Those people agree with me 100%. They have decided vanilla and chocolate together is better than vanilla or chocolate. I agree with them. They agree with me.
Now would you like sprinkles or nuts?
Now would you like sprinkles or nuts?
Are manufacturer AC cables good enough?
I have two PS Audio AC3 and two Pangea AC 14 cables I don't use. My thinking is that Ayre wouldn't supply cables that are inadequate for their components. Is that thinking flawed?
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Yes, I believe that thinking is flawed. Most stock power cords are junk. MFG’s anticipate that you will be using a higher end power cord with their product. They don’t include a good one because it would increase the retail price of their product when compared to competing units that don't include a higher end power cord...which none do to my knowledge. |
Of course subjective listening and opinion is vital too, but equal measure of science is often overlooked. There is a difference between "subjective listening " and "subjective measurements " the former can be dismissed the later is used along with "scientific measurements" in evaluating whether something has an actual effect. |
If Ayre whose top line amplifier sells for around $35,000 tosses in junk power cords then I think I'll look elsewhere for a company that's tested all the parameters that can diminish the performance of their products. For that kind of money I expect a good power cord whose measurements equal or better anything put up against it. |
PLACEBO EFFECT: The more you spend, the better it sounds. We trust the designers and manufacturers to make really good equipment. Would they really sell something as cheap to make as a power cord if it made their great design sound worse? It takes three months to break in. NO! It takes as long as three months for your credit card to automatically refuse a refund. Dealers like profit and reason for you to keep visiting. An expensive power cord is about as effective as the Scotch Guard on my Tacoma seats that I was charged for. The unused can of Scotch Guard was in a storage compartment, to be found months later. If an amp has a crappy power cord, what other cheapness is in the unit? |
My impression is that the folks at Ayre listen to and test their products very carefully. My one interaction with Charles Hansen convinced me he did. Ayre manuals recommend balanced rather than single-ended connections and often give other guidance about what they consider best practice, but nowhere in one of their manuals have I come across a recommendation to try another power cord. I think I answered my original question, but I'll try the AC3s with the preamp and amp just to be a good empiricist. |
No doubt there are many of you who have decided that throwing money at a power cord is a necessity. I almost did the same...almost. I was later told (by someone in Binghamton) that McIntosh power cables are specifically designed/included with their gear and that there is no need for aftermarket. I was advised to use the money for more music or other components. I took the advice.No Kool Aid here. |
I wonder how many of the nay sayers who claim power cables do not make a difference have even tried upgraded PC's? To me, they either have not tried or can not hear. And it is usually them who cite science to explain away any possible benefit. I certainly did not want to hear the difference I did, it would have saved me money. I did try and I did hear...and not subtly. I have dedicated 20 amp lines, and upgraded outlets. I still heard better music with better cables. Maybe audio manufacturers should take the approach of auto companies. They could sell a DX model, a GX, and a GXL. The base model would have cheap cords, cheap feet, less expensive connectors and a dull faceplate. The GXL would come with vibration absorbing feet, better connectors, a nicer faceplate and a metal vs plastic remote. Then everyone could be happy! Certainly folks who drive eco model cars think they are just as good as the nicer version, and don't appreciate the grippy tires, added horsepower, bigger brakes and navigation! |
I went to such a test. About 50% picked the more expemsiver power cord. We did find a difference in interconnects, but only the very cheapest were picked very often as the worse of a choice. The others were about 50-50, with mostly guessing. There was never a consensus, except for the decades old, cheapest crap from Radio Shack. Basically, any cord with oxygen free copper was deemed somewhat better, but that could simply mean they were put together better, or had better insulation, etc. One exception: If your power cord runs parallel to your interconnects, or even crosses them, better insulation/grounding might help. |
I did try and I did hear...and not subtly.If you did not try in a blind controlled test then you're just offering subjective biased opinion.We ALL have subjective biased opinions when it comes to seeing and hearing the only way to know if something actually works is to remove the biases as much as possible. One of the best examples of conducting an ABX test is done by Floyd Toole when he was at Harman. It's controlled by computer and the results from blind compared to sighted is very revealing. It's and hour long if you care to watch it. https://youtu.be/zrpUDuUtxPM |
I run a Lindemann, PMC, JL Audio system. Recently upgraded all my power cables to AQ and NRG. Was anticipating a big audio improvement. There was a slight improvement I believe when I switched back and forth between the stock and after market power cables. Not the "Massive improvement" toted by the cable manufacturers and testers of those products. Although there is a huge difference in the quality of the cables look and build. The NRG cable is truly a work of art so I am happy. |
“No, different means different. Whenever two things are different one is of necessity better, the other worse.” This statement is wrong. Vanilla and chocolate ice cream. Bordeaux and Burgundy wine. One is not “of necessity” better. They’re different. Difference does not necessitate superiority. Different:adjective 1. not the same as another or each other; unlike in nature, form, or quality. I have multiple systems that I’ve spent thirty years carefully assembling. The components were chosen for synergy with each other and the room they’re in. Solid state rig. Tube rig. Streamer. They all sound great, but they also sound different. |
OP -- I am very sorry the thread is hijacked (again) from the naysayers. Unfortunately this is the state of affairs in audio, every single thread gets hijacked from people who have zero interest in the subject. Yet, for some reason, they all flock to these threads, as if someone directs and flags them this way. I hope you got what you needed. |
@thyname OP -- I am very sorry the thread is hijacked (again) from the naysayers.The name of this thread is "Are manufacturer AC cables good enough?" The OP is asking for opinions, not a boiler plate answer of yes or no. I will say that although the formal definition of the word "naysayer" is not specifically related to religion, other than on this website I have most often if not only heard it associated with those who did not believe in a particular religion. I know it is just my hang-up, and I may be way off base here, but I find the repetitive use of the word by those who believe in certain tweaks describing those that do not believe in the tweaks as being just this side of disturbing. This post will self destruct in one day. |
Here in AZ, it's quite necessary to have a large home AC (air conditioning) unit. When my AC unit comes on, there is a momentary dimming of lights and even a slight flicker in the TV picture. The one thing, in which I detect no flicker of the lights, no glitch whatsoever in the sound or performance, is my audio system. I do have my system running through a moderately priced 15A APC power regulator/surge protector - mostly for surge protection, but I suspect that mostly the reason for my system's stable performance is do to the well designed power supplies in my components. JMO, if your very expensive amplifier requires a $3K aftermarket power cord to make it perform well, I'd trade that thing in for something that had a decent power supply and performed as intended out of the box, with the cord that was supplied....Jim |
There are all kinds of AC cables touted by manufacturers to do all kinds of wonderful things to your sound. The AC plug that all these cables are plugged in to, are fed with regular household contractor grade 14awg cables that go through walls and studs and are stapled to secure them. How would a 10awg cable improve the flow of electricity after it is fed with a 14awg cable run that has many twists and turns and could be 30-40' in some cases. Makes no sense. Can a larger gauge cable clean up any impurities in your house line or allow more electricity when it is only fed with 14 gauge. |
I am new to home audio well sort of knew I enjoyed it when I was a kid back in the 1980s. As I got back into it I stumbled on this fight that everyone’s having over all of these cables. I search the Internet to find whatever I could to educate myself on what the difference was between stock versus aftermarket cords. I found two things. The first one was more manufacturers than I ever could’ve imagined and none of them had any kind of charts or graphs or information on how they could change your listening experience. It was all words, “like a much brighter soundstage”. What the hell does that mean? The second thing I found was a guy on YouTube who explains everything in layman‘s terms. His name is Ethan Winer. He has four or five videos explaining many different things about manufactures and designers and how they do things. Here’s a link to one of his videos. After I watch them and then re-watch them because a lot of the stuff went over my head I never saw the power cord dilemma the same. https://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM I’ll be interested in hearing what you guys think |
Thanks I watched Mr Winer's You Tube video. Smart guy. I had a friend over who believed all in science, being that upgraded interconnects do not matter. He wanted to try his DAC in my system, so we inserted it with his balanced interconnects. It sounded poorly compared to my DAC (to the two of us). Then I re-connected his DAC with my Audience AU 24 SX cables. Wow. It sounded better (to our ears). Easily. We switched back and forth. He was dumfounded that the interconnects made such a difference, as 'science does not support it". So, if it sounds better (in all the subjective ways) go for it and enjoy! If you do not believe, that is your opinion, or your science! Isn't subjective pleasure the basis of our hobby? |
I bought my first aftermarket power cords after getting a PS Audio power plant, the Stellar PP3. First, the cord the PP came with is pretty darn stout. I replaced it with AQ’s NRG4. I got two Shunyata Venom 14s for my Rogue Sphinx amp and DirectStream DAC (Magnepan .7 speakers). I have moved them around and don’t hear much difference between cables, but overall the system has what I’m going to call greater articulation. It’s just clearer sound. I’ve never used the $$$ cables so can’t say. But I suspect the “diminishing return” curve kicks in really, really early once a good conductor, insulator and connector are used. But I guess that depends on your definition of good. |
Can someone please help me through the following line of reasoning: AC current travels 2-3 miles from a transfer station at 220 volts, enters my home into a distribution/circuit breaker box, travels through 45 feet of 12 gauge solid copper wire at 110 volts to a plug in my wall, into which I place a 3-foot long power cord..... How can this 3 feet of power cord transform the electrons that have come so far into some magical source of electricity for my components? It does not take much metal-to-metal connectivity to provide 100, 200, or 300 volts into a device..... |
Aren’t most better grades of audio devices fused at the point where the power comes in? I tried looking for a schematic of my Macintosh amplifier and I found one but it was a little fuzzy. It looked like there was a fuse that one across both the hot and neutral. So here’s my point, Are you bringing this power from the street then step it down at a transformer to 110 V and then it comes through your breaker panel, goes through the walls in the form of solid Romax then goes into your $800 power cord and then it runs into a fuse. The last time I looked at an audio fuse it wasn’t much bigger than a human hair. So you’ve got this alternating current going in and out of your amplifier which has the pass-through this fuse. It’s like a major choke point. It’s not like putting a bigger fuel line To a motor. |
By the way, I just read my previous post. It reads horribly. I was in an accident and I am a highly functioning quadriplegic. I rely on Siri to put all this into print.Lately she has been doing a horrible job and I am on able to go back and correct her mistakes. Please bear with me, I’m not an idiot although when you read one of my posts it sounds that way |
raysmtb1 The amplifier they’re talking about in this thread has a mains filter in the amp. They mention it on their website and say in some areas with noisy lines you can add one of their line conditioners. Nowhere do they talk about power cords. I try not to get in the cable nonsense and stay away from interconnects and speaker cable but when it gets to power cables it’s to much. Electricity runs for miles through steel/aluminum wire hits the transformer for your house steps down and comes through the meter, panel, feet of regular copper wire, receptacle then gets to the magical power cord that changes something or the other then goes through a filter in the amp, another transformer, regular 12 or 14 gauge wire in the amp but through this whole thing it’s that few feet of magic wire that adds those wonderful inky black background, open soundstage , voices floating in front of the speakers and pianos beside your couch. Power cable bull is worse than the nonsense they attribute to ethernet and USB cables. |
Yes power cords can make a noticable difference. I have heard it many times over and it is not placebo because I have heard expensive cables which I did not like. The placebo argument is weak at best. Measurement in audio are insufficient to really explain what is happening. We can not measure everything we can hear. |
If you are in a money-saving DIY mood: Install an external LIVE solid AWG 16 to 12 copper or silver wire to a conventional power cord. Strip two inches of the outer insulation sleeve just before the connectors at both ends. Then cut the LIVE wire (use meter to find live wire) leaving two inch tails leading to the connector at each end to which you can solder an external wire that is least five inches longer than the power cable. Wrap live wire connections only with electrical tape. Keep the external wire at least two to three inches away from the power cable's neutral/ground wires for the entire length of the cable and plug it in. Connect one of these cables to components one at time. Audition the improvement as each component's new external LIVE wire cable is installed. You can also start from scratch with connectors and wire. I use 12 AWG stranded copper wire for neutral and ground wires. I use solid naked silver 16 AWG wire encased in an 11 AWG Teflon tube or two layers of expandable poly sleeve for for LIVE wire connected to Sonarquest connectors. Frankly, the modified conventional cable sound about the same. The theory is that parallel LIVE and neutral wires cause induction that produces noise. Whether that is what happens is beyond my ken. Whatever it is, it works. Bass is tightened and voices are sweeter. Compare results. Cheers |
thyname674 posts04-23-2020 12:44pmLOL!! This must be the most preposterous (I am trying to be nice) post I have seen in years in this hobby. Voiding the warranty for using a power cord other than the stock power cord?? LOL!! I was reading at Decware the owner made up his own cable, out of fear his customer kept buying bigger and bigger and, you get my point. He was worried about damage from, to heavy, and to big. That was a few years back, he has a whole line of cables now. It is a sight to behold, a PC flip an amp off a table, because the cable is heavier than the amp. It wasn't funny. I'm glad it wasn't me for once.. LOL hope he doesn't read this.. The LOL part.. LOL Yes different PCs sound different, different ends, different size, different cladding, different, different, different. I've been tinkering, they do sound and perform different.. I'm finding "TO BIG" can just kill a components potential, and vice versa, can leave a hole lot of potential on the table, too. Regards |
rockysantoro: Who is this millercarbon dude? Is he some sort of expert on all things concerning hi-fidelity? What are his credentials? Same as yours. Credentials are a chimera. I mean that literally: a mythological, fire-breathing monster, commonly represented with a lion's head, a goat's body, and a serpent's tail. I'm not big on credentials. I go by what a person is actually able to do, not by what some administrative bureaucratic sanctioning group of committees says they know. That said, here are my "credentials": https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 You could also read through my posts. Quite a few of them are in total agreement with this one of yours from back in December: Static and electromagnetic energy degrade the end result(what comes out of your speakers).Every component is affected,cables,power cords,amps CD players,orDACS.The presence of or lack of this energy,is why your system sounds better some days,and not so good on others. Not too shabby. Keep up the good work. |