Considering buying some used speakers from a well established company, e.g., Wilson, Focal, B&W, etc.
Aside from obvious technology updates, do speakers have a shelf life? If so is this measured in overall life, or number of hours played?
I’ve read some reviews that some speakers can really improve with age, no doubt longevity is going to be influenced by speaker drivers. Perhaps paper breaks down before other materials—I don’t know.
Old flagships can be bought for a fraction of their original cost and less than new mid-level speakers. No break in needed! But maybe they would be broken down?
I’m sure there have been numerous threads on this topic, but I didn’t find much in my search and am also interested in any recent experience on the topic.
Would be really interested to hear thoughts, opinions, and experience with this.
Breakups and suspension are the two major issues with older speakers. Suspensions, especially foam surrounds, perish. So the drivers (in particular the woofers) might need at the very least a new surround installed.
Breakups are inherent in the driver design and tend to be more problematic in older drivers as driver design has improved over the years. Breakups cause harshness- such a speaker might sound find at lower levels but get shouty at higher levels.
hey @jnovak - I had a pair of Polk's back in the 80s - I think is was floor standing 12B's. I liked the open tweeter on top and I was happy like you for a good while, until I heard speakers with bass.
Oh yes, I know the Polks aren't the last word in bass response. The Model 10A's are not in my main listening room. I own them because what to do with a 40 year old pair of speakers? I have five kids so possibly one day, I'll hook them up for one of them. Connected to a midfi receiver, they sound pretty darn good though.
ghdprentice - AMT 1D’s have Poly cones that don’t disintegrate and the rubber surrounds are pretty durable, but can be replaced. Paper cones and various other cone materials are also durable unless they have been exposed to direct sunlight and heat. It does depend on the speakers, but my main system uses Altec’s. I still also have some full-size ESS Heil in the guest suite. Both are 70’s vintage and excellent. I would have the crossover capacitors replaced with high grade modern caps.
I think it depends on the speaker. I had some ESS AMT 1Ds that had the cones disintegrate after about 15 years. I have had my 2 of my 20 year old 4 B&W 800 “retaped”. Some of the older speakers may have been made out of material that may not hold up… some appearent ly does.
Speakers do not wear out i have some 73 year old speakers that happen to be the best ones that i own of my many pairs so if they are a quality speaker do not be afraid of the old ones especially if you have a professional type driver in them.
@bjw54
I have a 28 year old pair of Legacy Focus speakers that look like new and sound better then new. These are now in a primary system that costs about $70,000 in a $160,000 room. I intend to upgrade to a $35,000 to $50,000 speaker (used Von Schweikert or Evolution Acoustics) As to the Legacy Signature IIIs in my living room (and eventually will be added to my video rooms when I find more of them under $2,000) I love them so much I will doubt I will ever sell them. I used your quotes because I agree so much. I had to replace the deteriorated foam Sig III bottom woofer surrounds only (the other two have durable rubber surrounds).
Looking at a pro/studio speaker manufacturer like ATC they’re pretty much unchanged and cut from the same piece of cloth for more than 4 decades now, the most noteworthy changes being their newer, self-developed tweeter design, the Super Linear magnets, and some minor aesthetic changes (i.e.: no sonic impact here). If anything they’ve been a constant more or less for almost half a century and an unwavering marker for others to be measured against, during which time they haven’t gone from being the frontrunners over all other speaker brands to being a bland, outdated product overtaken by more "modern" designs (with their ever changing design revisions and new models). No, ATC is doing just fine and being a reference still for many, not least with their active iterations, a clear indication that when done right from the outset a design, at its fundamentals, will retain its pedigree for decades. That’s not necessarily to say a segment of audiophile-aimed "Hi-Fi" speakers haven’t evolved these last decades, but I’d wager this predominantly domestic part of speakers have for the most time worked from compromised outsets confronted with all sorts of restrictive aspects, and therein lies the real challenges to be faced.
A few months ago I listened to a pair of decades old, actively configured all-horn British cinema speakers, and anyone with a pair of ears on their head and some ability to honestly, openly and without prejudice discern listening impressions would be able to realize that this stuff plays music in ways that most domestic speakers simply can’t approach. No, it’s not really about volume only, dynamics only, presence only, ease, resolving capabilities, envelopment, engagement and other isolated, singular aspects, but an overall sensation of being presented to and immersed with music re-vitalized. You’d have to take my word for it, but it’s a fact if ever there was any. And yet in this business we’re to believe the wheel is constantly re-invented, when what’s at the basis of all is missed by many, if not most.
Remember danager the Sinatra-Basie you heard that was so amazing was no ordinary LP, it was a Super Hot Stamper. So that was a big part of it. Still, you are right, a lot of those recordings from back then have absolutely marvelous sound. It is hard to understand how they were able to achieve such outstanding results. Especially since you are right, there is no way they had anything back then to play it back on to know. Not like we have today. Certainly not like what you heard at my place.
There are two main reasons I can think of to explain this. The first is that everyone back then was focused on excellence. All the vocal talent, Sinatra, Torme, all of em, they started off with massive talent and then worked their butts off perfecting it. The result is what you heard, the talent is coming at you like from a firehose. It is stunning, scintillating, the feeling you get hearing Sinatra sing like that. How a human being can be in so complete command of so many different things all at once that they are able to have it come flowing out so seemingly natural? It is just spooky. We have nothing like it today. You know what I’m talking about because you heard it.
This same striving for excellence carries on across the board. Every musician in Basie’s group, every recordist, every mastering engineer, right on down to the guys at the pressing plant. People back then were craftsmen and proud of their work. There are still a few like this today but it is the exception not the rule.
The other main reason is a lot of what we are told is better really is not better. All those incredible sounding records were recorded with tubes. All tubes. No solid state. This all by itself pretty much proves tubes are better, no contest, as otherwise all the best recordings would be today with all solid state. Instead of the opposite, where the very best are still done with tubes. Janice Ian Breaking Silence the liner notes even talk about the special tube mic Janice uses.
There’s a third factor harder to pin down. Did you notice the lyrics? Even the lyrics are at a higher level. No contest. That album, you should come hear the whole thing, it is an absolute gem of a record. Leave you in awe. Even more so than it already did! So even the songwriters were striving for excellence.
Today they are striving for the Benjamin’s. There it is in a nutshell.
I’ve actually heard the MOABs in a home situation and they are not junk. They are big. It’s like having two NBA centers standing in your room (ok I exaggerate maybe NBA power forwards). What I don’t understand is how come music produced over 50 years ago on equipment that was probably made 60 to 70 years ago is far superior to music produced today but today’s equipment is so far superior to the equipment used back then?
There is a reason why vintage JBL, Altec, Klipsch, AR, QUAD, ls3/5a and other speakers still enjoy robust demand (and prices !) today: They sound GREAT and in some ways are better than what is available today. The above mentioned brands enjoy excellent aftermarket support.
5yr old speakers are essentially new designs.
10-15yr old speakers are previous generation designs, in most cases.
With speaker 10yr+ old, I would look for surround deterioration, and eventual breakdown of crossover capacitors. Both are easy to fix.
One issue to consider, is many speakers of the past 30-50yrs used dome tweeters. The adhesives and suspensions in these tweeters seem to wear more quickly than other drivers. Treble performance will slowly deteriorate as the driver ages.
hey @jnovak - I had a pair of Polk's back in the 80s - I think is was floor standing 12B's. I liked the open tweeter on top and I was happy like you for a good while, until I heard speakers with bass.
If you have the $$ get something else, you'll be happy you did. There's a ton of options out there. You don't have to spend a lot of $$ either. I would go the dealer way, and they have closeouts when they change their lines or even drop a color. Then you can expect 40-50% discount. Or they may have a used pair from their clientele with upgraditis that they've stolen them from and are willing to give you some of that benefit.
Capacitors are the biggest thing when a speaker is over 10 years old the capacitors dry out and you can replace with far superior xover parts I have been doing for 20 years now .even $$ speakers skimp unless spending big bucks , even then I had the latest ML ststs and Xover parts average at best even in the $80k flagship using cheaper white Mundorf capacitors fo4 $80k they should have at least Mundorfs best supreme gold silver . not my cup of tea but VH audio Odam caps are top shelf, Duelund great but Waay over priced , jupiter, Millflex very good best resistor sonicly is Path audio from Poland. If buying used for sure strongly consider upgrading your Xover parts it’s the 🧠 or ❤️ of your speaker 🔈 everything goes through it .keep all original values just much better quality ,inductors maybe depending on quality.
Buying used is a good way to buy the dream component you've always wanted but couldn't afford way back when; my problem was that when I revisited those "dream" products later on in life I realized that they weren't as good as what I was listening to today. A few years used (single digits old?) is a safe bet if the units were taken care of. Still, age takes its toll on caps and foam surrounds no matter how well they were taken care of, so be wary of anything older than 10 years.
raysmtb1383 posts06-22-2021 9:57pmI’ve actually lived in this situation I sold some Tekton moabs to help fund a sweet deal on a set of mcintosh xrt30’s. The Macintoshes were approximately 15 years old and I bought them from a little old man in Georgia. The speakers were spotless and they sounded like shit. So I sold them replace the Moab. I’m done with anything old
Hi, sorry, i din’t got the point. You sold some Moabs to buy a set of xrt30, they sounded like crap so you sold them in order to replace the Moabs? Is that a faulty Moebius band? What do you want to say exactly?
I’ve actually lived in this situation I sold some Tekton moabs to help fund a sweet deal on a set of mcintosh xrt30’s. The Macintoshes were approximately 15 years old and I bought them from a little old man in Georgia. The speakers were spotless and they sounded like shit. So I sold them replace the Moab. I’m done with anything old
I think it all depends on brand, condition and where they were used. Six months ago I picked up a pair of 2005 B&W 805’s that were traded in to my dealer. They have the original boxes, jumpers and are consecutive numbers. They were in perfect condition and sound excellent. I think some dealer trade in are a great place to start especially if the dealer carries higher end gear. Chances are the speakers were driven by a good amp.
jnovack, i still have my polk model 10s as well-damn things are indestructible and may still be the best speaker for drunkenly listening to 80s guitar rock at too high a volume.
I have a pair of Polk Model 10's from 1979. I remember the day I bought them. They haven't, to my knowledge, degraded yet. Maybe if I could A/B them with a pair of new Polk Model 10's (impossible), I would hear a difference. The world will never know.
Bought late model mint shape infinity IRS Beta’s and vintage very high end powerful amplification. Speakers have changed but insanely good from the past Is still fantastic even by today’s Standard. All the fairy dust and novelties will not take modern low end and make it anything but that. A lot of BS out there, ask PS Audio to put Tekton Moabs in their sound room…. Delusional
I buy all my gear used and the only negative surprise I ever had was not from the purchase but from Technic and the parent company Panasonic. I found out these companies could give a rats patoot about their customers. A word to the wise never buy from either of these companies regardless how good the product is. The product I got was excellent works fine but if you had a problem good luck trying to get help. I just wanted basic info. like headroom, or does the amp have limiter, what the signal to noise ratio useful information the manual did not have. their phone numbers don’t work or you get a recording sending you to a phone number that does not work one recording got close saying there is a 40 min wait time and if the product was over a year old they were going to charge you some mumbled amount on the barely coherent recording, F them. I’ve dealt with PS Audio, Emotiva immediate and friendly help was a phone call away.
Nope 5 years can even be a current model. Like Revel Ultima for instance. I say 20 year is fine if the money is right. I’ve had 30 year old speakers and they sounded really nice and were original to my knowledge.
I have a 30 year old pair of Legacy Focus speakers that look like new and sound better then new. These are now in a secondary system, but I love the so much I will doubt I will ever sell them.
Well you all have totally enabled me to go forth and hunt for used speakers. Love the idea of a great discount and not having to deal with a burn in period.
Its a complicated area with aspects of both failure and obsolescence. Paper drivers and surrounds degrade in speakers, but boxes and (well made) crossovers ought not. You really need to look at the materials since in speakers it is very much a materials issue. I have three primary sets of speakers - one set ~ 27 years old, two about 15 years old. All work like new - but these are very expensive and made from the best materials. I also had some big brand speakers (incurring mid-line Boston Acoustics) that literally crumbled to dust in about 10 years. In electronics the major failure modes are tubes (let’s not go there) and electrolytic capacitors. We’ll push aside really old technologies like wax and paper. Paul Carlson can rant for hours on those, and does.Transistors and resistors will last longer than you.
As to obsolescence, i have 30+ year old (preamp/amp/related all solid state) designs ( and prototypes) that are, IMO, 100% current. Yea i did some re-capping but fortunately i also over-built them those years ago. I suspect old designs by Nelson Pass, Andy Rappaport, and others still sound awesome. Of course, Andy’s might catch on fire btu that’s the cross we bear. :-)
In the mid-fi area the level of general performance has risen greatly, similar in cheap CD players and cheap DACs. OTOH some old, "great" DACs hold up will iff and only if you add a modern, low jitter front end. Sadly the Schiit EITR didn’t accomplish that very well, so I DIY’d it.
Three years ago i bought a pair of 17 years old dynaudio contours 3.3 for 1200 euro. They sound much but much better as the new dynaudio contour 60 i also own. The 14 years old genelecs i have sound better as the new dynaudio contour 60. Wait wait wait!!! The almost 40 years old bose 505 worth 300 euro sound way more natural and fun and big as the new dynaudio Contour 60. It’s not my personal opinion. And you save health by getting speakers which are already burned in!!! For my dynaudios Contour 60 it was 500 hours which can take one year in normal disappointing listening sessions. Good luck!
My oldest loudspeakers are from the 1920s I have drivers that are about 90 years old that are still working well. But that being said avoid modern loudspeakers over 15 years old unless they are horn-based designs. Standard dynamics used ferrofluids in VC capacitors that drift after 15 years and rubber or foam surrounds that rot. The oil in ferrofluids dries up leaving Metalic particles in VC. Sure this can be repaired but unless you want to do so consider newer loudspeakers or those made before 1970.
My Seas Thors sound EXACTLY as they did when I bought them back in 2004. Richard Gray advised me on upgrading the Millennium tweeters , which i did, and was a big mistake, = out $700, Richard tested the old ones on his ohm tester and found a tiny miniscule fraction of a ohm off,,so I bought a new pair, Out $700 as they sounded exactly like the old ones. I since dumped the Millennium tweets at 1/2 price and will never ever go back to dome tweeters, I use a FR/PS for mids Far superior to all dome tweets. Like the one you have in your speakers. So old vs new, = same speaker.
All I know is this: I bought a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls from the early 80's a couple years ago, and they sound magical; it was the best $800 I ever spent.
I listened to the Tekton Moabs at the Capital Audiofest… in a word - JUNK!
and for the record, I run 40 year old MAGNEPAN Tympani 1Ds that will kick the crap out of most high end production speakers of today (even current Maggie’s).
I have 75 year old drivers that will be here 75 years from now and work the exact same way they did when they were first made.
I have hard wood furniture that is 300 years old and silks that are well over 100 yeas old.
Crossover parts that’s about all that will wear out.. Plastic will even hold up 50 plus years in a controlled environment, Bake-o-lite 300 years?
Ribbon speakers, as long as you can fold tinfoil you can fix them..
I have terminal blocks well over 100 years old..
So what’s gonna wear out? Round speakers? Now you see the problem..
They will last 60 plus. I have Watkins drivers that have NEVER been touched and the BR surrounds are still intact. Infinity Infinitesimals. they will last another 25 years with care.. 7-80 years.
I chipped a front tooth 45 years ago. If I would have fixed it then I wouldn’t have it now. I fixed it with epoxy and my dentist added the final touchup.. 45 years ago.. As a matter of fact it's the only ONE that hasn't been messed with.
Highly subjective. Totally depends on the design, and selection of parts and especially the quality of manufacture. Lest we not forget that longevity also depends upon the quality of care and maintenance. Sometimes, people are the worst enemy of how long something man made will last. I say these things because I have always been a careful and concerned caretaker of all things I purchase. And most especially my audio gear. The exception, of course, pertains to audio equipment that contains predictable parts that will eventually reach end of life and will need to be replaced. The example being, vacuum tube replacement. I for one can live with that.
Bought a pair of MTX Blue Thunders in 1992, 10 inch woofers, still kicking ass all these years later. Purchased a pair of JBL 8 inch woofers at the same time, 10 years ago the JBL surrounds of butyl rubber were shot, they also featured reverse phase, ie. the positives markings were actually negative, a nine volt battery test confirmed the polarity. i now prefer the rolled edge woofers over foam. I have experimented with a variety of woofers from different manufacturers over the years. Cerwin Vega rolled edge, Kicker rubber, and MTX rubber have stood the test of time. I have a pair of EV 12 inch 2 way horn speakers that were born in the late 60’s and still sound good. The vinyl wrap is peeling, but the speakers still work well. Some speakers age well.
Any of the brands you mention in the 4-5yr realm, even 10-15yr realm will be fine and can be had for decent $$$. As long as they weren’t abused or subject to some other nastiness you’ll be fine.
At times I’ve emailed the company that made them to see if they have replacement parts. Some good manufacturers tweak parts so they can’t always be found. Many use stuff that you can buy for $300 and pay $3000. This is a tricky business because many dealers typically don’t want to help with cheap repairs to non retail paying customers. Some in the business won’t support products from a second owner. After some time you see the ones that work and support and the ones that mooch off supply line.
Look at the guy you’re buying them from. If he’s an older fella and he listens to classical music poor Teppy is a young dude who is the head banger I would rather buy from the old guy.
4-5 years… absolutely go for it. I have not often bought used, but did a couple times… high end 4 -5 years old I would just consider, broken in for you. Speakers tend to have very long lifetimes. I have had some speakers for over 20 years and I still remark (last night) at how great they sound (B&W 805, 25 years old)… the source components have been upgraded many times.
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