Are manufacturer AC cables good enough?

I am reasonably sure Charlie ( founder of Ayre and an engineer with ears ) is laughing in heaven tonight.....

I suspect you're right.  

I haven't looked at this thread recently.  I'm amazed by how it's grown.  Glad I didn't ask about something controversial like MQA.

now that you're back dbphd, have you compared the power cords?

Not yet.  I'm in the process of moving stuff from one rack to another.

dowjones wrote:

" Electricity runs for miles through steel/aluminum wire hits the transformer for your house steps down and comes through the meter, panel, feet of regular copper wire, receptacle then gets to the magical power cord that changes something or the other then goes through a filter in the amp, another transformer, regular 12 or 14 gauge wire in the amp but through this whole thing it’s that few feet of magic wire that adds those wonderful inky black background, open soundstage , voices floating in front of the speakers and pianos beside your couch"

I couldn't agree more. If your system has the resolution & your hearing is at least average, a high end aftermarket power cord can greatly improve the sound quality.   

Pretty sure that "electricity runs for miles.... then gets to the magical power cord..." is his sarcastic way of trying to say something without ever having to, you know, come out and say it. 

Since he's afraid, or more likely simply hasn't thought it through, what he's trying to say is those last few feet can't possibly matter. Or the other way he might like to put it, if he would actually put it instead of sniping, you'd have to replace all the wire to the dam. Both of which seem to have a grain of truth even though they are ultimately misleading.

Its true every foot matters. Might even go all the way back to the dam for all I know. It certainly goes as far as the drop line. And according to a couple very reliable listeners it goes as far out as the neighborhood transformer. 

Of course the 5 ft of power cord matters. There's nothing magical about it at all. Its simply that some amount of degradation happens every inch of the way. Minimizing it for 5 ft is an improvement. I've done that in stages all the way back to the step down transformer, then to the panel, then the panel itself, and the meter. Others like I've said have gone even further. For every foot you do the sound improves.

People wonder and get triggered and argue when I say how fantastic it sounds. But you know what? Its only the people who haven't tried these things that get all worked up. The ones who've done it, we all know. 

Interesting. What would be the shortest power cable length that matters?

Depends on your equipment and ears, for me myself I have heard a phenomenal increase in sound quality using various models of cables by Mad Scientist Audio(New Zealand) and their prices aren’t in the stratospheric range as some are.

Of course aftermarket power cords matter.

They matter to those who sell them and those, like myself, who have spent good money on them.

Yes, they also make a significant difference to the sound. Or at least I thought they did after initially plugging them in. Heck, I even went to the great trouble of rewiring my Sony MiniDisc player.

After years of being taken in (and scammed) I'd now say they make bugger all difference to stock leads.

The relationship between vision and audio (or any) expectation is well known. For example I tried listening to two identical pieces of music - one with some visual stimulus eg an LP/CD/album art/ video and the other without.

Every time I did this I felt a strong compulsion to prefer the one accompanied by visual stimulus. I'd recommend anyone trying this for themselves just to familiarise themselves with this strange phenomena.

This, despite what they might say, is the main reason blind testing is so frowned upon by those marketing such products.

A similar thing happens if you clean all the contacts in your audio chain. Initially you will 'hear' improved clarity but very soon after this newfound clarity tends to strangely evaporate. Expectation bias, a likely cousin of the placebo effect, definitely exists.

Tricks of perception have been documented for decades and used in marketing for much much longer.

As Cain said to Abel....

When logic and science fail you what's left? Oh yeah, your system is junk and you're deaf. If it makes HUGE,SIGNIFICANT. Etc... differences then it can be quantified if not read cd318 post or better yet get a book on psychoacustics.

dbphd

No- your thinking is not flawed nor would Ayre supply a PC that under performs it's gear. Regarding aftermarket PC, I tested the stock Ayre vs Audioquest Tornado model. The sonic difference between those PCs were not that far apart to my surprise. Of course, moving up any aftermarket PC chain would widen the sonic gap. Performance and price-point in effect. Charlie,  is certainly having a good laugh.

Happy Listening!

djones51

When logic and science fail you what's left? Oh yeah, your system is junk and you're deaf.

Ironically, that statement is a non-sequitur, a logical fallacy.

I have always been amazed - but I shouldn't be - at how confused so many audiophiles are in regard to systems. Many of these posts read as guidance for "How to build a mediocre audio system".  :(

Then again, given the inherent irrationality/contradictions of Darwinism, and how many people uncritically accept that despite it's being scientifically falsified (insofar as soft science can be), it's no wonder they can't figure out how to advance an audio system to its full potential.  

I'm not interested in arguing about my perspective.  

I learned a long time ago that feeding the trolls is bad. It empowers them. And yet, I keep doing it. I should not. 

Then again, given the inherent irrationality/contradictions of Darwinism, and how many people uncritically accept that despite it's being scientifically falsified (insofar as soft science can be),

 For some reason I'm not amazed. I assume you question gravity as well being only a theory or are you in the intelligent falling theory camp? 

You should know all about trolls, they put the magic in your wires.

Let me blunt: I will no longer feed YOU

The tweaky magic stuff allows you to share the experience of visiting your dealer to talk about your hobby.  It makes you happier, so you believe it works. This is a great marketing plan, because every time you visit the store, is a selling opportunity for new equipment.. 

Do you mean smoke a blunt? 

I don’t turn my nose up at a placebo or expectation bias, as long as it improves the sound.

danvignau,

"The tweaky magic stuff allows you to share the experience of visiting your dealer to talk about your hobby. It makes you happier, so you believe it works. This is a great marketing plan, because every time you visit the store, is a selling opportunity for new equipment.."



Yes it does work for some, the same way that hypnosis, placebo and optical illusions do. Unfortunately all of these phenomena only have short term temporary effects.

Otherwise we could all escape our earthbound existence to live in our illusions indefinitely. Attempts to do so via audio style retail therapy are also inevitably doomed to failure unless we can make genuine lasting improvements to our playback experience.

I remember reading that Paul McKenna (well known UK hypnotist) confessing how he once hypnotised his partner into believing that he was a fantastic lover but to his regret (and possibly hers) the effect of this trance like state could not be maintained indefinitely.

Lasting satisfaction, on the other hand is not something many of us audiophiles easily find.

I’m probably the closest to it currently as I’ve ever been. It’s now about 6 years since I’ve made a component change to my system (Creek Destiny integrated amp which has considerable more power than its predecessor), and 10 years since I replaced my Ruarks with the Tannoys.

So do I still want better sound playback? You bet I do! My love for music is as strong as it was ever was. Two days ago I couldn’t get Dylan’s Senor out of my head, yesterday it was R.E.M.s Losing My Religion - very weird as it’s not one of my favourites by them.

However, I’m also far more wary and suspicious than I once was.

As they say ’Once bitten, twice shy’.

Although to say only once bitten in my case would be a seriously gross denial.

Nowadays another adage spring to mind,

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.

Ok, ok, give or take a dozen or so times. It wasn’t all my fault, I am an audiophile. Albeit a thoroughly shamed one at that.

Power cord must be:

1.UL rated
2.Originally supplied, or meeting same specs as original
3.Long enough to reach your units easily ie. no tension
4.Connected to a good quality surge protector (unless your stereo is a cheaper crap than the power cord itself ;) )

Not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic. Tone of voice and humor can be difficult to convey on the computer screen. But I'll address each of your points.

1. Most aftermarket cables aren't UL listed because the certification process is costly. UL standards helps ensure mass produced cables meet minimum safety requirements for fire safety and electrical shock protection. It is a risk management tool for very large corporations. Low volume, boutique cables cannot justify the expense of a UL listing. That doesn't mean their build quality or safety is sub-par. 

2. Which specs? Same LCR? Same quality and type of conductor material, number and gauge of conductors, layup design geometry, filling interstices, tape barrier, mechanical and electrical shielding, outer jacket? What about connectors?

3. This is a huge variable from system to system. Which is one reason why aftermarket cables are prolific. 

4. I know many people who run amps directly to the wall receptacle w/o any surge protection devices. Some more experienced friends' systems use whole home surge protection device installed at the main electrical service panel or a sub panel. They're not cheap. Many of my hifi friends use that in addition to dedicated 20 amp circuits for each device, quality receptacles, balanced power transformers or AC regeneration devices like PS Audio Power Plant. Most would agree that MOV based surge protectors do the sound quality no favors.

Most would have no clue how MOVs work or appear in the circuit because they would know that effectively when there is no surge, the MOV is would be doing nothing that could impact sound. Now if you mean inductors which are often in surge protectors, then yes you could argue an impact. Whole home surge protectors are usually just a bunch of MOVs in a box perhaps with GDTs depending on where you are.


Most of those construction details you listed are relatively meaningless (except shielding) except on a marketing sheet and express themselves as LCR. That giant filter, I mean power transformer in the equipment is going to be dominant by far for power delivery. The next variable would be ground continuity between equipment and finally shielding.


Absent any real knowledge or information reasonably intelligent people will make up all kinds of "ideas" to support their preferred view. It's not just cables, have a gander at the MDF, Plywood (which extends to aluminum and solid wood) discussion, or discussions about sound stage made without even a basic understanding of how we perceive position or acceptance of basic geometry.

The hypothesis is (whatever the particular wire, tweak, etc); that a change (good or bad) can be heard.     If one desires to apply, "science", to an agenda, regarding their listening enjoyment; experimentation is an absolute requirement.     iow: One must actually TRY, whatever’s being discussed, with their own ears, in their own system.      The electrical/electronic variables, as well as biases and/or aural acuity, are too myriad to calculate.      As one notable Physicist, theorist and Nobel Laureate (popular, for his lectures on QED) is usually quoted, " It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are.    If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong."       THAT’S, "logic".

Experimentation in science requires more rigour that almost all audiophiles ever subject themselves to. Every change can't and isn't "night and day", though so often that is exactly what is reported due to confirmation bias and nothing else. Absent knowing the change, audiophiles can rarely with any accuracy identify a cable change which blows that whole "night and day" claims out of the water. Meanwhile they are still "trusting their ears" while having no clue about their room response, nor dealing with the acoustic issues far worse than any cable.

 As one notable, Physicist, theorist and Nobel Laureate is usually quoted, " It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong."      THAT’S, "logic".

Who is this notable Nobel Laureate? I doubt very seriously if his criteria for experiment is put a cable in a system sighted and proclaim the sonic superiority of the cable. Physicists, theorists and Nobel laureates use stringent criteria for experiment. 

Too lazy to copy/paste something, in your search bar?     Typical naysayer, to ignore something so simple!      If he ever owned a sound system, I have no doubt, he’d have EXPERIMENTED with it!       Your ilk is an embarrassment, to the scientific community, not to mention: a waste of keystrokes. https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/richard_p_feynman_160383

@freedomgli and @rodman99999 : stop feeding the Troll. You will get nowhere. It will continue to be a circular argument going nowhere and you will accomplish nothing but empower him on his anti-audio hobby

Come on, guys. All you need to solve this sticky problem is a Poet Laureate and ten consecutive controlled blind tests. 🤗

The embarrassment is in using a scientist to support unscientific nonsense. Let's  use Feynman, in your words tell why does a $ 1000 power cord sound different than a $10 power cord of equal gauge? 

You have a beautiful theory.  Expensive aftermarket power cords improve the sonic ability of the component. Now tell us about the experiments used that agree with the theory? Did any of them disagree with the theory? Could the theory be falsified? If so how? 

I have no doubt, he’d have EXPERIMENTED with it!

      
I have no doubt the experiments would have been scientific experiments where variables are controlled. If you dismiss the scientific process why corrupt the memory of a scientist to support unscientific blathering?

I find it rather funny that people who claim that those who hear no differences "have obviously never done the experiments". Does it ever reach consideration that they did do the experiments, rigorously, and properly, and that is why they have proven to themselves a lack of difference?   

djones51, Neil deGrasse Tyson admits that gravity can't be explained! Interesting.....

But we can do experiments showing gravity exists. I am not sure he said gravity can't  be explained perhaps it was we don't really know what gravity is? We can explain the affects of gravity but what it is made up of, gravitons? Who knows. 

Everything you never wanted to know about the thorny subject of gravity is contained in this book, pub. 1973. Authors Misner, Thorne & Wheeler. Big guns. That was the golden age for gravity and black holes, following the success of the A-Bomb and H Bomb, you known, those guys had to find something to do.

https://www.amazon.com/Gravitation-Charles-W-Misner/dp/0691177791/ref=nodl_

Well if I could figure gravity out and unify it then I will accept my "Noble" prize when the pandemic is over if I am still alive. 

Here’s a quick explanation. Imagine spacetime is a big mattress and all the heavenly bodies are about the size of golf balls and oranges and sitting on the mattress. If you place a big heavy bowling ball on the mattress those heavenly bodies closest to the bowling ball will slide down a little bit toward the bowling due to the depression caused by the bowling ball. That’s what gravity is, the curvature of spacetime due to very heavy objects. It all stems from the General Theory of Relativity.

Also interesting that NASA just realized that our atmosphere extends beyond the moon......           think about that one guys.

No, that is just a theory of gravity.

That’s what gravity is, the curvature of spacetime due to very heavy objects. It all stems from the General Theory of Relativity.

Oh, I get it, you’re one of those guys who thinks nothing is real, only theoretical. Good grief! You realize they’ve proved this “theory,” don’t you? Or don’t you believe in proof either? 🤗

Other than NGT being a popular scientist but no where near the leading expert, there is a big difference between being able to explain how something works and knowing it exists and being able to observe it's effects or measure them in fine detail. It's the same false argument against evolution, that because we call it a theory, because we don't absolutely know all the mechanisms, that that some how means it "doesn't exist". That is not at all what it means.

djones51, Neil deGrasse Tyson admits that gravity can't be explained! Interesting.....

So in 1969 a phone connection from White House to the Moon surface truly occurred? That must have been an expensive long distance charge!!!!  

No that was fake. The line, One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind, was the idea of Stanley Kubrick’s wife. It was spoken by Neil Armstrong on the unused set of 2001 A Space Odyssey while filming the lunar landing sequences. 

I think Nixon called some guy in a gas station in Utah.

Bebe Rebozo  🤥

Tricky Dick. Funny,  Bill Clinton shares the same nickname!

Never said gravity couldn't be explained.     The amount of gravity, throughout this universe, has not yet been explained.      I cited a number of the theoretical attempts at an explanation.     Jones brought up Einstein's Cosmological Constant.     I mentioned it sought to account for the amount of gravity, throughout this universe.      He added that, in his Math, believing in a stationary universe, in keeping with that time's understanding of Physics.    Anyone, with even a minimal grasp of Einstein's General Relativity, would have understood that point.          

Yes they are good enough for most use.

But 500$ cables makes significant difference if your system is revealing.

I had tried 2k$ power cable in my system.

It makes sound slightly more refined and detailed than 500$ Synergistic Blue power cable.

But I am not willing to pay 4 times of money especially I need around 10 power cables.

Analysis plus also make decent cable at around 500$ which sound more relaxed while Synergistic blue sound more detailed.

Thomas