Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

@fleschler I don't know anyting about ASR but the numbers of people on the chat that have no clue about the making of high end audio is astounding. Just like your comment about PRAT. Can you mix metaphores any more? I love PS Ausio's response to that question. That is like comparing Horse power to tire pressure.
https://www.psaudio.com/askpaulvideo/what-is-prat/

I don't mind a helthy back and forth on a topic but this is nonsense for the most part and just more Cancel Culture nonsense form people that I would like to respect but as I told the moderators, it is getting hard to respect many of the people here anymore. Most of the time  I spend trying to bring some ballance to the conversation and I only get called out and told that I don't even know my own words. Like on this very post were one person told me that I actually meant to say something different than what I said. I think I know  what I meant to say.

@thyname 

This is my last post on this thread. I learned a few days ago from my friend, screenshots of every single post of mine in this thread were sent to ASR. Along with a printout of my LinkedIn page, real persona, photo, current employment, work history, the whole nine yards of my private info. And I know who sent it. It did not surprise me.

That's 5 surprising sentences in a row.

Each one more disturbing than the one before it.

At the very least people should lock down their own personal details as far as they can.

No one should have any right to share someone's else's employment and work history online without consent.

Here in the UK we have GDPR legislation to stop things like that, not that it stops tech giants like Google and Facebook from collating as much personal data as they can.

However, even they are not supposed to share it with others.

If you're certain that this data breach has happened, at the very least you should contact ASR and ask for its immediate removal.

@esarhaddon I have not seen this extensive a critique of ASR and I’ve been an Audiogon member for more than a decade. I am relating my experience and note others including the @thyname’s theft of his personal information by an ASR member with numerous identities. What you refer to as nonsense and cancel culture is exactly what I am attempting to reverse. You are free to disagree but somehow I find your attitude opposite to mine. I DO NOT want anyone to put words in my mouth (that we can agree on) which is exactly what about two dozen ASR members did to my posts, render them opposite to what I intended and clearly stated.

esarhaddon,Has it occurred to you that some people are more sensitive to timing and rhythm that others?That we do not all hear the same?Some people have very poor sense of rhythm.They are bad dancers.They are not the people you would want to play in the rhythm section in your band.Or be audio reviewers.Or perhaps ridicule others for whom such things are heard and are important.

I own many speakers but will always keep a pair of Gale 401 speakers because they excel at rhythm and timing.If you search the web for opinions and reviews of these classic speakers that facet of their sound is very frequently mentioned.They boogie.Or perhaps all the people who own and love them are suffering from some sort of mass delusion?

@jtgofish "They boogie. Or perhaps all the people who own and love them are suffering from some sort of mass delusion?"

 Yeah, same point I've made about Klipsch Heresy IV... they dance.  They're addictive.  I'm a long-time "linear sound" kind of guy, but I like 'em, as do obviously many others... and I've gotten grief from oh-so-wise audiophiles for liking 'em (particularly on ASR)...!  So, your question applies...

@esarhaddon

Is it "cancel culture" that I was thrown off ASR for asking whether a tested piece of equipment was listened to and whether it sounded good?

I don’t now why there should be such an insistence put on tests, charts and measurements when expressing an opinion about audio equipment on Audiogon. This website is comprised mainly of hobbyist who can listen seriously and verbally communicate what they hear, as a means of discourse with others who are doing the same. Sure, there are likely plenty of members who understand the science behind what ASR is doing (but may still disagree with their conclusions). But there are members who are more like myself. Those who have studied harmony, counterpoint, orchestration, arranging, conducting and music history to a certain degree. Who grew up playing an instrument and joined a band in their adolescence. Who attend concerts and recitals whenever possible. These types of personal life experiences are why I comprehend a listening review more than the triangulating of frequencies and mathematical charts. I’ve built sound waves and used charts to incorporate percussion rate, fall rate, attack rate, etc.. before interfacing them with an electronic polyphonic keyboard, so I know a little but my listening preferences are primarily based on what I hear, or what someone else describes hearing.

My father used to build cars before he got a job building aircraft engines. He can explain every part in a car and evaluate whether or not there’s a better or more economical way of engineering it. Today, people like him are usually involved in research. But despite his knowledge, he has terrible taste in cars and I don’t need to know what he knows to choose a better car than he would. Also, he’s always been a pretty bad driver. This of course may not be the best analogy but I’ve personally developed a way of evaluating based on listening reviews relevant to both equipment and recordings. And regardless of what I find in online publications, the best way for me to audition audio equipment is to actually hear it. I’d make the radical assumption that most people who are involved in this hobby can make sound purchasing decisions based on listening evaluations.

ASR reviewed the Benchmark AHB2 power amp and gave it a huge recommendation because it was the best measuring amp they had tested.

Chris Bryant in Hi Fi Critic also reviewed and measured it and although it measured very well gave it a very low rating for sound quality.He said-"For me,when variations in timing patterns or rhythmic drumming are encountered,the musical flow is compromised." and "but it failed to impress in terms of musical involvement,attaining an overall score of just 45 points’.

A lot people[naive objectivists]I guess] bought those amps based on the ASR review and if you follow posts about that amplifier in this forum and others you will see a lot of people saying they bought it but sold it later because it was extremely boring sounding.Some others say they like it but my take on that is they are probably listeners who do not hear timing and rhythm patterns very well so have not, nor may not ever ,become aware of what is not right about it.Even many who have moved on were probably not fully aware of the exact nature of what is wrong but knew something was not right.

This is where subjective reviews by experienced reviewers like Chris Bryant become invaluable and should be taken into consideration by any buyer.

Ok, so I am really trying to keep up here. Apparently, an amplifier measured well on the test-bench and was well-reviewed by one reviewer while a second reviewer reported that although the amp “measured very well,” it just wasn’t his cup of tea.

Based on that information, you concluded that the people who still own and use the well-measuring amp are obviously “naive objectivists” with poor hearing, while those who have moved on did so because the subjective review of the experienced second reviewer is “invaluable” and should be "taken into consideration by any buyer" of this amp.

Simply brilliant!

Not what I meant at all.What I meant was that some people would have bought that amp based on the ASR review without listening to it  [ASR didn't either] and if they had listened some of them probably would have made a different choice.So in that context yes they are naive objectivists for thinking that good measurements will automatically correlate with what sounds good to them.

Here is an ASR member's preferred music and equipment when responding to me two weeks ago (I saved it because I don't think I like any of his music choices except reggae).  

Via PC and APO EQ - Topping DX 3 Pro+ => Yamaha A-S 301 => Wharfedale 12.2 + REL 1003 (REW EQ) On me head: AKG K702, AKG K371, Fostex T20 RP, Sennheiser HD 650

Genres: hip-hop, reggae, ska, punk, alternative rock, trash metal, industrial, 90s techno, progressive techno, dnb, narco corridos, cumbia 

Are these music genres adequate to evaluate audio equipment?   I mentioned that jazz could be more appropriate (I didn't mention classical music or classic rock and pop).  I was scolded for mentioning it.

Absolutely. That’s what boring dacs, amps and speakers are for. Being not colored they can play all kind of music as it is supposed to sound.

If they can't convey the musicality of good musicians then they are coloured.The worst sort of coloured. And boring .That is certainly not how it is supposed to sound.I have owned amps and preamps that just sound like that.A First Watt F5 for example.Nelson Pass usually makes musically convincing amps but not that one.I have heard a lot worse though-like a Purifi Class D amp I borrowed recently.Which also measured really well.

@fleschler "Are these music genres adequate to evaluate audio equipment?"

yes. the music you like to listen to is the music you should "use" to evaluate equipment. 

Story 1) I bought a VCR in 1982 for about $800. By the late 1980’s VCRs performed much better and were much cheaper. I saw a production video in the early 1990s of the making of VCRs and was surprised to see that the process was completely automated. Just a few people here and there monitoring the process and checking parts. VCR’s rose and fell in over about a 20 year period. Product development occurred at a furious pace through the 1980s. And then came the DVD. I don’t think too many people lamented the demise the VCR once DVD and blu-ray took over. VCRs really never had a chance to develop an esoteric market. (Tongue in cheek comment). But the VCR is a good example of how the product both improved and became more affordable. Stereo gear did the same starting in the 1960s with the integration of the transistor.

Story 2) I stumbled into a high end watch store one time in the late 1990s in Stuttgart, Germany. I had on my Omega Seamaster Professional and so I felt like I was a watch connoisseur of sorts. I got schooled that day. Every watch in this store was handmade. I don’t remember prices but I remember they were beyond the cost of a good car and more than most houses. The storekeeper looked at my watch with disdain and commented that it was mass produced. Europeans love their watches and you’d be amazed if you were aware of value of the time pieces many people have on their wrists in Europe.

My point is, VCR’s were a new technology at the time and product development was moving at a rapid pace until the VHS tape was replaced by a better medium in terms of performance and convenience. Automation and cost reduction were key to the increasing popularity and growth of the VCR. Mechanical watches, on the other hand are a mature technology having been around since the late 19th century- became mass produced for common availability and eventually replaced by the quartz movement but still persists as a collectable high end hobby. No one seems to debate the ridiculous prices of mechanical watches that can nowhere match the accuracy of even the cheapest quartz watch- except for my friends and family. Hifi fits into the latter category. For the most part speakers, amps, turntables and even DACs these days are mature technology. They can be had for anywhere from a few dollars to hundreds of thousands of dollars. Basically, whatever someone is willing to pay. It’s about art, culture and a personal achievement in building something satisfying. Like a good watch, or even artwork, hifi is a very personal thing.

I notice that some of the recent DACs and amplifiers made in China look very good on the inside. The circuit boards are neat and orderly. They even speak of the thoughtfulness of keeping analog and digital paths separate and other hifi practices. Notice that the components on these circuit boards are packed very tightly. These circuit boards were designed first for automated assembly and low production costs. "Audiophile" sound is secondary. Now take a look at some high end well known respected audiophile brands. The circuit boards are bigger and much less densely populated. This supposedly makes a difference in getting that special, magical sound. In most cases the boards must be populated by hand.

Another good example are tube amps or preamps with point to point wiring.  They look like rats nests inside but the argument is that circuit boards can affect the sound.  And in some cases these amps sound better than something that looks to be better built and organized on the inside.

Production costs can be significantly higher for products that have much more manual assembly. Is the hand made more expensive device worth the extra cost? That is for each of us to decide. Why let someone else make the decision for us on how we spend our money?

@fleschler

Genres: hip-hop, reggae, ska, punk, alternative rock, trash metal, industrial, 90s techno, progressive techno, dnb, narco corridos, cumbia

Are these music genres adequate to evaluate audio equipment?’

Maybe not so much on here, but certainly on a site that places such overwhelmingly heavy emphasis on measurements.

’I mentioned that jazz could be more appropriate (I didn’t mention classical music or classic rock and pop). I was scolded for mentioning it.’

Now come on, you can hardly be surprised by that, can you?

The folks over there see equipment as being merely a tool to playback recordings as accurately as possible.

The genre of the music would be of secondary importance to them.

A bit like a racing car designer who wants to build the best car he can regardless of the circuits (eg Monte Carlo or Hockenheim) that it will be racing on.

For me personally I would always use some classical music because that’s the best for determining accurate instrument tonality and I would always use pop because that’s what I listen to most.

My approach is not necessarily any better, but merely an attempt to shove the inevitable compromises of any audio equipment into an area where they would bother me the least.

With the ASR approach you are far more likely to get a system for all seasons.

Just so the government doesn’t dictate what we can buy and listen to, I can accept that some rely on measurement to select audio equipment and have their own taste in music. Now, to eject someone for preferring to select equipment through a listening regime seems a bit over the top, but there are many other online communities that don’t censor content.  Ok..there are still some websites that don't shape content.

CD318

Then you might enjoy this one

HAEVN - City Lights

LVNDSCAPE REMIX

@td_dayton 

+1 for: "yes. the music you like to listen to is the music you should "use" to evaluate equipment."

@td_dayton I agree. If that’s what makes the listener happy, only use his music preferences in choosing equipment.

The caveat is that the equipment may only be good for reproducing that music genre and not all others at their best.

Chinese equipment often has excellent design parameters but lacks in execution (I’m talking cheaper audio equipment, not high end). Use of cheaper parts is often used in Chinese CD players I’ve opened up. Sometimes they can be upgraded to higher quality sound just replacing power and filter caps and regulators.  US made Benchmark and Chinese Emotiva for instance uses 50¢ computer grade regulators in their DACs. Replacing them with $30-$50 audio regulators makes a world of difference.

@fleschler re: music choices, we are definitely in agreement then.

anecdotally, i have owned a few of of the highly praised chinese dacs on the ASR list, including the TOTL topping from a couple years ago, and it simply didn't do as much for me as my little $100 schiit dac (topping and smsl sound were both thinner, more "computer-y" to my ears). so i got rid of them.

i don't play in the "audiogon budget" arena due more important financial obligations - my gear is all "cheap" by this site's standards - but i have messed around with a lot of sub 1k high performance (or "high performance" rather) gear over the last few years. and most of it has been a waste of money. for me, for me.

i actually love sites and channels that:

1. cover budget friendly gear on occasion 

2. acknowledge that how it sounds (rather than how it measures) is the most important criterion at the end of the day

3. doesn't pretend that spending more on hifi is always a waste of money, but likewise doesn't pretend that you need 25k to really get good sound

4. keeps the obvious truth at the center of things: at the end of the day, it's all about music and enjoyment 

so for these reasons i like michael lavorgna's site, darko's youtube, handful of others. ASR only meets (1) of the above 

@vonhelmholtz

Now, to eject someone for preferring to select equipment through a listening regime seems a bit over the top, but there are many other online communities that don’t censor content. Ok..there are still some websites that don’t shape content.

Let’s hope so.

I’m still a little disturbed after reading about the incredible lengths in customer profiling that some businesses have to go to nowadays to compete in making a buck.

Heck, there was even an example of where the admen’s algorithm knew of a young woman’s pregnancy before her parents did.

Just by collating their shopping habit data!

Thankfully, we audiophiles are not their main campaign target, that’s usually pregnant women who will need to spend a small fortune to raise their child.

As for the increasing use of predictive software such as Hit Song Science and the like, it’s almost a direct attack upon freedom of choice.

http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=314

@gosta

Thanks for the HAEVN - City Lights (LVNDSCAPE REMIX) recommendation.

I will check it out via Amazon Music this Thursday.

@td_dayton My living room (auxiliary) system cost about $5,000 and does have excellent sound does not have tweaks other than a Synergistic Research power outlet.  No special wiring, breakers, room treatment, etc.  It is a good sounding room with padded front and rear walls, open to the foyer and to a bank of french doors on the sides.  The equipment includes a Legacy Signature III speakers, a highly modified Dynaco ST70 amp, a subminiature custom preamp, a Kyocera 310 CD player and custom cabling. 

For my two 75" TVs, I have a Yamaha CR620 receiver, custom cabling, custom power outlet, a Tripplite power box and MB Quart 980 speakers on one of them.  Just add source components and your in under $1000.

"By introducing some generally accepted scientifically measured reference points we may finally be able to escape from this seemingly inescapable audio maze."

This summarizes ASR's mindset perfectly. And it circles back to the expression: "When holding a hammer, everything looks like nail". 

How can audio be a maze when there's no up, down, entry or exit? Audio is too abstract for our human brains, much like the universe. We elaborate theories with equations and graphs to try to understand it. However, this scientific framework locks you into a mindset which could turn you ignorant to other possibilities. 

"Still don't understand how ASR can claim to be an audio equipment reviewer without actually listening to the audio product being reviewed."

I have a clear explanation. Floyd Toole listened to many speakers decades ago and determined "the best parameters for speaker design". Therefore, everyone who follows Floyd Toole to the letter doesn't have to listen to speakers anymore. The burden of subjective listening is lifted. It's like forming a mould and comparing everything to that mould. If the reviewed object doesn't fit in the mould then throw it in the trash. Repeat. Do you understand how you save time, effort and "error"? 

"A system put toghether from ASR favourites would be very very good. I got one." 

If it's good and affordable, then who's complaining? 

Ultimately, ASR is a hype machine for affordable and mid-fi products. You'll be disappointed by the big performance claims and the objectivity claims. But if your expectations are low, you can expect a pleasant hi-fi system at affordable prices based on the recommendations. 

Just don't interect with ASR. They're very rude (unless you agree with them).

I agree with everything you have said  above Kokakolia.Except for the last sentence.

Rude is far too kind for some of the moderators there.Lets just say their favourite footwear would be jackboots.

I can now understand the problem most here have with ASR. They aren't interested in your subjective opinion on $10,000 DACs, $50,000 speakers, and $25,000 amplifiers and ban you when you can't substantiate your claims  after repeatedly being asked to. 

If you can prove your golden ears with blind testing then do so otherwise this 

Just don't interect with ASR. They're very rude (unless you agree with them).

Is excellent advice. 

We do not have to prove anything.  Subjective is a personal appraisal based on our own senses and perception.  He cannot measure what we can hear, and certainly not with the rinky-dink equipment that he is using.  That has been proven- just not on his channel since it does not fit his agenda.  

His channel is about controversy which brings him lots of hits to his channel which translates into income.  That is what he is about.

Just don’t interect with ASR. They’re very rude (unless you agree with them).

@djones51 Is excellent advice.

Quite so. ASR exists and will continue to do so for those who desire information and education which is demonstrably not acceptable to many on this forum.

Why do people here who have an issue with ASR even bother looking at what ASR has to convey about a product?

Like anti-smokers or a long standing smoker of a range of brands based on their taste or aroma and other subjective qualities maintaining their angst about a site that discusses the best brands of cigarettes or tobacco based on a chemical analysis of the cigarettes or tobacco (there are several thousand chemicals). Of course the best brands site will block you.

And this is an issue? Why?

This is predominately an American forum, and I am not an American so I don’t even pretend to understand.

This is the ASR skeptic methodology;

STEP 1 - Demand X product show electronic test measured proof of improvement.
STEP 2 - If X product does produce such measurements, demand DBT test showing this improvement is audible.
STEP 3 - Repeat step 1.

Amir and his cultists are the real life of the party.

@agisthos Amir and his cultists are the real life of the party.

Exactly, which "party" do you speak of?

I know you can , because you have been very careful in what you feel as the defining the thresholds required by competent engineers.

Step 2 is open to interpretation.  DBT is another topic - not a bullet point.

ASR is fun for everyone. All they really test is low end value line equipment unless a member sends in.

Think he was referencing the Dead Man’s Party.

We do not have to prove anything.

Here or on most forums this is true, on ASR it's true to the extent you don't keep insisting your subjective experience relates to anything other than your subjective experience without any controlled testing to substantiate it which is what leads to bans as nobody there is interested in anecdotal narratives. 

You all need to go back to Amir your fear brain leader.

The world of audio is filled with nothing but anecdotal narratives. Having some measurements doesn't make it authoritative. It's still anecdotal. All you have is some measurements to (hopefully) correlate with what you're hearing. But time and again, it's been proven not to be so.

Anomalies in measurements can point to why something sounds off or bad, but even good (measurement) performing gear can fail to please the most experienced listeners. The audio world is full of tests and reviews of gear that measure well but just don't cut the (audio) mustard.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise + 1 it is all part of the decision making chain. 

How many people on this forum who drank the "Science" Kool Aid and were disappointed will it take for you to understand? 10,100? Most of the discussion on these forums here are subjective. What’s wrong with that? If I buy a new power cord, DAC, speaker or amp, I’m willing to share what I like and dislike about that component. I don’t want to get into a metallurgical or some other such discussion to defend my purchase. Now if someone were to tell me that the connectors tend to fall off of that brand of cable, I might find that useful information- provided they have evidence.

If you go to a movie, you might tell your friends that was a good movie or a bad movie. Do you get into objective, defensible suppositions about the cinema photography, or length of scenes, etc? Or if you say that movie was fast paced and had  lots of action, do your friends expect you to quantify that and benchmark it against another movie? Probably not unless you are in film making school.

Why is it that I can watch Danny’s videos? He does measurements too. But since he has been in the business and designs and builds products, he knows something about of which he speaks. He can explain why and how he makes measurements and then does teardowns to help explain why a product should sound good or just average.

I research before I buy. Having been burned decades ago by the low cost, "giant killers" I stay with the more established reputable brands. Does that mean I always get the best component for my money? Perhaps not but Caveat Emptor applies today just as it did a couple of thousand years ago.

What is the relevance of those Pink Panther figurine's on the ASR site? 

@jerryg123 

Most of the discussion on these forums here are subjective. What’s wrong with that?

Nothing, but the thread is a long complaint about ASR bans of people who insist their forum conform to subjective opinions.

you go to a movie, you might tell your friends that was a good movie or a bad movie.

And everyone has an opinion of the movie, that’s what this forum is for, ASR isn’t interested in movie reviews but whether the video and audio equipment was engineered competently to reproduce the movie as intended.

Why does every forum need to be about subjective reviews?

His channel is irrelevant.  It has little to do with science.  He satisfies the needs of a few followers who want to believe expensive hifi is a sham.  In the same vein as flat earthers and people who don't believe men walked on the moon.

This says a lot about these ASR people.

A pole rating a pair of Vandersteen speakers and none of these people have listened to them. Pure Subjective Opinion based on measurement’s by a _____.

Vandersteen VLR Speaker Review | Page 15 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Why bother listening to speakers with such bad measurements? In a world full of good ones. But seems some really did take their time.

if you trust what Amir is reporting. I for one do not. 

According to asr, if two wires measure the same, then they are the same.  If two amplifier’s put out ten watts, then they are the same. And when I saw him
doing an interference test on a power cord that was not plugged in, I shook my head and have never gone back.

And when I saw him
doing an interference test on a power cord that was not plugged in, I shook my head and have never gone back.

Interference Test of power cable not plugged in. 

I find it hard to believe when someone sells the speaker they own and purchase a loudspeaker that has certain tweeter and midrange/woofer spec, assuming that it will sound good!!! Why? Because it probably measures well. And this is the science type, on this thread.

It took me 2 years and many a dealer/AXPONA visits to identify a speaker that I really liked. There were many $$$$ loudspeakers that I auditioned but I did not like some trait or the other. Finally landed on what I currently have. Of course this was using my own sense of hearing. I am sure, I approached it completely wrong, per ASR folks (I think).

@noske  Exactly, which "party" do you speak of?

It's an ironic figure of speech common in the English language. Someone who is referred to as the 'life of the party' is the opposite - they are sour, dour and bring the energy down in any conversation.

i.e all the 'I have an EE' curmudgeons found on audio forums just waiting to tell us how all amps sound the same and speakers should only be purchased by looking at their measurement charts.

Sensitive topic for sure. As someone once said (not sure who?) “Everyone Relax. There has never been a HiFi emergency.”

That said I do know someone who had a demo Dan D’Agostino amp catch fire due to a suspected rare component incompatibility. So maybe the quote is not quite true. There is also the time my 180 pound speaker toppled over and almost crushed me.

Back on topic. I am firmly in the camp of using ears. But I do agree with Amir’s take on the value of blind tests. I do them whenever possible. Confirmation bias is real. I’ve caught myself being a victim of it, which is why I typically torture myself questioning my perceptions, and the nature of reality, sometimes going to the brink of insanity. Pushing through I have always felt I’ve arrived at a conclusion I believe to be real with every test requiring time and multiple listenings and system tweaks to reach proper conclusions. It’s a LOT of work to get there.

Amir actually helped me through his takedown of the Chord M Scaler. I decided not to proceed with this piece in my system not because of his conclusions, but because his review prompted a response from Rob Watt, Chord designer. Rob confirmed Amir’s assertion that the devices jitter was rather high, and that it was due to the component that enabled the degree of upsampling the device offers. He said it didn’t matter with Chord DACs which deal with the jitter. But said he couldn’t speak to other DACs which may not deal with jitter as well. Rob said the M Scaler is not really for use with non-Chord DACs, and I use a non-Chord DAC. Of course the best would have been for me to try one, but I was considering buying used online so that wasn’t an option. I also use an Innuos PhoenixUSB to reduce jitter, so I think the M Scaler would simply re-introduce the jitter removed by the PhoenixUSB.

I see no issue with ASR existing; we can chose whether to listen to Amir or not. And even though I disagree with his philosophy, in a roundabout way he helped me.

To me anyone with a critical mind to this business that tries to sell so many fairy tails is very welcome.

What if the "critical mind" is selling fairy tales? You get people buying fairy tales, In Amir's case he asks for the money in every "fairy tale" he puts on his site.