Are cables really worth their high price because of their geometry?
@hiendmmoe,I recently upgraded my cables to some 7X the price point. Was it worth it? Absolutely yes. The current cables that I have use a unique build that I have not seen elsewhere. I am stunned every time I listen to the music - because of how they get out of the way and let me hear so much more in a more musical way. Had I know that the cable made such a huge difference, I would have changed it a couple of years ago.While cable geometry makes a big difference, you also have to count 2 other things - your experience and affordability. When you experience something extraordinary, you are more than wiling to pay for it - if you can. So that goes with affordability. Would I have purchased the same cables if I found them out when I started out in his hobby - heck no - I could not have afforded it, even if I loved to have them in my system. Are there better cables than my current ones? Sure there maybe. If they are cheaper than mine then I can afford them. If they are pricier, them I would rather not think about them and enjoy my current system. |
Yes these wires are very complex practically like spacecraft yet there are hundreds for sale on this site at any given time often costing more than much simpler devices like amps and speakers which are much easier to make and much harder to come by. I guess the wire makers got that very complicated and manually intensive process nailed. The process of selling overpriced overhyped wires that is. |
You aren’t even beginning to assess a cable properly that is not used in a set as manufacturer intended. It takes having on hand two or three entire sets of cables to conduct a proper evaluation. Obviously, this is prohibitive for most audiophiles. Rather than say, I have ignorance on the topic, or I do not have experience in evaluating them properly, we have loudmouths and arrogant types who spew their opinions without knowledge. |
Douglas, so entirely not even close to true, much less relevant. Another attempt at setting your own standards for criteria, and if those criteria were met, you’d change them. As after as the Ops question, no idea about geometry, and I don’t bother reading all the marketing hype. I do as so many others do, listen and let my ears tell me what they hear. Are speaker cables overpriced, yes. I doubt those companies could show us that their costs and profit levels are equal to or less than the audio industry standards. Is what it is I suppose, so it’s up to each to decide what it’s worth to them in the end. |
@ hiendmmoe - The Geometry of a cable makes a significant difference in cable perofrmance... e.g.... In-Akustic cables have a simple geometry "conceptually", but building them is where it gets extremely tricky, with lots of custom parts and exceptional wire/insulation quality - and hand built, so their cost is high - But - they are exceptional cables Cardas - their top of the line speaker cable is extremely complex, the cable is built by machine, but the connectors are installed by hand, so their cost is high. But buyers should be aware that some TOTL Cardas speaker cables can cause issues with SOLID STATE amps because of their very high capacitance that can cause some amps to oscillate and cause internal damage. Nordost ribbon geometry is a custom built cable, made from extremely high quality wire and insulation, that has taken years of R&D, and hand assembled so their cost is high. BUT - they are one of the few cables to have very low capacitance AND inductance values and they perform exceptionally well KLE Innovations uses their proprietary formulations that use different conductor gauges and combinations for live and neutral (amongst other things) and are completely hand assembled. Not as expensive as some of the above, but very good performers Kimber Kable cables is a less complex braided geometry, but much better than a simple lamp cord - the "cable" is built by machine and they are pretty easy to add connectors, so they tend to be more affordable, but they are not as good as the others cables mentioned above. Some geometries are very basic and rely solely on conductor quality or using solid wire to improve sound quality. Combining wire quality, insulation quality and an effective geometry will result in a very good cable, but as you said most companies hide behind patents - so how can you tell? Companies that reveal their geometries are confident that they are pretty hard to replicate, and as such they are not giving away their competitive advantage by revealing how their cables are built - i.e.the geometry - these are the companies I would consider. So when selecting a cable, do the research into the geometry, conductor metallurgy and insulation. I would not consider a cable that does not show/mention the geometry employed Unfortunately, the world of cables is very complex and quality comes at a high price. Best practice - ask questions here or try to get loaners or audition in store - and trust your ears. My own quest for a quality cable prompted me to take the DIY route, so take a look at my web site - it might have some useful information http://image99.net/blog/ You’ll also see I’m pretty keen on specific connectors - so it’s not JUST the cables that make a difference Hope that helps - steve |
NO !!! The speaker cable industry, unfortunately, has no knowledge about the product they make. As so, they invented as many "Urban Legends" to Differentiate their product over others, or penetrate the market if new. The ONLY thing that matters is the cables resistance. Resistance is a result of length and thickness. It should be way lower than the Amp’s DF. That’s the only thing that matters. All other: Geometry (a new trend) Purity (OFC) Directional Cryo treatment Skin Effect Silver over Copper Structure Shielding and Snakes Oil :-) Are all in the same ridiculous BS, spread by the industry. |
Winding machine in action. Lots of weaving, low price. https://reverb.com/ca/item/14408424-pine-tree-audio-6-foot-rainbow-ribbons-14awg-speaker-cables |
Teo Audio avoided all the issues with geometry or lack of it, by going to a cable design that takes into account and utilizes a set of properties and base physics that is unique in the entire industry, and the entire world of all possible conductors -for that matter. We created a new divide, a new separator or sorting. On one side, is all possible cable geometries and types, and materials, companies, from Cardas to Belden, to whatever, you name it...all the many thousands of them, along with tens of thousands of design configurations and so on....... ..and then there is Teo Audio as the sole existing type, on the other. To clarify...When it comes to dealing with the fundamental physics of conductivity, there is all cable on one side, all conductors are there ..everything you know of, all of it, no matter who or what materials, and then there is Teo Audio Liquid metal, as the singular ’other’. Almost every single conceivable ’conductivity under high and complex signal delta’ problem you can imagine (which is what an audio signal is--it is the most brutally complex signal in the entire signal world, this audio signal thing--get educated about signal!), all banished in one fell swoop. Go ahead, ask a physicist. Ask a multi degree transmission line specialist/PHD about this, if you think any of this is exaggerated. Ask them to tear down what I'm saying here. Good luck with that. |
Kimber Kable cables is a less complex braided geometry, but much better than a simple lamp cord - the "cable" is built by machine and they are pretty easy to add connectors, so they tend to be more affordable, but they are not as good as the others cables mentioned above. With all due respect, I disagree. It depends which Kimber Kable you look at. They have many cable lines, from very inexpensive to unaffordable (i.e. Naked series). Their "Select" tier is very, very good. It competes extremely well with other brands in your list. Also, even one series, have several models. For example, Select has typically three tiers, copper only, hybrid (silver + copper), and Silver only. Geometry is also different than other tiers down the lineup. |
Building cables is just like everything else. I worry that by everything else people think I mean audio. But no. I mean everything else. Its all the same. Take cars. Pretty much all cars have four wheels. Nice and stable. They tend to all look the same. Many decades ago, not so much. All these wonderful shapes and sizes. When they started going faster though air resistance became a bigger factor and so now they are all starting to converge on aero shapes much like airplanes. That’s the majority of cars, the automotive equivalent of the radio or boom box, up to mid-fi. Hi-Fi is like F1. Look how many different designs there are in F1. There’s been ground effects, there’s been four front wheels! Today when you look close there’s no two alike even on the same grid, and Mercedes is able to adjust front geometry by pulling and pushing on the steering wheel. What is going on here is exactly the same thing as is going on with cables. Its always the same. At one level of performance the technology is pretty well ironed out. At the sharp end of the stick though are all these different people with all kinds of different ideas on how to advance and expand the performance envelope. Nobody knows what they’re doing. Oh we all like to think they do. We look at something like the SR71 and say see, they know, and for sure have even better stuff now. Forgetting all the failed designs before and since. Because pushing the performance envelope is driving into the unknown. How could anyone possibly know what they’re doing? That people can be so daft as to believe these stories boggles the mind. Especially since its not only the absolute finest cost no object performance where this applies. It applies equally well to the budget product. With SOTA the challenge is to make something better than anything ever before. With budget the challenge is to get that SOTA sound for cheap. Either way it involves trying new approaches. Either way its experimental. Either way the proof is in the pudding. So what do we do? Talk about geometry? How dumb can you get?!? Might as well be a bunch of us sitting around arguing about Red Bull winglets vs Ferrari whatever. Its all piffle. The proof is in the pudding. Cars must be raced. Cables must be listened to. All else is noise. |
b4icu281 posts07-19-2020 10:35pmNO !!! The speaker cable industry, unfortunately, has no knowledge about the product they make. As so, they invented as many "Urban Legends" to Differentiate their product over others, or penetrate the market if new. The ONLY thing that matters is the cables resistance. Resistance is a result of length and thickness. It should be way lower than the Amp’s DF. That’s the only thing that matters. All other: Geometry (a new trend) Purity (OFC) Directional Cryo treatment Skin Effect Silver over Copper Structure Shielding and Snakes Oil :-) Are all in the same ridiculous BS, spread by the industry. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Ok then, what’s the best maestro? You said, what you said, NOW what should I use? Direction? Purity (OFC)? Silver over Copper? Shielding? Structure? (there’s a new one). Ridiculous BS. All other, than RESISTANCE is BS... Did I read you view correctly? WOW, are you in for learning curve, No, I don’t want to listen to your system...Thank you very much.. I have a good idea, where it’s gonna land in my SQ realm. LOL Kinda like comparing Chef Boyardee spaghetti in a can with MAMA’S home cooking... Laughable at best... Regards |
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mapman17,350 posts07-20-2020 1:09pmIf the cables are worth it why are there always so many for sale here? They should be hard to find like other high quality gear that is worth it. The 4 figure wires appear to be a dime a dozen.Simple: people like to experiment with cables, try for themselves, and the repeat. Much easier to deal with cables (i.e. shipping is easy) than with speakers, amps, etc. There are all kind of cables available in Audiogon for sale, for all budgets. Getting them used at a good price, helps a lot in terms of resale value when trying, and then reselling if it does not fit the bill (read: ears). Again, very simple. And everyone knows margins are high in cables, thus the value of used. So no secret there. |
The problem there is if they are worth it then people would not be selling. But they are so apparently not. I imagine some take a beating Buying new then selling for a fraction of what is paid. That’s called not worth it in my book. More likely many are put up for sale because there is a lot of profit to be made selling since it’s largely a guessing game to start with so actual value is an unknown. Also regarding geometries please show where the relative merit or performance of different geometries is compared scientifically to establish the winners and losers and set some expectation regarding value |
@mapman --- not sure I understand your point. People buy and sell stuff all the time. Look at other stuff here, not just cables. Cables are actually the easiest to sell / buy used, because they are very easy to pack and ship, and very cheap to ship. And yes, actual value is an unknown.... until one tries them in their own system. |
Someone must be buying, right? Example: me --- for every cable I sell, I buy another one to replace it. And not all prices are very high. There are plenty of cables for sale at very good prices, for any budget. For example: me (again): I only buy what I can afford. I don't buy stuff that I cannot afford. Buying used makes it easier. |
mapman The problem there is if they are worth it then people would not be selling. But they are so apparently not.Non-sequitor. People sell cables for all sorts of reasons. Maybe they've moved their system from the living room to a media room. Or maybe they moved into a new home altogether. Perhaps they've evolved from separates into more integrated components, or vice-versa. Perhaps their new components are balanced and need XLR connectors. Maybe the new preamp won't fit on the same shelf a s the old one, so new cables are needed. Or - although I realize the thought may offend you - they simply seek to upgrade a cable. I imagine some take a beating Buying new then selling for a fraction of what is paid.People imagine all sorts of things! ... regarding geometries please show where the relative merit or performance of different geometries is compared scientifically to establish the winners and losers ...This is a hobbyist's group, so no one here is obligated to perform any research for you. Please feel free to conduct your own research and share the results with us. |
Are all in the same ridiculous BS, spread by the industry.
I'm from the 70's audiophile gen,,,i never bought into all those high flown tech terms. ,.,,shielded, purity,,,OFC,, blah blah blahhhhh. Shielded from what? the air? how is the air going to add distortion,,My navships IC's has a thin layer of coating , = and sound fantastic, as good/better than those super thick high tech high priced, snakeoil IC's. |
Yes I do the same. Buy used mostly. The costs of the wires I’ve settled on for years now run from ~$60-$400 all used. I payed most for a longer run of speaker wires. To each their own. If the wires are worth it to you that’s all that matters. I just see all the 4 digit cost wires for sale here cluttering up the site and get a little dismayed at The amount of nonsense that goes on. |
Another cables thread..... :) I am amazed by the way most people think they will solve the upgrading S.Q. problem... Any upgrade is welcome the more costly the better, cables, amplifiers, dac, speakers, etc except the most important thing to take care of... The most important factors to take care of are the acoustical, the electrical, and the mechanical embeddings...NO other one....Certainly not buying something because of frustration or unsatifaction by way of a solution... No new electronic design in dac and amplifier or even speakers, will compensate for a bad or inexistant controls of these embeddings.... I know that firsthand....If you want to upgrade wait till these controls embeddings are rightfully implemented...Money dont necessarily buy Hi-FI, this is a costly myth....Listening experiments will give you Hi-Fi.... Nobody will acuse me of repeating myself now, with all these tedious discussions about cables differences....MIssing the essential audio problem and taking for target a secondary one.... i must repeat myself for the benefit of newcomers.... Newcomers dont buy anything, think and experiment with what you have first..... My best to all..... P.S. yes cables sound different, but are mostly overvalued in all ways....The upgrading of the embeddings may cost peanuts for those who try....Newcomers be warned.... |
Madman, there are less high end cables for sale then there are high end amps, speakers, etc. I just looked at Audiogon for each category and searched by price starting at high to low, so your statement is not correct. People change components, and different cables work better in different systems, so they get swapped out. |
Twisted wire will help guard against interference. I've never tried these but they look pretty well made and offer to measure the LCR for you at a reasonable price. https://sites.google.com/view/pine-tree-audio/speaker/speaker-cables/visceral |
The geometry of a cable is a big determining factor in how a cable will sound, but a complex geometry doesn't mean it's better sounding than a simple geometry. Oftentimes, these complex geometries measure worse than the simple ones. Like most things in audio, it's about system synergy and listener's preference. No two systems/rooms are alike, so there's NO perfect component nor cable in audio regardless of how exotic the geometry or materials are! Add salt to a bland dish then it's right, add it to a salty dish then it's wrong, that's why we hear praise and insult for the same component all the time. Somehow we keep spending more and more thinking the higher price cable will be better. As for the high price of cables in general, a lot of the cost is the labor, especially for the hand-built and custom made ones. Boutique connectors are also very expensive, much more than the conductors, dielectric, fillers, and dress up materials. Then there is the cost of R&D which varies greatly amongst companies. And then there is rent, employees, marketing, etc. that most businesses endure. All of these costs add up pretty quickly. |
Ironically, I use DNM Reson ICs almost exclusively. The geometry of these are quite unique however also quite minimalist. Not cheap for a very minimalist product, but I do find the sound to be uniquely coherent compared to others. I suspect that is due to the minimalist design (they basically look like old 300ohm antenna wire) but can't prove it. At the same time, I can usually pick these up used when needed for under $100 so not so bad compared to the other high end competition. http://stereotimes.com/cable022205.shtml#:~:text=The%20DNM%2FReson%20cables%20are%20seductive%20and%20addicting%3A%20the,correct%20trade-off%20to%20suit%20one%E2%80%99s%20larger%20musical%20goals. |
I've settled on Audio Envy cables. I'm off the cable merry-go-round. Good riddance.
Ok so 2ft @ $160, Yeah I read the blah blah blahhhhh in the descript https://audioenvy.com/product/speaker/sp9-each/ But could you at least consider navships 16 gague @ $40? see my recent topic on his cables. Returnable,,,, ,,but i bet you'll be glad i mentioned navships. |
quite unique however also quite minimalist.
after invest $300+ in my own DIY IC's, = a complete failure,, super thick cable froma DIY site, solid copper ends , = a flop,,I only go now ~~minimalist~~~ skinny is good, as in my new navships IC 16 gague,,,,super skinny,, pure minimal. sound like million $ IC's. navships teels you what the wire is, your Reson does not describe the makeup of the core. navships is the last IC I'll ever buy/care/want to own. Its that good an improvement. Completely opened up my Jadis Defy7 with new Mundorf Supreme caps./F&T caps, + Takman Metal Resistors. IC's make or break the sonic fidelity. No doubt about it,, = Not snakeoil, ,,contray to my previous bias/disbelief. |
As a manufacturer I can honestly say yes...and no. Ethical manufacturers price their cables with a nod to materials cost, hardware cost, build time and...here is the kicker... amortizing out the hours, days, weeks, months and sometimes years spent researching, building prototypes and refining their (our) designs. Intellectual property does not come cheap. The realization that “wire is not just wire” is merely the beginning. Having materials made to our specification is getting to be stupid expensive in the relatively small lots that audio manufacturers need. |
OP shielding can really mess up the sound if your not careful. I have a less is best type system. PC, RCAs, XLRs and speaker IC, can ALL reduce RFI EFI with a weave, so it doesn't throw a blanket on the SQ.. The quality of the material and different conductors, whole different ball game. The Composition! You keep using the word "Geometry", size and shape, relative position of figures, and the properties of space... Composition, the "what" of the WHOLE, (what it's made of). Still, BAD cables, need to be good cables, crazy thing to say, but cables only go so far.. like 2-3% if they are good to begin with. NEVER jaw dropping.. LOL, that one kills me.. No cost/ low cost solutions, get my attention...and have improved my system more than ANY cable.. BUT, I started 40 years ago, with large conductor, pure silver and pure copper, USAF surplus. The improvements over the years have been VERY minim, because of that alone...Like ZERO, other than network (HARP Box) an added wire or type of wire, armor....maybe some of the tuning terminal ends. Not much of that either.. I've had 3-25,000 cable over here. ALL were red faced. One cable made MY 300s shake rattle and roll..Oscillation big time...MITs I was at a house with JBL Everest speakers, everything was wonderful. Speaker IC was off the real, as per installer...10 gauge copper, in the wall, with short tuning patch cords, from the wall to the speaker.. GREAT speakers.....good cable... SQ... oh yea.... Regards |
@thyname - many thanks for your comments. It has been while since I used Kimber Cables and my comments reflected the TOTL cable I used several years ago Their Naked series (IC's) are a departure from their long time braiding approach and will definitely provide a significant improvement in sound quality over their more affordable braided cables. It appears to be very similar in geometry to the DIY cables that VH Audio posts on their web site. So if you are adventurous and can solder, you could try that geometry before splashing out $$$ for the real thing. Regards - Steve |
@hiendmmoe I’ve always wondered why geometry in speaker cables is so important if they sound better un-shielded. Isn’t the geometry suppose to suppress interference from RFI? Wouldn’t shielding do the same thing?The basic geometry in cables and the basic twist (double helix) is not broken and really doesn’t need to be messed with, it is used everywhere in professional environments. The many complex geometries and materials introduced by high-end cable manufacturers are used to alter the sound and to set that company apart from everyone else in the cable game. It also helps marketing a lot when you have something different to sell, everyone can’t be selling the same basic twisted pair design. If I remember correctly, adding shielding (outer copper braid) to the length of a speaker cable increases capacitance significantly which is why it's not done. |
