know my motivation for the questions. And that your presenting a motivation is speaking on my behalf, or worse.
"But what part of a stereo systems is like a transmission line?"
*http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/TransLines.pdf
In that the author states:
A relatively short length of cable shows no measurable transmission line effects for low frequency signals. But if the cable is long enough (or the frequency components of the signal are high enough), transmission line effects will begin to appear with increasing frequency or length.
The signals are generally on low frequency, say <20kHz.
If these hi-end cables had some measurements, or could show that their cables were different in say a null test, then it would be easier have some confidence that they are different.
The ICs for instance are either different or they are not. They have not even shown that they are different.
But let’s say that they are.
Then people use them as tone controls.
What is the point of that?
Why not just have a transparent cable and use a preamp with tone controls?
Maybe I want my pizza served so that I can add the pepper and grated cheese myself, maybe I don’t.
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You are very good at obfuscation.
well done sir.
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Refer to my post, dated 09-18-2022 at 09:32am (Indiana time)
This one?
@holmz -
Maxwell's equations weren't wrong, but: there's much more involved*, when we're dealing with retaining a plethora of frequencies/voices (instrumental and vocal), ambient/room information (height, width, depth) and placement of the afore mentioned voices, within that space. (iow: much more sensitive info, than what's contained in DC or AC).
The electrical signal has no idea about the placement of musicians in a room.
And the plethora of frequencies are all <20 kHz, which is not like MHz or GHz, where transmission line theory is used.
The author in the link you provided below says so.
Even those involved in manufacturing PC boards for more the more sensitive RF systems, take into account the variables involved when choosing materials, as signal speed is dependent on their dielectric constants and possible frequencies to be encountered.
Ok we can talk about dielectric constants.
We've engaged in this conversation before, so: I suspect your queries to be more argumentative, than inquisitive. Hence: this post is more for those extant, that are genuinely interested in the Physics of what's what with our wires.
If I'm wrong: my apologies!
"But what part of a stereo systems is like a transmission line?"
*http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/TransLines.pdf
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If that same energy and human labor and time was put instead to practical & productive use (I.e getting gainful employment), they would instead perhaps be able to buy afford, and try the same exact thing(s) they bash nonstop all day every day in all audio forums constantly. Just a thought
Without any proof if these things working in some better way, I’d rather just sit me arse eating pizza and listening to music.
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Oh great! Then what are you doing in the forums arguing nonstop against every single thing you have zero interest in? What kind of proof are you seeking? Trying for yourself does not count, right?
I like pizza, and might try one for myself tomorrow… but making analogies to pizzas and cars is a bit lame IMO.
I saw “Pizza” in the title and I started salivating before I even heard the bell ring.
With respect to metrics:
- Even the hot sauce has an internationally recognised Scoville rating
- And ales and hops have the IBU (International Bitterness Units.)
they do not just chuck beer ingredients into a pot and hope and pray for the best. They use a recipe and adjust the quantities to work towards an optimum.
If I am running a cart which, for instance, needs some capacitance loading… are we going to buy a cable with a known capacitance/foot? Or select something with nothing defined?
Trying 3 cables with slightly more or less capacitance is different that blindly trying three different cable in a blind mice fashion.
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I don’t know . Ask your dealer?
And we had this conversation before, on your lamp cords you so proudly display in your profile picture: what is their capacitance, resistance, impedance? You surely have measured with your Audio Precision scope.
Why would I have an audio precision scope? and do they even measure capacitance and inductance?
If I was building cable for retail sale, then I would likely have the tools to measure both capacitance and inductance. But I usually buy Mogami wire which have the specs published per meter por foot. As I want to minimise capacitance and inductance I just use short cables. I suppose if I liked the sound of higher values, then I could just use longer cables…
And you are 100% sure their “specs” are the best there is, nothing better out there? Never been curious to try alternatives? And no, you don’t have to be a blind mouse to try cables.
It is the designers who appear to be blind without some specs to define their cable.
And for some reason, you fine lamp-cords folks think we who buy fancy cables do not look at any of that compatibility stuff at all 🤦♂️
New cables are in the post to me.
Both speaker cables, and some silver ones for IC construction.
But I’ll keep the avatar. It shows the system right after a move, when we needed to get it running a year ago. I would have used a coat hanger, if I did not have a spool of wire.
But this thread was about cables being like pizzas, so why the attack?
A cable is only like a pizza if it is all subjective.
Beer is not like a pizza, in that it is made to some objective standards of bitterness, ph, alcohol %, dryness, etc. and the German purity laws date back hundreds of years, so we know what is in it.
Your cables are more like imported dog food or baby formula…
I don’t know . Ask your dealer?
TT fellow said use the shortest cable you can, and a low dielectric constant seems better, and try to use 23ga or larger, and try to find one with low capacitance.
(He sells the TT to the dealers.)
@thyname
I think you made several excellent points in response to @holmz which have so far gone unanswered.
@roxy54 can you point out the excellent ones?
(I think that I missed those.)
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My bad.
Yeah.
It would probably be more productive (i.e. “My Good”) to discuss what electrical characteristics make for a good cable.
However as many use a cable as a tone control, then that gets difficult when it is a tuning device.
And hence the cables are made like pizzas with no specs to determine what electrical characteristics might be similar for system tuning.
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*L* Another forum that starts off cheesy, chills, and everyone gets stuck and strung out....into cable consternation....yet again.
@holmz ...cables as a very subtle form of eq....and brag rights, I suppose.
I don’t make claims to perfection, so feel no need to get involved.....
"If it makes you happy, why are you so sad?"
Nice post Jerry.
Well - for me the unhappiness is that everyone is piling on with “just listen to it” like a “supreme” pizza where the majority of poster are the same toppings..
This could actually be a great thread if people talked about the dielectric and insulation material, voltage biasing, shielding, weave patterns, and even silver versus copper and solid versus stranded cables.
Then we could actually have some adult conversation as to what/how these things might contribute to some sound signature. And whether those things are additive and act in a synchronised manner, or whether some negate the other.
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@rodman99999 am I correct to assume that you place the dielectric constant of the insulation as having a higher importance than the particular metal used?
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