Analogue front end. You want more weight, scale and dynamics.Where do you start upgrading?


Is it the table, arm or cartridge, or perhaps phono stage? Assuming you have no clear weak links. Maybe even motor controller ?

inna

Not sure about weight, but when I installed Audience front row phono cables between my VPI Classic and PSAudio Stellar pre, the difference was absolutely startling, scale and dynamics particularly. Best cable switch I ever experienced. Expensive but so worth it on a good setup.

I have been chasing more weight and scale for awhile. First, I went from belt drive to idler wheel and then to a good direct drive design. Then, I changed tonearms, which improved micro dynamics, but not weight and scale. Next, I experimented with vacuum tubes. Lately, it has been interconnects. Each of the above has made a positive difference. Cartridges have their individual sonic traits too. I am currently listening to an album with a Miyajima Zero which is awesome if you are looking for weight, scale, and presence with mono LP’s.

What Turntable? What Arm? What Cartridge? What Phono pre amp?

We need a little more info as to what your currently using.

 

Matt M

Building a system that gives you what YOU want out of the system is a long term project that results from first deciding what you like.  That means developing the capacity to hear in your subconscious the way you want to hear it. Then you try out different components, to include power cords and interconnects, that get you step by step to the sound that you are imagining.  No one can tell you in advance exactly what choices are going to get you where you want to go. There is no substitute for trial and error.  Once you get a semblance of your imagined goal, you still trade out bits and pieces for those last few percentiles of what it is you are after. So, in my opinion, no one can tell you where to start upgrading.  Do it yourself.

Lewn is 100% right. It's a personal trial and error thing. Always will be. It doesn't matter what part of your system you are trying to optimize, it will always take multiple attempts to get the sound your ears desire. And it will take years, and years. That's why I always say enjoy the journey.

pick muscular players… a generic answer..

or more specific like Kuzma vs Lyra..but just my opinion

I think, unless you missed something, wrong cables or tubes in phono preamp, as an example, there is no way around it - you have to upgrade the table. Then..you go from there.

@inna 

 

Your question is about broad brushed as they can get. Lewm provided a great response as only you can ascertain where to start to improve a system that already has equally efficient sound characteristics across the spectrum of hardware. That being said, you can experiment with any of the variables you listed above and see if you notice any profound changes to your liking. Swapping out any of the equipment for a less costly or a more extreme cost alternative “may” net some changes that could be to your liking.
 

If you currently have good synergy, leave well enough alone…well, in this hobby it is hard not to. Therefore, pick any one of the criteria you feel comfortable exploring and change as needed. If your phono stage is tube based, you can alter the flavor, or dynamic expression of the sound by simply swapping tubes. If it was me, I would start there first, especially if you are overall satisfied with the sound of the system.
 

Cartridges are all over the spectrum in terms of price, quality, and sound characteristics. There are so many lower priced cartridges that play great and can go head to head with much higher priced cartridges that you can spend endless time and money experimenting. What stands out in cartridges is the way they convey the expression of music in conjunction with the totality, I.e.,  combination of the system components. Some may like the sound expression of a lower priced cartridge that exhibits a narrower playing field alluding to a comfortable small club setting, while others might yearn for a cartridge that has wider separation yielding a much larger space. Cartridges can be more robust in the mids and/or highs. Some prefer that, perhaps due to hearing loss, or desire to hear infinite details. Others, may want to just have a mild and mellow listening session without the fuss of all the details exploding around them possibly distracting from hearing the essence of the music. Too many variables to discuss here. If you look at any previous posts, you can locate lots of user experiences of the types of hardware you mentioned. 

So much depends on getting the parts to work together to achieve the whole that you want.  Lewm is correct that it is a personal trial process.  I don't think you can do a whole lot to add weight, scale and dynamics by choices made with source components; that is mainly a product of room acoustics, choice of speaker and then choice of amplifier that is compatible with the speaker choice (ultimately, I find very large horn systems with low-powered tube amps are best at what you are prioritizing).

But, of course, the right choice of source components can help, or at least not detract, from what you are after.  I would look first at the choice of cartridge.  With the passing of Koetsu, it is a bit harder to find cartridges with an extraordinary sense of weight and scale that still have decent dynamics.  But, assuming you find that, it is critical to find a compatible tonearm.  With the Koetsu, that arm turned out to be one that is of somewhat higher mass than typical arms.  Compatible arm/cartridge is a big deal for what you are after.

Generalities about turntable types are hard to make because it is somewhat hard to reliably characterize the sound of different types, and tables differ in performance based on such external factors as the support they are on, how much the table is being relied upon to provide isolation from the environment (e.g., footfall problems), etc.  

Excuse my ignorance, but isn't weight, scale and dynamics all part of the phono-pre, pre-amp and power amp? Do your other sources give you the sound you are looking for?

On my system, all the sources sound about the same, in a blind test not sure I could 100% tell the different sources apart.

Looked up that suggested cable, it's $3k, it better make a huge difference, it cost more than my entire TT.  IMHO, cables are a tweak, not a drastic shift like chaining components.

To get what you are looking for, would it not be only better spent, getting a new phono-pre, cartridge, or even a EQ to put in the chain? 

Big +1’s to @lewm and ​​​​@tomic601 here. Throwing more and more money to "upgrade" into increasingly exotic components isn’t the panacea you think it is.

No, the source contributes greatly, mswale.

As an example, if I replace my Nottingham Spacedeck with Nottingham Dais or Anna Log, or even with one step up Hyperspace, besides possibly other improvements I will get more of what we are talking about. With everything else remaining the same.

You start with basic things, and that is turntable itself, not an arm, not a cartridge, not a phono stage. Turntable and electricity.

As for preamp/amp and speakers, that’s another subject.

I don't think you can aurally separate a turntable from the tonearm/cartridge, or at least very few of us can, because you would have to take the same tonearm and cartridge en bloc and move them from turntable A to turntable B, and back to A, in order to get a bead on what is the specific contribution of the turntable. And of course the downstream components have to remain constant.

Of course, that's exactly what I meant, everything else remains the same. That's the reason why I don't plan to upgrade the front end soon, I would have to upgrade everything, starting with the table, if I wanted big improvement. And I would want big improvement or why upgrade at all ?

I found that VPI turntables /  arms have very substantial weight and scale. While sprung turntables are often described as lively, VPI and other heavy mass unsprung tables seems to have much greater weight in presentation, Then, the higher the investment along these lines will net better dynamics, and other good attributes. 

I heard that some Nottingham fans prefer Spacedeck to more expensive and heavier Nottinghams because it strikes the right balance between solid presentation and liveliness.

i do plan to run that experiment this Summer w same Triplaner arm / Kuzma cartridge / armboard on DP-75 vs Brinkmann Bardo. TT isolation same HRS, captive cable remains constant… VTA will change…. i dont really expect the heavens to part…. but…..

Brinkmann offers both direct drive and belt drive turntables, that's unusual for one company to make both. Their best are belt drive, if I remember correctly.

And I’ve had the same FR64fx arm, with a few of the same cartridges, mounted across a couple SOTAs and a couple of the CA Innovation decks. Some of the same cartridges again mounted on VPIs, albeit with VPI’s arms - didn’t try and mount an FR there.

There are indeed sonic differences between decks, but it’s harder to parse out how much of that is reflecting the tables’ energy management versus the isolation you’ve got on hand. It would be best to do these comparisons on solid concrete slab, which I didn’t have. And of course, table should ideally be positioned quite far from speakers. The CA and VPI decks are both extremely dependent on isolation for optimal performance, and they’re each reactive / problematic in different frequency ranges. The CA’s in subsonics, and the VPIs in audible bass. That’s where I suspect some of the "ballsy", bass-heavy and "dark" sound of VPI comes from. SOTAs are really nice in that they have amazing isolation built in. You still need them on a rigid stand, but they solve so many problems on their own. Bass energy is very hard to isolate against without properly tuned springs or repositioning.

Once you take care of isolation (as much as feasible), the sonic differences between tables are notable and meaningful, but not night-and-day. These are all very well built, premium decks - we’re not talking about entry-level MDF planks. Your transducer choice and its match to phono stage (particularly MC stage) weighs in much more, IMO.

On a spectrum - VPI’s were the darkest sounding for me, CA Innovations quite clean / neutral (living up to the brand name), and SOTAs just a tad on the warm side. I enjoyed the VPIs most with cartridges that I would find just a touch too "treble happy" on the other decks. From what I can extrapolate, the VPI arms seem sonically very much of the same vein as their tables - especially the 3D and Fatboys. I actually ended up preferring the metal unipivot arms as I felt those struck a better balance, and were less reactive to stray bass energy.

Yes, many audiophiles / reviewers tend to upgrade the whole kit & kaboodle at once - so it’s impossible to "isolate" the TT’s contributions in that scenario.

@inna Ya, i might hunt down a Balance for giggles … but what would be more likely is a RonT power supply, Bardo heavy… or as @mulveling so astutely points out locating the TT outside the listening room whilst hiring a surfer girl Friday to deal with spinning records… BTW, ive done this and the variables in trade are MUCH better isolation vs a 1 M XLR from phono to 5 M XLR… which w a silver cable is not taco money….

I should clarify, experiment was conducted sans surfer GF as that would have cosst me half of everything 

mulveling, you may be right that given proper isolation cartridge/phono stage unit becomes more important than table itself. Or it will vary wildly.

 

The biggest change to a turntable is always the cartridge. Always. You will need to ensure that the cartridge is compatible with the tonearm and phono stage, SUT and/or head amp.

The second biggest change to improve your analog setup is... speakers. I know, controversial. But you asked for the biggest change and the first and last transducers always make the biggest impact on the sound of your system.

Direct drive versus previous belt drive tt’s did it for me.
which was Direct Drive ?

@martinl07d Assume you're speaking to me. Belt drives I ran included highly modified Thorens, stock Rega's, a few VPI. My direct drive is Technics SP10 Mk II with custom build  nearly 100lb plinth Stillpoints for support, Jelco 12" kinife edge bearing arm. This sits on nearly 100lb stand  with 1/2" aluminum top plate with vibration sink on concrete fireplace hearth on suspended floor with floor jacks for support.  Huge amount of mass loading for this DD tt gave me the slam, bass extension and articulation,  pace I could never get with the belt drives.

Recently added a SUT (Zesto) to my Rega Naia/Aphelion2 rig, and that brought immediate changes in oomph to the sound.

In terms of physics, it should not make an iota of difference, but it does. Take that from someone who has never heard a difference in any cable. 

Weight, scale and dynamics will improve with better turntable isolation if you don’t already have that sorted out. That happened for me when I went from an isoAcoustics Delos to a HRS R3x isolation base. That was an eye-opening game changer and really sold me on the importance of mechanical isolation for a turntable.

 No doubt. HRS are expensive products, but if you have high end turntable..

Mass loaded turntables are known for their ample bass weight.  Better scale and dynamics are more a function of preamp/amp and/or speakers.  A cartridge can sound faster like the lightweight assembly in the MY SONIC LAB - Ultra Eminent Ex MC Cartridge, but that isn’t what the OP is asking.

Although the OP claims that 60watts is plenty, it really depends if the speaker is efficient enough including impedance considerations.  Typical wattage is ~150-300wpc for average sensitivity speakers.

It all starts at the source, which is what you put it on, as pointed out above HRS stands DO make a difference, anything to minimize vibration is a good thing.

I have 2 HRS stands and plan on getting another one, after that the turntable>tonearm>cart is the rank, get the best sounding table you can. even with a budget cart will do better than a lesser table with a better cart. I prove that to myself at home with multiple table/arm/cart set ups.

Yeah, assuming that the cartridge is reasonably good, as counter-intuitive as it is, cartridge is the least important element in turntable set up. I have the impression that many people get it wrong and prematurely upgrade cartridges. Similar things happen with speakers. You have no idea how your speakers can sound until you give them the right signal.

I recently put my first MC cart on my TT, a Hana ML. While I was very impressed with the top end detail, I felt the lower midrange weight and bass impact were lacking. My phonostage (Sutherland 20/20) gain moves in 6db steps, 58db to 64db at the top end. While 58db sounded best, various dance and rock albums felt a little too laid back to me. I started to suspect that maybe this cart/phono combo wasn’t the best match, and the ideal gain might actually be 60 or 62 db as 64 was clearly too much. 
In debating my next move I considered a new phono, a different cart, and SUTs. After some demos I brought home an SUT and got things set up. This instantly brought the low end impact and lower weight bass back into the mix. Exactly what I was hoping for. Also seemed to smooth out some occasional edgy highs as well, making rough recordings much more enjoyable. 

That’s what worked for me. I suggest really digging into your specific equipment matching and trying some things to find what works for you. Best of luck! 

Yeah, assuming that the cartridge is reasonably good, as counter-intuitive as it is, cartridge is the least important element in turntable set up. I have the impression that many people get it wrong and prematurely upgrade cartridges. Similar things happen with speakers. You have no idea how your speakers can sound until you give them the right signal.

There is nothing "wrong" with picking cartridge as the #1 priority. It can work out great - as it did for me when I added a Koetsu Onyx onto my 1990s SOTA Star. It was probably the most satisfying single upgrade I could have done at that time. There are a million ways to go about analog. Feel free to pick a religious stance on this, but the reality across multiple systems is far more malleable. Same goes for the speakers example.

Religious stance ? OK, so be it, I don't mind. But yes there is more than one way to lead to the same outcome. I just don't see tinkering with turntable based source as an art form and my approach is simple and straightforward. I will do artistry with tubes and speakers.

In other words, I see cartridge as a reel to reel deck's playback head. Nothing more, nothing less.

@inna You might try the platter pad. Many/most turntables don't have one that really does the job.

The job, in case its not clear, is to control resonance in the vinyl. To do that the pad has to be able to absorb energy at all frequencies (not just some) and to do that the most effectively it must be the same hardness as the LP.

Its really a good idea to damp the platter as well and a good platter pad can do that too. The difference in sound is exactly what you are asking for in your opening post.

Oracle makes a platter pad that does this job very well. Pads that don't work are made of cork, rubber, felt, carbon fiber and also raw platters made of metal. That's a lot of platter pads!

The thing is if the LP talks back to the cartridge you simply can't fix it anywhere downstream starting with the cartridge itself. So this has to be fixed first.

Ralph, I have Boston Audio graphite mat on my Nottingham Spacedeck, and the difference with original felt mat is quite big.

This thread is not about my set up. I my case, I would have to upgrade the table first and then the rest, so it's good enough for now.

I don’t use a platter pad. Well, maybe I do. It’s a 70mm POM platter pad sitting on a 15mm stainless steel platter. Right @mulvelingcheeky

 

With the acquisition of a London pickup. Then you will need an arm that can handle the mechanical energy it produces (a stiff arm tube and strong bearing design and build).

 

Dwette,

You have a platter that is designed to transfer the vibrations imparted in the record by the stylus tracking the groove, precisely how Atmasphere described.  POM was chosen because it matches the characteristics of vinyl so energy is transferred readily from the record to the platter instead of being reflected back at the boundary.

A clamping system can further improve the transfer of energy, but whether this will improve the sound is a matter of system synergy and personal raste.

@larryi 

A clamping system can further improve the transfer of energy, but whether this will improve the sound is a matter of system synergy and personal raste.

I have the Clearaudio Statement clamp and outer limit ring, and it does sound better to use them.

I have Boston Audio graphite mat on my Nottingham Spacedeck, and the difference with original felt mat is quite big.

This thread is not about my set up. I my case, I would have to upgrade the table first and then the rest, so it's good enough for now.

@inna Is it for someone else (emphasis added)?

I read the paper at the Boston Audio site. IMO there was some stuff in it that didn't seem to add up. In particular they mentioned something about overdamping, causing the sound to be 'bland, lifeless sound'. 

You can't overdamp the LP. You can very easily damp certain frequencies while others are damped less. That results in tonal aberrations and leads to the myth that the LP was somehow 'overdamped' which is impossible.

One way things often go awry is if the platter pad is a different durometer (hardness) than the LP. They must be the same otherwise some frequencies will be reflected back to the LP.

The article is critical of acrylic. The thing about acrylic is it can be too hard or too soft depending on how its made. It can also be just right. Hence my support of the Oracle product.

Now there is one other thing you might be able to look at. The platter itself should be damped. If you get it right you can walk up to the turntable and thwock the platter while its playing and not hear it in the speaker. If doing that results in a sound that means airborne bass notes are affecting it too. If teh bass isn't right nothing else is either.

There are materials that can be used to damp a platter. Each platter is different so its on a case by case basis. Technics bothers to damp the platter of their SL1200G (the old ones were not damped). We went through a bit of work damping the platter of our model 208. Since there was a good way to apply it, we were able to use a 3M damping compound called DP108 which is a 2 part epoxy that cures soft. It was very effective in our case but won't work in every application.

If you can really get the turntable and platter properly damped that's really where you start. To that end the turntable should be perched on a competent anti-vibration platform.

Without really thinking it through systematically, I kind of went through a similar thought process to this several years ago, which I will try to remember and report here as a case study.  It all started with a VPI Prime.  It came with stellar reviews and I was all excited about it, but the thing really was meh.  So what to do?  Well right away I figured out that it was off speed so I bought a Roadrunner/Eagle tach and digital controller from Phoenix to stabilize the motor.  Then I talked to Harry and bought a second arm, the second one metal which sounded better and facilitated cartridge changes. Counter-Intuitives from SoundSmith made cartridge changes easier.  Then I added 3 belts, which tightened up the pace and timing.  Then Harry developed the stabilizer mod for the arms, which helped.  All of this did improve the overall performance, the weight, scale and dynamics of the turntable if you will.  But I never felt like it reached the level of performance that I wanted.  The solution was to trade it for the just introduced HW-40, which has met or exceeded my expectations ever since.  While all that was going on I also had an HW-19 in an older system that met expectations as well as a Technics SL1200 in a less demanding roll both still with me today.  

Ralph, I am sure you are right, but I only compared Boston mat to the felt mat and the improvement was striking, in fact. I bought that mat, to begin with, because almost every Nottingham Spacedeck owner highly recommended it, and they were right. Perhaps, there are better mats for this table, I just never explored this further.