It is often posted that the stratospheric high price of some high end cables is due to the extensive R & D that goes into the formulation of the final cable.
This is just my opinion, but when I hear this I wonder what kind of jobs the posters have/had to think that designing, producing and testing audio cables is a very challenging job. Again, my opinion, but from my viewpoint it sounds like a rather straight forward and mundane task of combining various metals, insulators and connecters (probably provided by subcontractors), to produce a final desired outcome. Even with 1000s of different possible combinations how long do you think it would take a few people to perform? In my world it better not take too long or your history.
I just think that compared to the universe of semi-sophisticated jobs, this does not strike me as approaching rocket science.
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The only way high-end cable manufacturers can continue to be in business is to employ people, whoever they are, to mix together all kinds of strands and insulators until they create a new sound that is appealing that may be marketable. And it continues. Without a new product every year they will have a diminished market because interest also diminishes unless the product line continues to change.
These people with a lot of money to spend are smart people and yet they continue to buy these very very expensive cables. Why is that? They must know it’s not the greatest and smartest thing to do.
I’m all for quality cables but the buyers need to be more careful so as not to escalate a problem that only serves to divert money away from more meaningful endeavors within the audio world.
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I am holding out for room temperature superconductors before I replace any of my patch cords or speaker wires.
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If that same energy and human labor and time was put instead to practical & productive use (I.e getting gainful employment), they would instead perhaps be able to buy afford, and try the same exact thing(s) they bash nonstop all day every day in all audio forums constantly. Just a thought
Without any proof if these things working in some better way, I’d rather just sit me arse eating pizza and listening to music.
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Oh great! Then what are you doing in the forums arguing nonstop against every single thing you have zero interest in? What kind of proof are you seeking? Trying for yourself does not count, right?
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These people with a lot of money to spend are smart people and yet they continue to buy these very very expensive cables. Why is that? They must know it’s not the greatest and smartest thing to do.
Why do you worry so much what other people do and buy. It’s their money, they can spend it however they see fit. For them.
I’m all for quality cables but the buyers need to be more careful so as not to escalate a problem that only serves to divert money away from more meaningful endeavors within the audio world.
Ditto. Same as above.
Too much protesting, whining, bitching, moaning. For nothing. I already told you. Lots of affordable audio there, you just have to look. Let me see if there is anything I can do to help? What are you looking to buy, and for which gear / equipment?
escalate a problem that only serves to divert money away from more meaningful endeavors within the audio world.
Almost forgot: which is “more meaningful endeavors in audio “? Is it room treatments? Like that thread you started a few days ago “bookshelf vs diffuser panel”. You did not seem to like when I said bookshelf is better than nothing, but cannot be compared with a proper diffuser and other acoustic treatments. So I am speechless now, as you don’t seem to want to spend a dime even in most generally accepted “meaningful endeavor” like room treatment. So, what is “meaningful endeavor” in audio, really? Please describe it for me, maybe I am missing something
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Oh great! Then what are you doing in the forums arguing nonstop against every single thing you have zero interest in? What kind of proof are you seeking? Trying for yourself does not count, right?
I like pizza, and might try one for myself tomorrow… but making analogies to pizzas and cars is a bit lame IMO.
I saw “Pizza” in the title and I started salivating before I even heard the bell ring.
With respect to metrics:
- Even the hot sauce has an internationally recognised Scoville rating
- And ales and hops have the IBU (International Bitterness Units.)
they do not just chuck beer ingredients into a pot and hope and pray for the best. They use a recipe and adjust the quantities to work towards an optimum.
If I am running a cart which, for instance, needs some capacitance loading… are we going to buy a cable with a known capacitance/foot? Or select something with nothing defined?
Trying 3 cables with slightly more or less capacitance is different that blindly trying three different cable in a blind mice fashion.
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If I am running a cart which, for instance, needs some capacitance loading… are we going to buy a cable with a known capacitance/foot? Or select something with nothing defined?
I don’t know . Ask your dealer?
And we had this conversation before, on your lamp cords you so proudly display in your profile picture: what is their capacitance, resistance, impedance? You surely have measured with your Audio Precision scope. And you are 100% sure their “specs” are the best there is, nothing better out there? Never been curious to try alternatives? And no, you don’t have to be a blind mouse to try cables.
And for some reason, you fine lamp-cords folks think we who buy fancy cables do not look at any of that compatibility stuff at all 🤦♂️
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@thyname
I think you made several excellent points in response to @holmz which have so far gone unanswered.
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I don’t know . Ask your dealer?
And we had this conversation before, on your lamp cords you so proudly display in your profile picture: what is their capacitance, resistance, impedance? You surely have measured with your Audio Precision scope.
Why would I have an audio precision scope? and do they even measure capacitance and inductance?
If I was building cable for retail sale, then I would likely have the tools to measure both capacitance and inductance. But I usually buy Mogami wire which have the specs published per meter por foot. As I want to minimise capacitance and inductance I just use short cables. I suppose if I liked the sound of higher values, then I could just use longer cables…
And you are 100% sure their “specs” are the best there is, nothing better out there? Never been curious to try alternatives? And no, you don’t have to be a blind mouse to try cables.
It is the designers who appear to be blind without some specs to define their cable.
And for some reason, you fine lamp-cords folks think we who buy fancy cables do not look at any of that compatibility stuff at all 🤦♂️
New cables are in the post to me.
Both speaker cables, and some silver ones for IC construction.
But I’ll keep the avatar. It shows the system right after a move, when we needed to get it running a year ago. I would have used a coat hanger, if I did not have a spool of wire.
But this thread was about cables being like pizzas, so why the attack?
A cable is only like a pizza if it is all subjective.
Beer is not like a pizza, in that it is made to some objective standards of bitterness, ph, alcohol %, dryness, etc. and the German purity laws date back hundreds of years, so we know what is in it.
Your cables are more like imported dog food or baby formula…
I don’t know . Ask your dealer?
TT fellow said use the shortest cable you can, and a low dielectric constant seems better, and try to use 23ga or larger, and try to find one with low capacitance.
(He sells the TT to the dealers.)
@thyname
I think you made several excellent points in response to @holmz which have so far gone unanswered.
@roxy54 can you point out the excellent ones?
(I think that I missed those.)
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I would have used a coat hanger, if I did not have a spool of wire.
My bad. I should have stopped engaging coat hanger folks from the beginning. Totally my bad.
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My bad.
Yeah.
It would probably be more productive (i.e. “My Good”) to discuss what electrical characteristics make for a good cable.
However as many use a cable as a tone control, then that gets difficult when it is a tuning device.
And hence the cables are made like pizzas with no specs to determine what electrical characteristics might be similar for system tuning.
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*L* Another forum that starts off cheesy, chills, and everyone gets stuck and strung out....into cable consternation....yet again.
@holmz ...cables as a very subtle form of eq....and brag rights, I suppose.
I don't make claims to perfection, so feel no need to get involved.....
"If it makes you happy, why are you so sad?"
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Not refering to you personally, btw.... ;)
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*L* Another forum that starts off cheesy, chills, and everyone gets stuck and strung out....into cable consternation....yet again.
@holmz ...cables as a very subtle form of eq....and brag rights, I suppose.
I don’t make claims to perfection, so feel no need to get involved.....
"If it makes you happy, why are you so sad?"
Nice post Jerry.
Well - for me the unhappiness is that everyone is piling on with “just listen to it” like a “supreme” pizza where the majority of poster are the same toppings..
This could actually be a great thread if people talked about the dielectric and insulation material, voltage biasing, shielding, weave patterns, and even silver versus copper and solid versus stranded cables.
Then we could actually have some adult conversation as to what/how these things might contribute to some sound signature. And whether those things are additive and act in a synchronised manner, or whether some negate the other.
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Anyone needing a rationale for experimenting with new cables in their system and/or feeling dissuaded by the Church of Denyin'tology's antiquated electrical doctrines: take heart!
Many new electrical facts have been established in the past 100 years, that support audible differences, between various cables, etc.
I couldn't find anything like, "Updated Electrical Theory For Idiots", but- did manage to find something resembling a cartoon, that even a child could follow. It neither mentions AC/sinusoidal waves in wires, nor does it go into the photon propagation of electromagnetic waves. It does, however, emphasize/demonstrate how Electrical Theory has progressed, since the 1800s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGJqykotjog
The following presupposes a certain amount of knowledge, in the field of modern Electrical Theory. Click, "more" in the first link's first answer, to get it's entirety. Note how it mentions the OLD, "... commonly held misconception that the flow of electricity through a wire resembles a tube filled with ping pong balls...", to which most Denyin'tologists fervently adhere:
https://www.quora.com/Are-photons-involved-in-all-forms-of-electricity-for-example-when-it-flows-through-wires?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_rich_qa&utm_campaign=google_rich_qa
and:
https://van.physics.illinois.edu/ask/listing/2348
It's an established (measured) fact that an electromagnetic wave's propagation and speed, are dependent on the materials of which the transmission line (cable) are made (ie: Dielectric Constant/permittivity). The better (lower) the Dielectric Constant the better the flow and the longer it takes for that material, to become polarized. One reason anything that comprises an RLC circuit (ie: capacitors, cables, PC boards), takes time to, "form" or, "break/burn-in".*
*Something that makes the Denyin'tologists apoplectic.
https://resources.pcb.cadence.com/blog/2019-dielectric-constant-of-pcb-substrate-
materials-and-signal-integrity
and (note: frequency figures in EVERY equation and our typical music signal is comprised of a VERY complex mix of information/frequencies, potentially lending to multiple time smears, if not handled correctly):
https://unlcms.unl.edu/cas/physics/tsymbal/teaching/EM-914/section5-Guided_Waves.pdf
Even the most inane (regarding the Sciences) must admit; braiding and twisting wires eliminates/reduces EMI interference.
That, of a necessity, lends credence to various cable geometries.
That better dielectrics enhance the propagation of electromagnetic waves (ie: your music signal), lends the same credence to choosing cables with better materials (ie: Polypropylene, Teflon, air, etc).
Of course: anything the Church of Denyin'tology's popes can't fathom, they'll summarily dismiss (uneducated twits that they are).
To me: it appears a tad more complex than assembling the typical pizza (and I LOVE to cook)!.
Happy listening and (as Richard Feynman would often encourage): NEVER STOP LEARNING!
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@rodman99999 am I correct to assume that you place the dielectric constant of the insulation as having a higher importance than the particular metal used?
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rodman99999
Exceptional reply above and worthy of great study thank you
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A number of cable construction topics were discussed in the thread linked below. Virtually: everything/every objection any poster could come up with.
Might be worth the review, to anyone interested in the baking of a better, er... I mean: the MAKING of a better cable.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/power-cable-break-in-such-a-change
btw: None of my posting have ever been intended to convince ANYONE they're doing something wrong, in their own listening rooms. Far as I'm concerned: that's your domain, you're the pope in your own home and whatever makes you happy is fine with me.
When I was in the system building business: (though my own taste has always been for transparency/signal integrity) whatever flavor/coloration of sound the customer desired...WELL, my philosophy was, "The customer always thinks they're right!" and it was there to make THEM happy.
I just hate it when those disposed to experimenting with their own gear, are dissuaded by so much uneducated negativity, every time the subject arises.
Happy listening!
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@jumia -
Thanks for your forbearance and compliment.
My only agenda in here, is to help others better enjoy their music.
Whether what's in my reproduced musical events or the pizza before me; it's my desire to savor EVERY component in the mix.
Who the hell craves a bland pizza, right?
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I think it’s very helpful to clarify that cable manufacturers are in the business of producing variations in sound (eg. Coloring).
The problem with marketing these products is that it takes a while for someone to discern whether the variation in sound is something they will be comfortable with. We all listen to a diversity of music plus home theater stuff where variation is all over the map.
To insert new cables and when a change is heard, the immediate tendency can be to like it. We all like change. And then maybe we determine whether the change was good and that takes a while. And then the breakin Factor further complicates and extends the evaluation.
And of course the biggest marketing strategy of all time is positive reinforcement.
There are fundamental basics that are very important to cable production but the marketing Materials don’t really go into all that in a very helpful way. Its proprietary and we can’t reveal what’s in the secret sauce.
It’s a royal pain in the ass to buy cables. I’m using 15 ft mogami w3173 cables between preamp and amplifier with RCA custom connections and they were just lovely. 3173 are not sold the retail because these are thicker cables. And only $150.
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