Not sure about weight, but when I installed Audience front row phono cables between my VPI Classic and PSAudio Stellar pre, the difference was absolutely startling, scale and dynamics particularly. Best cable switch I ever experienced. Expensive but so worth it on a good setup.
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I have been chasing more weight and scale for awhile. First, I went from belt drive to idler wheel and then to a good direct drive design. Then, I changed tonearms, which improved micro dynamics, but not weight and scale. Next, I experimented with vacuum tubes. Lately, it has been interconnects. Each of the above has made a positive difference. Cartridges have their individual sonic traits too. I am currently listening to an album with a Miyajima Zero which is awesome if you are looking for weight, scale, and presence with mono LP’s. |
Building a system that gives you what YOU want out of the system is a long term project that results from first deciding what you like. That means developing the capacity to hear in your subconscious the way you want to hear it. Then you try out different components, to include power cords and interconnects, that get you step by step to the sound that you are imagining. No one can tell you in advance exactly what choices are going to get you where you want to go. There is no substitute for trial and error. Once you get a semblance of your imagined goal, you still trade out bits and pieces for those last few percentiles of what it is you are after. So, in my opinion, no one can tell you where to start upgrading. Do it yourself. |
Your question is about broad brushed as they can get. Lewm provided a great response as only you can ascertain where to start to improve a system that already has equally efficient sound characteristics across the spectrum of hardware. That being said, you can experiment with any of the variables you listed above and see if you notice any profound changes to your liking. Swapping out any of the equipment for a less costly or a more extreme cost alternative “may” net some changes that could be to your liking. If you currently have good synergy, leave well enough alone…well, in this hobby it is hard not to. Therefore, pick any one of the criteria you feel comfortable exploring and change as needed. If your phono stage is tube based, you can alter the flavor, or dynamic expression of the sound by simply swapping tubes. If it was me, I would start there first, especially if you are overall satisfied with the sound of the system. Cartridges are all over the spectrum in terms of price, quality, and sound characteristics. There are so many lower priced cartridges that play great and can go head to head with much higher priced cartridges that you can spend endless time and money experimenting. What stands out in cartridges is the way they convey the expression of music in conjunction with the totality, I.e., combination of the system components. Some may like the sound expression of a lower priced cartridge that exhibits a narrower playing field alluding to a comfortable small club setting, while others might yearn for a cartridge that has wider separation yielding a much larger space. Cartridges can be more robust in the mids and/or highs. Some prefer that, perhaps due to hearing loss, or desire to hear infinite details. Others, may want to just have a mild and mellow listening session without the fuss of all the details exploding around them possibly distracting from hearing the essence of the music. Too many variables to discuss here. If you look at any previous posts, you can locate lots of user experiences of the types of hardware you mentioned. |
So much depends on getting the parts to work together to achieve the whole that you want. Lewm is correct that it is a personal trial process. I don't think you can do a whole lot to add weight, scale and dynamics by choices made with source components; that is mainly a product of room acoustics, choice of speaker and then choice of amplifier that is compatible with the speaker choice (ultimately, I find very large horn systems with low-powered tube amps are best at what you are prioritizing). But, of course, the right choice of source components can help, or at least not detract, from what you are after. I would look first at the choice of cartridge. With the passing of Koetsu, it is a bit harder to find cartridges with an extraordinary sense of weight and scale that still have decent dynamics. But, assuming you find that, it is critical to find a compatible tonearm. With the Koetsu, that arm turned out to be one that is of somewhat higher mass than typical arms. Compatible arm/cartridge is a big deal for what you are after. Generalities about turntable types are hard to make because it is somewhat hard to reliably characterize the sound of different types, and tables differ in performance based on such external factors as the support they are on, how much the table is being relied upon to provide isolation from the environment (e.g., footfall problems), etc. |
Excuse my ignorance, but isn't weight, scale and dynamics all part of the phono-pre, pre-amp and power amp? Do your other sources give you the sound you are looking for? On my system, all the sources sound about the same, in a blind test not sure I could 100% tell the different sources apart. Looked up that suggested cable, it's $3k, it better make a huge difference, it cost more than my entire TT. IMHO, cables are a tweak, not a drastic shift like chaining components. To get what you are looking for, would it not be only better spent, getting a new phono-pre, cartridge, or even a EQ to put in the chain? |
No, the source contributes greatly, mswale. As an example, if I replace my Nottingham Spacedeck with Nottingham Dais or Anna Log, or even with one step up Hyperspace, besides possibly other improvements I will get more of what we are talking about. With everything else remaining the same. You start with basic things, and that is turntable itself, not an arm, not a cartridge, not a phono stage. Turntable and electricity. As for preamp/amp and speakers, that’s another subject. |
I don't think you can aurally separate a turntable from the tonearm/cartridge, or at least very few of us can, because you would have to take the same tonearm and cartridge en bloc and move them from turntable A to turntable B, and back to A, in order to get a bead on what is the specific contribution of the turntable. And of course the downstream components have to remain constant. |
I found that VPI turntables / arms have very substantial weight and scale. While sprung turntables are often described as lively, VPI and other heavy mass unsprung tables seems to have much greater weight in presentation, Then, the higher the investment along these lines will net better dynamics, and other good attributes. |
And I’ve had the same FR64fx arm, with a few of the same cartridges, mounted across a couple SOTAs and a couple of the CA Innovation decks. Some of the same cartridges again mounted on VPIs, albeit with VPI’s arms - didn’t try and mount an FR there. There are indeed sonic differences between decks, but it’s harder to parse out how much of that is reflecting the tables’ energy management versus the isolation you’ve got on hand. It would be best to do these comparisons on solid concrete slab, which I didn’t have. And of course, table should ideally be positioned quite far from speakers. The CA and VPI decks are both extremely dependent on isolation for optimal performance, and they’re each reactive / problematic in different frequency ranges. The CA’s in subsonics, and the VPIs in audible bass. That’s where I suspect some of the "ballsy", bass-heavy and "dark" sound of VPI comes from. SOTAs are really nice in that they have amazing isolation built in. You still need them on a rigid stand, but they solve so many problems on their own. Bass energy is very hard to isolate against without properly tuned springs or repositioning. Once you take care of isolation (as much as feasible), the sonic differences between tables are notable and meaningful, but not night-and-day. These are all very well built, premium decks - we’re not talking about entry-level MDF planks. Your transducer choice and its match to phono stage (particularly MC stage) weighs in much more, IMO. On a spectrum - VPI’s were the darkest sounding for me, CA Innovations quite clean / neutral (living up to the brand name), and SOTAs just a tad on the warm side. I enjoyed the VPIs most with cartridges that I would find just a touch too "treble happy" on the other decks. From what I can extrapolate, the VPI arms seem sonically very much of the same vein as their tables - especially the 3D and Fatboys. I actually ended up preferring the metal unipivot arms as I felt those struck a better balance, and were less reactive to stray bass energy. |
@inna Ya, i might hunt down a Balance for giggles … but what would be more likely is a RonT power supply, Bardo heavy… or as @mulveling so astutely points out locating the TT outside the listening room whilst hiring a surfer girl Friday to deal with spinning records… BTW, ive done this and the variables in trade are MUCH better isolation vs a 1 M XLR from phono to 5 M XLR… which w a silver cable is not taco money…. |
The biggest change to a turntable is always the cartridge. Always. You will need to ensure that the cartridge is compatible with the tonearm and phono stage, SUT and/or head amp. The second biggest change to improve your analog setup is... speakers. I know, controversial. But you asked for the biggest change and the first and last transducers always make the biggest impact on the sound of your system. |
@martinl07d Assume you're speaking to me. Belt drives I ran included highly modified Thorens, stock Rega's, a few VPI. My direct drive is Technics SP10 Mk II with custom build nearly 100lb plinth Stillpoints for support, Jelco 12" kinife edge bearing arm. This sits on nearly 100lb stand with 1/2" aluminum top plate with vibration sink on concrete fireplace hearth on suspended floor with floor jacks for support. Huge amount of mass loading for this DD tt gave me the slam, bass extension and articulation, pace I could never get with the belt drives. |
Weight, scale and dynamics will improve with better turntable isolation if you don’t already have that sorted out. That happened for me when I went from an isoAcoustics Delos to a HRS R3x isolation base. That was an eye-opening game changer and really sold me on the importance of mechanical isolation for a turntable. |