Analyzing DACs

@jasonbourne52

@laoman

ASR - Very inexpensive DACs, headphone amps, speakers, and even headphones that measure well. Because measurements alone are the bread and butter of these brands...it is the basis of their marketing material and the primary reason why people jump the gun and buy ASR-recommended gear. Let me tell you...it’s a pipe dream...

I have been disappointed my so many of the top-measuring audio electronics featured on that website..! To such an extent that I sold all of them!! From DACs, to headphone amplifiers, to USB C dongles for android smartphones that claim better performance on paper than any high-end stand-alone DAC. You would think that Hollywood studios, Sony Music Studios, and other big players in industry would using or recommending ASR gear by now...

High-end audio and the pro audio/live sound industries should have died off since the inception and frequently-posted publications on ASR - The industry as a whole has not adapted; and there are a multitude of reasons why they haven’t.

Products from those brands (You know who they are) are all "built to a cost" meaning that costs savings was all-important in terms of the quality of internal parts, design/implementation of DAC chips, the use of OP amps rather than discrete or custom types of FETs, poor quality casework that is feather-light and does not damp the internals properly, soldered-on inputs/outputs, vertical-chip capacitors that are computer-grade, rather than audio grade and therefore much cheaper to buy in bulk, the use of axial or radial capacitors rather than snap-in, the lack of ceramic saftey capacitors, no saftey resistors, and even the total absence of sacrificial fuses that blow in the event of a malfunction; to protect the inputs/outputs, reactive load (speakers, headphones), and the circuit itself. I could go on and on... lol

It is so easy to buy the latest DAC chip in bulk, slap it on a PCB, include a cheap crystal oscillator at 10 cents a piece, and have output. Therefore, the measurements are often not the total sum of parts inside the electronics, but the DAC chip at engineering standard itself. And not all DAC chips are created equal. The easier it is to implement/ it can withstand all kinds of substandard parts tolerances and teperature variations/ the worse it will sound. Rather than have all parts when, which measured, do not vary wildly and will compliment eachother to create a high-performace unit.

I understand what Amir is trying to do...he wants to be popular online. If you want the total backstory of ASR and why it exists, send me a message.

@jasonbourne52 

Anyone who has done research on ASR will tell you the back story. I don't believe it it is personal for audio enthusiasts, but it is definitely personal for manufacturers of otherwise good audio gear. Him reviewing a product unfavorably can directly impact sales. That is bread and butter for the companies...their employees, electronics engineers, and founder etc. That hurts.

If you want to know all the research and info I have about ASR, send me a message.

@jasonbourne52 

it is possible. For more information, just send me a message.

@jasonbourne52

Because they all use descriptive language to describe what they are hearing with a new system, audio component, headphone, speakers etc. they have in for review. What HiFi does the same thing. So did the legendary Tyll Hertsens, former editor in chief of a now defuct site called: innerfidelity, the same domain is now "stereophile" He was the best reviewer in the world for headphones!

We could easily say that they are "subjectivists" rather than "objectivists" but then we start sounding too much like the minions at ASR; and I don’t want that.

Descriptors are necessary...just like someone trying to describe a personal experience, a food critic explaining what to do better next time, or even in the workplace when describing standard operating procedures or internal documentation regarding the skill or difficulty level. Therefore, using such language does not automatically turn someone into a subjective reviewer with no basis in the objective realilty of their review/testing.

The measurements on ASR are easy to replicate (if you know how to do them) and do not correlate with what we hear as humans. Extremely low THD specs for example; since achieving lower levels than is physically possible to hear is a rather pointless pursuit. But these brand keep doing it....because all that negative feedback in the circuit is dumbing down the performance; while making the specs look amazing on paper / online marketing material. And people buy in to it.

For example, the THX 789 sounds dreadful. I wrote an amazon review that you may want to check out. It explains why...

If Amir and his followers were the prophets of objective truth, many sectors in the audio industry would have collapsed by now..everyone would be buying ASR recommended gear, and ignoring the rest. People like to save money. So they would likely opt for cheaper components that measure well.

Like I said in previous posts, a null-test that allows us to see the actual ouput in a waveform is not done on ASR. In other words, using an ADC (analog to digital convertor). We can even use software that tells us if the ouput files are alike or indifferent with percentage match software. Run the same test track (30 seconds) through 3 different DACs or CD players - get different output each time...

He has not consulted real manufacturers or even veteren brands insofar as regarding how they measure audio gear; or even why their measurements are poor or just average; according to him and his pink panther figurine. He simply produces rash and impulsive reviews that do not depend upon proven or reliable testing methods. There are videos on YouTube where an employee working at audio precision explains why measurements don’t always translate to improved or even superior sound quality. His measurement system that costs as much as a half-average car, is made by that company: Audio Precision.

I’d much rather have Amir and his friends send their test results to Audio Precision, have them replicate the same test, along with null tests, comparing output files for their percentage of differences, wow, flutter, gang errors (between circuits) measuring the tolerances and voltage outputs inside the gear to see if it meets the engineering spec, reliability, circuit design carried out properly,  etc. I could keep going....but by now I think you and (perhaps others) get the point.

@larryaa55

A costlier DAC should, at least in theory, produce more accurate output. Specs like ultra-low THD are not very important when considering which DAC to buy. Like I said before, if you can’t hear it, it doesn’t matter. Tons of negative feedback in the circuit and other shortcomings...and many who have not heard a lot of audio gear before are quick to praise it...simply because it produces sound/ouput!!

Ranking by cost alone may not provide the results you want. It’s all about the design topology, quality and longevity ratings of internal parts, protocols, USB controllor specs, and of course the designers intent. Do you want a very detailed DAC? then go hunting for "accurate or resolving DACs" online. A lot of pro audio gear (such as steinburg interfaces, for example are more suited for recordeding and will not reach the same level of performance as a standalone DAC. Once again, cost savings. 

At any rate, software settings on programs such as jriver can alter the sound quality of a DAC in many different ways. If you’ve got a resolving DAC that sounds cold for example, you can easily fixate its tonal quality to be a bit warmer and easier on the ears. The details in the music will still be there...just less obvious or upfront.

I’ve read quite a few of @jasonbourne52 posts, and much of what he says is practical and makes sense.

@tee_dee

Also, from my experience with my current equipment, some tracks are mastered at high levels. I assume the double gain (eg from the DAC and the preamp) exacerbates the loudness. Some tracks sound like screaming vocals. I assume that won’t allow me allow to realize the full potential of the amplifier if I have to listen at low levels.

Right, these folks don’t match for LUFS!! Look this one up...

Other problems include excessive dithering, not converting a CD quality file to 32 bit by 96 KHz or higher, dynamic range compression, Equalization mistakes, etc.

And you’re absolutely right about that. Having to turn down the volume because of problems with loudless won’t allow you to experience full extent of the music.

Which tracks? I’d love to fix them.

@tee_dee 

I have one of her albums, but not that song. Although I've heard it on the rardio before. Send it to me. I'll fix it and send it back.

Check my profile for my YouTube channel/ just email me a link to a shared file.

@jjss49 

no need to further belabor this already tortured subject of measurement vs listening for dacs- the credible folks on this particular forum listen to music, evaluate gear through listening, measurements are of relatively minor significance

I agree 100%