As I am new to the hifi hobby, reading various product reviews and noting the details of the test environment have made me very confused. I understand Stereophile is the hifi bible. In the publication’s DAC published tests the reviewers almost always tested the DAC connected directly to the amplifier. I think I understand why—nothing in the chain influencing the DAC sound. Is that the correct assumption? If that’s the case why incorporate a preamp if the DAC has a preamp section that is a common feature even on high end DACs? I’m in the market for a new DAC. I’m trying to avoid unnecessary components if possible. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.
A costlier DAC should, at least in theory, produce more accurate output. Specs like ultra-low THD are not very important when considering which DAC to buy. Like I said before, if you can’t hear it, it doesn’t matter. Tons of negative feedback in the circuit and other shortcomings...and many who have not heard a lot of audio gear before are quick to praise it...simply because it produces sound/ouput!!
Ranking by cost alone may not provide the results you want. It’s all about the design topology, quality and longevity ratings of internal parts, protocols, USB controllor specs, and of course the designers intent. Do you want a very detailed DAC? then go hunting for "accurate or resolving DACs" online. A lot of pro audio gear (such as steinburg interfaces, for example are more suited for recordeding and will not reach the same level of performance as a standalone DAC. Once again, cost savings.
At any rate, software settings on programs such as jriver can alter the sound quality of a DAC in many different ways. If you’ve got a resolving DAC that sounds cold for example, you can easily fixate its tonal quality to be a bit warmer and easier on the ears. The details in the music will still be there...just less obvious or upfront.
I’ve read quite a few of @jasonbourne52 posts, and much of what he says is practical and makes sense.
Also, from my experience with my current equipment, some tracks are mastered at high levels. I assume the double gain (eg from the DAC and the preamp) exacerbates the loudness. Some tracks sound like screaming vocals. I assume that won’t allow me allow to realize the full potential of the amplifier if I have to listen at low levels.
Right, these folks don’t match for LUFS!! Look this one up...
Other problems include excessive dithering, not converting a CD quality file to 32 bit by 96 KHz or higher, dynamic range compression, Equalization mistakes, etc.
And you’re absolutely right about that. Having to turn down the volume because of problems with loudless won’t allow you to experience full extent of the music.
I would say that the one advantage to following the ASR sheep is that the units recommended by ASR can be resold very quickly and without taking as much of a haircut in the process.
There’s a lot to be said about separate components if you have the space. The two biggest issues are noise isolation and separate power supply’s. That’s where you get performance.
Interesting to me, how these discussions become so incredibly polarizing. Isn’t it true that there are many variables to consider here? A good sounding dac is a good sounding dac. A dac that measures well does not guarantee that its output stage will be particularly pleasing. But it is possible that a dac that measures well can also be a great good sounding dac. It is possible for a poorly measuring dac to still sound unique and wonderful. So much of this is subject to personal trial and error. However objectivist we’d like to be, two individuals with the exact same equipment will find differences in their setups for reasons that extend beyond their equipment.
Circuitry and the arrangement of internal components, board designs, filter caps (or lack there of), chips, or discrete circuits, wiring (and the amount of it), etc etc etc. all render different results. Question is, how do we listen? What are we finding or looking for when we do?
Not a guarantee, and there are some price conscious outlier/somewhat giant killer components out there…but I have found that quality components paired with good design = good sound. But I suppose even that’s too subjective.
When you use the DAC as a digital volume control directly into an amp the DAC is lowering the bit depth and therefore taking resolution out of the bit stream.
If you want less boxes then go with an integrated amp, I'm thinking you would very much like to have the volume control in the analog world.
Go forth and listen, then listen some more and then even more. Talk is cheap. Trust you ears. They won't lie to you.
You cannot pick a components by measurements alone. Price has nothing to do with sound quality. You have not mentioned what type of sound you prefer so every recommendation here is completely useless. Do you like a tube sound or SS sound and do you know why they sound different?
Most products use less expensive parts no matter what the price. Parts make sound quality. Power supplies are where you should start first. Computer grade PS capacitors or Nichicon Supers? Bradly resistors or Takman, Amtrans or Audio Note. V-Capacitors? If not then you get what you pay for.
As far as a DAC without a preamp, I would suggest that method until you find a preamp that helps your system sound better to your own ears.
You do not mention a price range. So without that, I cannot assist you.
+1 @bigkidz"You cannot pick a components by measurements alone."
Glad to see this statement in the first sentence to advise newbies more. A few years back I followed ASR tests, bought (and later returned) a highly praised DAC, with 125-128db signal to noise ratio, and all of these great measuring parameters.
Then, later to discover all of the different type dac connections were not tested and reported, and after playing the dac for a while it was one of the most sterile and boring sounding dac units I’ve ever tried or owned. The dac got returned for a full refund, thankfully. Agree, you cannot pick a component by measurements alone if you care about how it sounds too.
I sense the preamp is an afterthought for some of these low end DAC/preamps. Super high end ones may warrant a discussion however. I read the MSB select manual; the OEM suggests direct to amp connection. I'm not playing in that league. A high quality DAC in the 3k-5k range is ideal. Holo Audio and Exasound DACs are interesting. And maybe the Qutest.
I read the MSB select manual; the OEM suggests direct to amp connection.
as dacs go it is a bit of an older model now, but my beloved msb analog dac functions not only as a streaming dac (with lan card) but also has an extra set of analog inputs (for a phono stage for example)... it works brilliantly going into power amps - with both rca and xlr outputs, and a terrific remote control
My pre is a Freya + do this allows me to add tubes or not depending on the sound I want. Even though I never use with out the tube stage it is nice to have the option. IFi dac’s have a very good amp stage and you can buy dac’s with tubes if that is your sound choice. Does not mean you have to add a pre amp. Listen to what you like don’t feel the need to chase or catch the rabbit. Enjoy the music!
after playing the dac for a while it was one of the most sterile and boring sounding dac units I’ve ever tried or owned. The dac got returned for a full refund, thankfully. Agree, you cannot pick a component by measurements alone if you care about how it sounds too.
+1, Live and learn. There’s no better teacher than experience.
I don't know much about the Mytek line, but they have an interesting approach. The Mytek offers the choice of analog & digital volume control. Indeed, there seem to be a lot of similarities between the Brooklyn & P6. Both have preamp facilities (additional inputs, including phono sections, volume control) as well as DACs (both appear to be based on the ESS 9018, even). Have you compared them against each other, section by section?
The P6 is much more flexible, with more inputs, home theater bypass, bass management, etc. If these have value to you and the DAC sections sound acceptably close, consider selling the Mytek & using the P6 DAC while you ponder your next acquisition. If the Mytek works for you as a standalone preamp, you could do the reverse.
If all of your sources are digital, source switching really occurs at the DAC. In that case, a DAC with a satisfactory volume control could be all the preamp you need
I'd rather trust ASR's rankings than the subjective blather here.
Oh good! Go back there to ASR. The world will be a better place. What are you doing here? Why are you here in this “horrible subjective blather place”?? Polluting every single adult conversation with your childish (or senile, rather ) comments
Have you compared them against each other, section by section?
This is something I'm trying to analyze, though it's quite difficult to match the volume. I find the Brooklyn plays louder. I'm unsure whether the detail I hear is a result of higher volume or simply better DAC on the Mytek.
Your advice is sound. I may go that route, though many reviews poo poo the P6's DAC.
@laoman "You get what you pay for" . Wouldn't THAT be nice? I hope you were joking.
But probably not, if I see and read about some true audiophile nutcases. "Wishful thinking" or "I spent $300,000k on that turntable and I can hear every single dollar" is the driving force in the esoteric part of high fidelity.
Take a $100k amplifier. Material cost shoiuld be in the $1-10k range. Leaves $90k for labor. At $100/hour (yes, that includes a hefty profit margin/overhead), that is 900 hours or 110 man days!
@mastering92I strictly stream Qobuz. No files here.
I'm curious how everyone evaluates a DAC disregarding the measurements. What is the hallmark of a good DAC? I suppose one could spend insane amounts of money but is there such a moneyball DAC?
I really enjoy hearing detail and separation. That is I can hear each instrument and clear vocals. That's why I find Dido tracks great. Using a proper set up to listen to a track from my college days is such a satisfying experience.
I really enjoy hearing detail and separation. That is I can hear each instrument and clear vocals.
just buy a chord qutest and be done, or even for less money, an rme adi-2 if you don’t care much about imaging (it is clear as a whistle and flat as a cardboard cutout figure)
no need to further belabor this already tortured subject of measurement vs listening for dacs- the credible folks on this particular forum listen to music, evaluate gear through listening, measurements are of relatively minor significance
no need to further belabor this already tortured subject of measurement vs listening for dacs- the credible folks on this particular forum listen to music, evaluate gear through listening, measurements are of relatively minor significance
I’m curious how everyone evaluates a DAC disregarding the measurements. What is the hallmark of a good DAC? I suppose one could spend insane amounts of money but is there such a moneyball DAC?
Hmmmmm..... by listening? I understand you cannot possibly listen to all the DACs, but for starters:
1 - Determine your budget, how much you want to spend
2 - Do your own research, read reviews, users' impressions on public forums, read measurements (if that is your thing, nothing wrong with that)
3 - Get as much exposure as you can: friends with good systems, dealers showroom, audio shows, etc. etc.
4 - See if you can get a trial at home, or buy used at heavily discounted prices.
Now of course, this does not happen overnight, it takes years, and sticking with the hobby, but you can start somewhere small, and can always upgrade from there, when you find a better DAC, a good deal price wise, etc. etc.
P.S. you don’t have to spend "an insane amount of money" on a DAC. Good DACs exist at all price ranges. Noone is forcing you to to spend a lot of money. It also depends on the rest of your system. Matching what you have (speakers, amp, etc.)
Back to the original question- this is an important topic for those with a single source trying to decide between going DAC-pre straight into a power amp versus adding a separate preamp or integrated. It is difficult to find reliable information about the preamp qualities of a DAC to predict this. In theory, the output impedance of the DAC and the input impedance of the amp should help decide, but this seems nonspecific in practice. Maybe it is marketing, but the separate preamp option offered for the Holo Spring would seem to fit the bill.
The RME ADI-2 DAC FS Desktop DAC & Headphone Amp DAC provides a lot of features which eliminate the use of a preamp, as long as you only listen to digital sources.
I just listened to white flag by Dido. Lovely voice I added it to my playlist. It seems like the volume on her mic was up a bit maybe? Not piercing though. The parts I didn’t really like as much are when the back up singers join in or maybe it’s an effect. Her voice is much better when it’s just her. Perhaps your electronics and or speakers are on the bright side. The room would also play a big factor if not treated. Happy listening
In my opinion, the DAC is the second most important component after the speakers - it is creating the signal you listen too.
Quality does in improve with price, but I don't know what price it stops being really noticeable.
Good DACs cost alot of money, and good preamps cost more than amp much of the time. I find volume control on the DAC chip to be much inferior to a preamp.
As for Amir, and ASR. As a person with "Scientist" in their job title, all I will say is that he is not doing science. Measurements are important because they can let you know if there is a design flaw, but measurements will not tell you what it sounds like.
One might assume that the simplest audio chain is sonically best, but my online empirical research shows a mixed bag - sometimes the sonics sound better with a preamplifier in the chain. Some surmise the preamp may somehow be conditioning the signal to be more favorable (ohms?) to the amp.
The HoloAudio May DAC would be my choice based on online reviews. Perhaps you can stretch to the Lampizator Baltic 3 DAC at $6.6k - reports that it’s sonics are way above it’s price point - it appears to be a very rare bargain.
Listening to music is a subjective experience. Measurements of meaning should significantly correlate with the subjective experience or at least some component of it. This, for me, is where the measurement argument runs out of steam. Measurements don’t tell me what I hear. I like certain sonic representations thru my stereo systems that are different. I have four systems that all sound different yet each is musically satisfying to me though I do like my reference best. I trust a few reviewers ears based on my listening to equipment they have reviewed. There is at least one Audiogon retailer who has yet to steer me wrong on a purchase. I could not tell you very many of the measurement specs on my equipment nor could I tell u what measurement explains why my PassLabs amp sounds different than my Ampzilla monoblocks.
So...I have tested dozens of DACs ranging from $300 to $30K. What you really need when matching to an amp is to ensure the electrical properties (impedance, voltage, etc...) are a good match for the amplifier you are connecting to.
It does not matter how it measures or does not measure if the output of the DAC is not well aligned with the amplifier it is connecting too. A big advantage of a preamp is that it is going to alter the source signal and ensure it is well suited to the amp it is connected too, assuming that it is properly matched to your amp.
In general, DACs have a fairly high output level and tend to work best when directly connected to amplifiers that have a low level of sensitivity. You can have an amazing volume control, full preamp stage, etc... but if it is a poor match it will sound like crap.
The right way to judge whether a DAC is a good fit or not is to start with what amp you have and then what speakers. After that, in general, DACs with true preamp stages tend to outperform those with simple volume controls.
Finally, reviewers tend to always be positive about performance of units. You need to get what is driving positivity around a particular unit. For example, one DAC you have mentioned excels with the use of HQ Player. If you aren't going to use HQ Player, it is average. This helps eliminate buyers remorse.
I can't offer advice on what to buy. I can offer advice on what to audition but need to learn a lot more about your listening habits and rest of your system.
I don't think this is the case in 2023, Thomas talks about an approach to DAC's that is "good enough" and I tend to agree with him. FWIW I do own a Sony Signature DAC that is their SOA, but the DAC in my Bluesound Node streamer is certainly "good enough":
@verdantaudio Have you compared the Lumin X1 DAC in your shootout? I need to get another DAC and trying to find a reason not to get a second X1. Variety would be nice or maybe not, since I like the X1’s sound and features. The other DAC I have on my mind is the Musetec 005, which I have owned before and much cheaper and also like (but no streamer)
I am curious about other DACs in the higher priced bracket. Along with DACs that have USB as their best sounding input, like the Musetec 005. I will stream with fibre optical Sonore OpticalRendu (fibre-to-usb) if I do not get another X1.
I will go with a 2nd Benchmark LA4 preamp and currently the CODA #16 amp. Although, I may keep the CODA #16 in the office system and get a KRELL XD amp for the new DAC.
In my opinion, the DAC is the second most important component after the speakers - it is creating the signal you listen too.
@yyzsantabarbarai have not had the X-1 in for a detailed evaluation. I have heard it though and am familiar with Lumin’s sound. The DAC I would say you must listen to is one I am about to write up. The Soul Note D-2. USB is unquestionably the best input. There is a rich story behind the brand founders experience but that has led to some really incredible and natural sounding products. You can add a 10 MHz clock to take performance to the next level. The biggest issue is that it is DAC only so no volume control. If you can live with that, it might be worth an audition.
I own three of the Dacs measured in ASR’s Best USB Dac Review. Regarding sound quality of each, their spot on the list reflects my view exactly. However, the high ranking SMSL Sanskrit ll lost function of it’s USB input soon after getting it, as did the remote. It is also the cheapest of the Dacs I own. It is the best sounding to my ear, but my other two have not had any problems. Very disappointing, but as said, "cheap is cheap"!
ASR posts as many ridiculous claims as possible to generate clicks, which is how they make money. Generally you'll be in good shape doing the opposite of what ASR recommends.
Without any advertising @carlsbad, can you tell me how much money @ASR makes per click? I go there for the Klippel speaker measurements. Other than the dipole measurement they screwed up, their measurements are accurate.
I am familiar with the Soul Note product story and philosophical/implementation approach. Near the antithesis of Benchmark designs. Curious to see how someone who is pleased with Benchmark will respond to Soul Note. There’s only one way to find out.
@thespeakerdudeThis has been my assessment of ASR for quite a while and I've posted it many times before. As you can see in this thread, there are many that agree with me, in fact I'd say the majority of posters here agree with me. There is a vocal minority that follow them like a cult. I hope you eventually see them for what they are. Best of luck.
I spent some time on youtube university learning more about DAC technologies. I found British Audiophile's review of the Spring 3 DAC interesting. I'm not an engineer by trade, but through my experience as a tech analyst in finance I understood most of his thoughts on the different tech inside the DAC. I wonder how much time is spent understanding the guts of the DAC versus reading reviews. In any case, more food for thought. 🤔
Have a PS Audio amp and preamp, dac sounds better without the preamp, dac sound much fuller with better clarity. . Have a Don Sachs Amp and preamp, dac sounds more lifeless. Have a Conrad Johnson cav45 S2 it has no preamp/control amp. It sounds big and full on Denafrips dac but can sound week if not enough gain on phono preamp or cartridge. I think only way to know is plug it up and turn up the volume and see what happens. Buying blind can be problematic.
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