Analyzing DACs

@Tee_Dee

Actually DAC Tech has advanced considerably faster over the last few years.

compared to the rest of the core components in most systems. Buy something current.

It seems like the general issue here is gain structure. Each component operates in a certain range and all components should operate most efficiently within that range. That’s a big part of synergy. How that gain is achieved differentiates quality. 

jasonbourne52

2,863 posts

02-03-2023 at 01:03am 

I'd rather trust ASR's rankings than the subjective blather here.

LOL! You still doing your thing sad man? Ridiculous creature 

My advice is buy the best measuring DAC available, the SMSL SU-X for $1K, and then buy a comparatively poor measuring DAC, the Denafrips Ares 12TH-1 for the same money, and do a 2 week A/B test in your system. You will learn a lot about what you like - and the value of measurements.

ASR is pure garbage as far as information about which DAC sounds good; they admit as much themselves.  The entire site is premised on the idea that no DAC sounds different than any other.  Anyone who disputes as much is quickly banned.  

So its rankings are pure garbage (and would correlate less than 1% with any rankings of DACs done by people who actually listen to them).

@tee_dee Look at the tech in Mola Mola tamabqui (though old now, still unique). PS Audio, Playback Designs, and Chord with their FPGA approach, which I think is something that potentially can last for a very long time. This is new DAC technology. My next DAC will be an FPGA.

A 10 year-old DAC may not even have a USB input and if it did it is likely really bad, say unlike the USB on the modern Musetec 005 DAC. 

Anyone have thoughts on a dedicated DAC (eg. no headphone amp) vs. a multi-function unit? I haven't found extensive info on the pros/cons of such units? Also, I wanted to explore the longevity of DACs. It appears that DAC tech is ancient. While it has been around for years, the process itself has not evolved much. In other words, a 10 yr old DAC functions much like a current one. The features around the DAC essentially are the "upgrades" (eg. power supplies). If that's the case, I'm inclined to hang onto my Brooklyn. Not only that, but it also does full MQA--a feature many $3k+ DACs don't offer. A member here posted in this thread that the MSB select is older tech yet it seems to be among the echelon of high end DACs today. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Meant to say dac going directly into Don Sachs sounds lifeless without the preamp.

Have a PS Audio amp and preamp, dac sounds better without the preamp, dac sound much fuller with better clarity. . Have a Don Sachs Amp and preamp, dac sounds more lifeless. Have a Conrad Johnson cav45 S2 it has no preamp/control amp. It sounds big and full on Denafrips dac but can sound week if not enough gain on phono preamp or cartridge. I think only way to know is plug it up and turn up the volume and see what happens. Buying blind can be problematic.

I spent some time on youtube university learning more about DAC technologies. I found British Audiophile's review of the Spring 3 DAC interesting. I'm not an engineer by trade, but through my experience as a tech analyst in finance I understood most of his thoughts on the different tech inside the DAC.  I wonder how much time is spent understanding the guts of the DAC versus reading reviews. In any case, more food for thought. 🤔

They don't have advertising @carlsbad. Think what you may of them, they don't sell clicks. Spreading false information is not what good people do.​​​​

@thespeakerdude This has been my assessment of ASR for quite a while and I've posted it many times before.  As you can see in this thread, there are many that agree with me, in fact I'd say the majority of posters here agree with me.  There is a vocal minority that follow them like a cult.  I hope you eventually see them for what they are.  Best of luck.

@carlsbad making stuff up about other people is not a thing good people do.

@thespeakerdude No, I don't know how much a sensationist disinformation site makes per click.  Are you thinking of starting a competing website?

I am familiar with the Soul Note product story and philosophical/implementation approach. Near the antithesis of Benchmark designs. Curious to see how someone who is pleased with Benchmark will respond to Soul Note. There’s only one way to find out.

Charles

Without any advertising @carlsbad, can you tell me how much money @ASR makes per click?  I go there for the Klippel speaker measurements. Other than the dipole measurement they screwed up, their measurements are accurate.

ASR posts as many ridiculous claims as possible to generate clicks, which is how they make money.  Generally you'll be in good shape doing the opposite of what ASR recommends.  

Larry said, “I would guess Jason Borne would know how to answer this question. “

LOL.  I wouldn’t. 

I own three of the Dacs measured in ASR’s Best USB Dac Review. Regarding sound quality of each, their spot on the list reflects my view exactly. However, the high ranking SMSL Sanskrit ll lost function of it’s USB input soon after getting it, as did the remote. It is also the cheapest of the Dacs I own. It is the best sounding to my ear, but my other two have not had any problems. Very disappointing, but as said, "cheap is cheap"!

@yyzsantabarbara I am a dealer now.  Several people had reached out to me and about the brand so I bought a sample.  It is as good as they described.  

@verdantaudio That sounds interesting. If you are a dealer for that unit lest talk a bit more offline. I will send you a DM later.

@yyzsantabarbara i have not had the X-1 in for a detailed evaluation. I have heard it though and am familiar with Lumin’s sound.  The DAC I would say you must listen to is one I am about to write up.  The Soul Note D-2.  USB is unquestionably the best input.  There is a rich story behind the brand founders experience but that has led to some really incredible and natural sounding products.  You can add a 10 MHz clock to take performance to the next level.  The biggest issue is that it is DAC only so no volume control.  If you can live with that, it might be worth an audition.  

@verdantaudio Have you compared the Lumin X1 DAC in your shootout? I need to get another DAC and trying to find a reason not to get a second X1. Variety would be nice or maybe not, since I like the X1’s sound and features. The other DAC I have on my mind is the Musetec 005, which I have owned before and much cheaper and also like (but no streamer)

I am curious about other DACs in the higher priced bracket. Along with DACs that have USB as their best sounding input, like the Musetec 005. I will stream with fibre optical Sonore OpticalRendu (fibre-to-usb) if I do not get another X1.

I will go with a 2nd Benchmark LA4 preamp and currently the CODA #16 amp. Although, I may keep the CODA #16 in the office system and get a KRELL XD amp for the new DAC.

In my opinion, the DAC is the second most important component after the speakers - it is creating the signal you listen too.

Agree on this.

Good DACs cost a lot of money

I don't think this is the case in 2023, Thomas talks about an approach to DAC's that is "good enough" and I tend to agree with him. FWIW I do own a Sony Signature DAC that is their SOA, but the DAC in my Bluesound Node streamer is certainly "good enough":

So...I have tested dozens of DACs ranging from $300 to $30K.  What you really need when matching to an amp is to ensure the electrical properties (impedance, voltage, etc...) are a good match for the amplifier you are connecting to.  

It does not matter how it measures or does not measure if the output of the DAC is not well aligned with the amplifier it is connecting too.  A big advantage of a preamp is that it is going to alter the source signal and ensure it is well suited to the amp it is connected too, assuming that it is properly matched to your amp.  

In general, DACs have a fairly high output level and tend to work best when directly connected to amplifiers that have a low level of sensitivity.  You can have an amazing volume control, full preamp stage, etc... but if it is a poor match it will sound like crap.  

The right way to judge whether a DAC is a good fit or not is to start with what amp you have and then what speakers.  After that, in general, DACs with true preamp stages tend to outperform those with simple volume controls.  

Finally, reviewers tend to always be positive about performance of units.  You need to get what is driving positivity around a particular unit.  For example, one DAC you have mentioned excels with the use of HQ Player.  If you aren't going to use HQ Player, it is average. This helps eliminate buyers remorse. 

I can't offer advice on what to buy. I can offer advice on what to audition but need to learn a lot more about your listening habits and rest of your system.  

@batvac2 Good to know but beyond my skill level at this point. 😀

Thanks for all the knowledge sharing here. Now, on to the experiments...

Listening to music is a subjective experience. Measurements of meaning should significantly correlate with the subjective experience or at least some component of it. This, for me, is where the measurement argument runs out of steam. Measurements don’t tell me what I hear. I like certain sonic representations thru my stereo systems that are different. I have four systems that all sound different yet each is musically satisfying to me though I do like my reference best. I trust a few reviewers ears based on my listening to equipment they have reviewed. There is at least one Audiogon retailer who has yet to steer me wrong on a purchase. I could not tell you very many of the measurement specs on my equipment nor could I tell u what measurement explains why my PassLabs amp sounds different than my Ampzilla monoblocks.

Online empirical research? That’s oxymoronic. "Researching" online is the exact opposite of empirical research.

finally, a serious post in this train wreck of a forum thread LOL

kennyc

... my online empirical research shows a mixed bag ...

Online empirical research? That's oxymoronic. "Researching" online is the exact opposite of empirical research.

@teedee

One might assume that the simplest audio chain is sonically best, but my online empirical research shows a mixed bag - sometimes the sonics sound better with a preamplifier in the chain. Some surmise the preamp may somehow be conditioning the signal to be more favorable (ohms?) to the amp.

The HoloAudio May DAC would be my choice based on online reviews. Perhaps you can stretch to the Lampizator Baltic 3 DAC at $6.6k - reports that it’s sonics are way above it’s price point - it appears to be a very rare bargain.  

In my opinion, the DAC is the second most important component after the speakers - it is creating the signal you listen too.

Quality does in improve with price, but I don't know what price it stops being really noticeable.

Good DACs cost alot of money, and good preamps cost more than amp much of the time. I find volume control on the DAC chip to be much inferior to a preamp.

As for Amir, and ASR. As a person with "Scientist" in their job title, all I will say is that he is not doing science. Measurements are important because they can let you know if there is a design flaw, but measurements will not tell you what it sounds like.

@tee_dee 

I just listened to white flag by Dido. Lovely voice I added it to my playlist. It seems like the volume on her mic was up a bit maybe? Not piercing though. The parts  I didn’t really like as much are when the back up singers join in or maybe it’s an effect. Her voice is much better when it’s just her. Perhaps your electronics and or speakers are on the bright side. The room would also play a big factor if not treated. Happy listening 

Ron 

The RME ADI-2 DAC FS Desktop DAC & Headphone Amp DAC provides a lot of features which eliminate the use of a preamp, as long as you only listen to digital sources.

It is also actually made in Germany & not China.

Here is one of many reviews of this product:

https://www.techhive.com/article/1419397/rme-adi-2-dac-fs-review.html#:~:text=The%20REM%20ADI%2D2%20DAC%20FS%20offers%20amazing%20sound%20for,complexities%20of%20high%2Dend%20audio.

Back to the original question- this is an important topic for those with a single source trying to decide between going DAC-pre straight into a power amp versus adding a separate preamp or integrated. It is difficult to find reliable information about the preamp qualities of a DAC to predict this. In theory, the output impedance of the DAC and the input impedance of the amp should help decide, but this seems nonspecific in practice. Maybe it is marketing, but the separate preamp option offered for the Holo Spring would seem to fit the bill.

I’m curious how everyone evaluates a DAC disregarding the measurements. What is the hallmark of a good DAC? I suppose one could spend insane amounts of money but is there such a moneyball DAC?

Hmmmmm..... by listening? I understand you cannot possibly listen to all the DACs, but for starters:

1 - Determine your budget, how much you want to spend

2 - Do your own research, read reviews, users' impressions on public forums, read measurements (if that is your thing, nothing wrong with that)

3 - Get as much exposure as you can: friends with good systems, dealers showroom, audio shows, etc. etc.

4 - See if you can get a trial at home, or buy used at heavily discounted prices.

Now of course, this does not happen overnight, it takes years, and sticking with the hobby, but you can start somewhere small, and can always upgrade from there, when you find a better DAC, a good deal price wise, etc. etc.

P.S. you don’t have to spend "an insane amount of money" on a DAC. Good DACs exist at all price ranges. Noone is forcing you to to spend a lot of money. It also depends on the rest of your system. Matching what you have (speakers, amp, etc.)

@jjss49 

no need to further belabor this already tortured subject of measurement vs listening for dacs- the credible folks on this particular forum listen to music, evaluate gear through listening, measurements are of relatively minor significance

I agree 100%

Stop feeding the 🧌 

I really enjoy hearing detail and separation. That is I can hear each instrument and clear vocals.

just buy a chord qutest and be done, or even for less money, an rme adi-2 if you don’t care much about imaging (it is clear as a whistle and flat as a cardboard cutout figure)

no need to further belabor this already tortured subject of measurement vs listening for dacs- the credible folks on this particular forum listen to music, evaluate gear through listening, measurements are of relatively minor significance

@tee_dee - I think most people form their opinions primarily based on the reviews of other users.

@mastering92 I strictly stream Qobuz. No files here.

I'm curious how everyone evaluates a DAC disregarding the measurements. What is the hallmark of a good DAC? I suppose one could spend insane amounts of money but is there such a moneyball DAC?

I really enjoy hearing detail and separation. That is I can hear each instrument and clear vocals. That's why I find Dido tracks great.  Using a proper set up to listen to a track from my college days is such a satisfying experience.

@laoman   "You get what you pay for" . Wouldn't THAT be nice?  I hope you were joking. 

But probably not, if I see and read about some true audiophile nutcases. "Wishful thinking" or "I spent $300,000k on that turntable and I can hear every single dollar" is the driving force in the esoteric part of high fidelity. 

Take a $100k amplifier. Material cost shoiuld be in the $1-10k range. Leaves $90k for labor. At $100/hour (yes, that includes a hefty profit margin/overhead), that is 900 hours or 110 man days! 

@tee_dee 

I have one of her albums, but not that song. Although I've heard it on the rardio before. Send it to me. I'll fix it and send it back.

Check my profile for my YouTube channel/ just email me a link to a shared file.

@petaluman 

Have you compared them against each other, section by section?

This is something I'm trying to analyze, though it's quite difficult to match the volume. I find the Brooklyn plays louder. I'm unsure whether the detail I hear is a result of higher volume or simply better DAC on the Mytek.

Your advice is sound. I may go that route, though many reviews poo poo the P6's DAC.

@mastering92 

Which tracks? I’d love to fix them.

Try listening to White Flag by Dido. The initial 10 secs are beautiful. However the track is painful as the vocals kick in.

BTW, my streamer is connected via USB > Brooklyn DAC > P6 via XLR > A21+ via RCA.

jasonbourne52

2,738 posts

02-03-2023 at 01:03am 

I'd rather trust ASR's rankings than the subjective blather here.

Oh good! Go back there to ASR. The world will be a better place. What are you doing here? Why are you here in this “horrible subjective blather place”?? Polluting every single adult conversation with your childish (or senile, rather ) comments 

I don't know much about the Mytek line, but they have an interesting approach.  The Mytek offers the choice of analog & digital volume control.  Indeed, there seem to be a lot of similarities between the Brooklyn & P6.  Both have preamp facilities (additional inputs, including phono sections, volume control) as well as DACs (both appear to be based on the ESS 9018, even).  Have you compared them against each other, section by section?

The P6 is much more flexible, with more inputs, home theater bypass, bass management, etc.  If these have value to you and the DAC sections sound acceptably close, consider selling the Mytek & using the P6 DAC while you ponder your next acquisition.  If the Mytek works for you as a standalone preamp, you could do the reverse.

If all of your sources are digital, source switching really occurs at the DAC.  In that case, a DAC with a satisfactory volume control could be all the preamp you need

@decooney 

after playing the dac for a while it was one of the most sterile and boring sounding dac units I’ve ever tried or owned. The dac got returned for a full refund, thankfully. Agree, you cannot pick a component by measurements alone if you care about how it sounds too.

+1, Live and learn. There’s no better teacher than experience.

Charles

My pre is a Freya + do this allows me to add tubes or not depending on the sound I want. Even though I never use with out the tube stage it is nice to have the option. IFi dac’s have a very good amp stage and you can buy dac’s with tubes if that is your sound choice. Does not mean you have to add a pre amp. Listen to what you like don’t feel the need to chase or catch the rabbit. Enjoy the music!

I read the MSB select manual; the OEM suggests direct to amp connection.

as dacs go it is a bit of an older model now, but my beloved msb analog dac functions not only as a streaming dac (with lan card) but also has an extra set of analog inputs (for a phono stage for example)... it works brilliantly going into power amps - with both rca and xlr outputs, and a terrific remote control