Am I right for this forum?

I was warned to leave this forum from the beginning. Hung around, learned, argued, tried to separate the wheat from the chaff. Developed a system for around 25,000 mostly used. Am very happy with it and the Sq. Now if I could get my wife on board.  Main gripe here is sometimes inclusion of politics

@snilf ....if you've still doubts about self and your 'audio bent' (ignoring 'phile' and the connotations of such)....

You Belong.  The fact that you've not only faced some slings 'n shots and hung in is one characteristic needed here.....

#2: You personally, and with the family, Play Music IRL.  Light years ahead of many here....mho.
I don't sadly....don't have the muscle memory for the art....

@mapman ....OK, 'Wiz....since you've got your wand in hand, I'll take a Lotto win...pulease..... ;)

SOTA = What many of us can't rationalize...BUT it drags up the mid$ stuff in the long haul in my 50ish years (Class of '69: The only year worth a snicker....*L*)

I miss MCarbon to some degree; others that have left for 'other venues' or just the raw end of time.....as well.  One can only hope that some do as well....

OP, I'd understand if some consider yours unruly as a troll-ish sort....

...it's the 'why and/or what for' that may confuse....

Don't forget to return, J ;)

@dougsat Nailed it in my mind. I will add that any music played anyway makes me happier than I had been without it. Am I an audiophile? Don't care.

We need people like you.  I often think about how wealthy this group is.  However, I am not going to sucked to splitting hairs.

I wonder what happened to Miller Carbon.  I believe he was banned for awhile and came back.  I think he knows a tremendous amount and he belongs here.

If you love your system, that is all that matters and enjoy.

Enjoy until you hear something that you feel sounds better.

That is when you have a choice to make.

Happy Listening.

@immatthewj

But to that point, would you consider the Maranzt SA10 SACDp to be expensive at around 7k msrp?

Absolutely! I have the SA8001. $899msrp. What is it about the SA10 that makes it worth 6100 more?

Full disclosure: My SA8001 failed after 18 years of service. Currently looking for a replacement. Probably the marantz CD6007. Finally giving up on SACD.

Cheers

The 'Art' is reproducing recorded music.  The best it can be done with electronic boxes, today,  is very low on the price pole.  The Marantz Yamaha thingy.

@rok2id  , in my experience there is equipment that reproduces music much better than equipment low on the price pole.  I am going to leave it at that . . . except to say that I am not familiar with Yamaha's line of equipment but I know for a fact that some of Maranzt's equiment can get relatively expensive.  Meaning that 'expensive' is another relative term.   But to that point, would you consider the Maranzt SA10 SACDp to be expensive at around 7k msrp? 

@chrshanl37 

@Immathewj you are of course correct it’s cue not “que” and I knew that, not sure why I did that but whatever.

I believe you have mistaken me for someone else.  I do not recall ever commenting upon that. 

Garbage out of speakers in an acoustically treated room is still garbage. However, in this context, ’garbage’ is a relative term.

To the OP’s topic:

Using "definition of audiophile" as a search engine seems to yield this definition (or the equivalent) from about all the hits that came back for me, "a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction."

To me that means that although someone who listens to a system consisting of significantly expensive electronics and speakers may find the sound of a system consisting of much cheaper gear to be (if they are being honest) garbage, the person listening to the more affordable system can still meet the criteria of an audiophile because the definition of enthusiasm is not dependent solely upon the quality the of gear (and therefor the SQ) one is listening to, but how critically one is listening and how appreciative one is to the actual SQ one is listening to.

However, one who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction will quite likely take steps as often as possible to increase the quality of his or her play back which will, among other things, include upgrading the quality of his or her gear. Some will be more obsessive than others in this endeavor.

@jastralfu  you are of course correct it’s cue not “que” and I knew that, not sure why I did that but whatever. To the op, I meant no disrespect by my comment and I apologize if it stung. I was only trying to inject a bit of light hearted humor into what looked to me as a troll post. The idea that anyone would want or need affirmation from other members of this community to tell them if they are an audiophile seemed rather ridiculous to me. That and the mention of fond memories of millercarbon (one of the biggest trolls ever) just made me think you were trolling.

So again my apologies to you sir. Btw you have a beautiful room and sure that you enjoy many hours of both listening and creating music. Hats off to you.

@immatthewj

The 'Art' is reproducing recorded music.  The best it can be done with electronic boxes, today,  is very low on the price pole.  The Marantz Yamaha thingy.  The only thing we can DO, is to strive to perfectly get the info from source to the speaker.  Compare output of source and input to speaker, it don't cost much.

Much more important is the room, speakers, and speaker position. Whenever I hear a system, the main thing I hear is the size of the room.  In person or online.  Its so obvious.

Cheers

Making music sound more real and involving should not be seen as a character defect. I can lead to an addictive chase without end, or at least ending with the ole empty pockets. My experience has often been an increasing respect for the artist's efforts and the emotional involvement brought by more closely reproducing their intentions. I certainly wouldn't be an audiophile without being a music lover. What would be the point?

I am always reminded  of the time in the early mornings waiting for the bus inside the hallway where we waited. The sound of Ben E King singing Stand by Me. And tuning that dial on my own little hand held radio so the station would come through better. Same thing.

As to the OP, you belong if you want to.

The simple response is that yes, you should be part of this forum, and are critical to it’s viability since you are a music lover not afflicted with obsessions of an audiophiles persistent pursuit of achieving “absolute sound”.  A music lover can listen to music on any system and be immersed in emotion the brings a tear as the soul it touched.  This is the cornerstone to the foundation of being an audiophile   To borrow from the writer Gibran from the prose poem The Prophet Section On Music to help better define this cornerstone:

Music is the quivering of a string, charged with waves from the upper air, it penetrates your hearing, its echo emerges from your eyes in a burning tear, and from your lips as they sigh for a beloved being far away, or it utters a moan caused by the string of history and the fangs of destiny.

Abracadabra: I mapman the magnificent golden eared musical enchanter, hereby decree: you are now an official audiophile!🪄🪄🪄🪄

Sim sala bim: Magjc happens here….Yee ha!

This is another common-place fact which is often misleading in audio and which is used in dac marketing ...😊

Another sad fact: "Garbage in/garbage out." Garbage in an accoustically treated environment is still garbage.

What is the source?

It is not the dac nor the turntable as this "garbage in garbage out" sentence may suggest ...😊

Why ?

This sentence dont come from acoustics... It comes from the computer industry...

In audio then in acoustics, the source is the set of acoustics trade-off choices makes by the recording engineer, which your gear will convey in analog digital reproduction, these choices must be TRANSLATED through your system in the room for your ears... There is not a mere  digital  transport and reproduction here but a translation of acoustics information  from an acoustic environment through another one using all gear pieces as a conveyor toward the speakers/room/ears ...

Then " garbage in garbage out" is not a so useful expression for describing the right or not so right acoustics translation from the live recording Hall into you room ...😁

Dac and turntable matter yes, for sure, but way less than the room/ears parameters controlled or not controlled ...

Anyway as demonstrated by Edgar Choueiri all stereo system are defective and must be corrected to give a TOP experience... This is an acoustics fact too ...

Acoustics science rule audio not software engineering ...

@immatthewj either that or affirming that he belongs in this forum.

@immatthewj someone commented “cue Stuart Smalley”.  The OP wrote that the comment stung a bit.  I responded that he should ignore them.

Ah.  Okay.  I take it that the original Stuart Smiley comment had to do with positive affirmations about a system that did not cost a ton of money?

You are blessed with a family that loves music as much as you do. I would say that the money you have invested in your system seems to be all you need with the other aspects of your life as they are. It seems as if there are so many different opinions as to what makes a person an audiophile. So many are shaped and molded to meet the hopes and expectations of how each individual  wants to present themselves. I wouldn't give this another thought. 

Another sad fact:  "Garbage in/garbage out."  Garbage in an accoustically treated environment is still garbage.

@immatthewj someone commented “cue Stuart Smalley”.  The OP wrote that the comment stung a bit.  I responded that he should ignore them.

You cannot know how good will sound your gear (nevermind his price ) BEFORE it was rightfully embedded in the three working dimensions : electrical,mechanical and acoustical...

Then repeating a useless common place fact which is trivial truth as the better we pay the better the design you miss the message and the lesson of acoustics learning and other basic knowledge because you put your attention on price tags ..

We buy what our budget can afford... But we cannot know the acoustics potential of a system/room BEFORE we learn how to adress it ...

Any piece of gear and more so a system in a room cannot give his potential optimal without adressing the basic...

The system before and after is not comparable at all... I dont care about his price...All designs act the same at their worst if nobody reduce the vibration/resonance problem , and sound the worst in bad electrical environment and RFI and worst cannot reveal their truest quality in a bad acoustic environment ...

price tags dont change basic knowledge ...

What is really sad but true is that most people dont know that and dont want to know because it ask for studying, experimenting and a lot of time to do it right...It is more easier to buy and plug and called it high end 😊 ... The price tags will be the proof our system is good enough... But it is not so simplistic... Sorry... Dont take it personal please we only discuss...This is my experience not just an argument ...

How a low cost system can sound so good and how some very costlier system sound so bad even if they could be way better than the low cost system? It is relative to the basic knowledge of the users ...

This has nothing to do with a claim as preposterous as my low cost system may rival high end... It cannot ... But it can sound very good... And the high end may  not  sound so good because it is not installed to work at his peak potential ... The reason is knowledge applied or not in the triple embeddings  , not price ...

Unfortunately, sound quality usually improves as the equipment improves, and as the equipment improves it unfortunately usually costs more. Sad but true.

@immatthew “Unfortunately, sound quality usually improves as the equipment improves, and as the equipment improves it unfortunately usually costs more…”

+1

Considering the current state of the art, $3000 is spot on.  The state of the art can be found at the Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, Polk, etc.... level.  All else is hype and eye candy.

How do you define state of the art?

the cost of one’s equipment is not the main criterion. Concern for sound quality is, however one strives to achieve that goal.

Unfortunately, sound quality usually improves as the equipment improves, and as the equipment improves it unfortunately usually costs more.  Sad but true.

Wow!

A very good example of acoustics ignorance coupled to gear fetichism ...

A.I. will replace our ears and Bach soon ...

A.I. is not a tool we are the tool of A.I. 😊

Sadly, on another note. We got a new conductor whom wanted to make his mark on the symphony. He had a multimillion dollar DSP system installed in the orchestra hall. Suddenly the violins sounded steely on the top, the drums sounded as if they came from behind me ( my seats were in the 7th row center). The triangle became a very noticeable instrument... like it had a solo. The music was very severely compromised...so it goes. My system now sounds better than the live orchestra.

I know for a fact that acoustics knowledge matter more than gear price tags...

When you have a good balanced system you forgot the sound. Suddenly any musical album reveal his unique acoustic trade-off interesting choices and the music is well served so much you cannot stop listening the music not the sound.

How is it possible with a relatively low cost system as mine ? With acoustics basic applied among other factors...

I was accused to bash high end gear because of my claim😊 ... Complete misunderstanding who reveal the ignorance abyss put by marketing publicity in audio forums and magazine and in people head... I discovered it late in my life and recently and progressively all along my acoustics journey ... ( acoustics concepts are not room acoustic panels by the way )

No acoustics concepts and experiment will put a 100 bucks speaker on the same podium as 10,000 bucks one... Common sense and common place fact ... But acoustics will make possible an improvement in the limits of these different designs in an astounding way ... I am flabbergasted by acoustics not by the gear...

One key of being an audiophile is the objective. At least in my definition it is to recreate the real musical experience in all respects and in proportion. So, it is not to just create a spectacular sound system. Many people create very flashy sounding systems with great detail and bass but that completely loose the music. They over emphasize some aspects and miss others. This is really common, I have heard many. In the pursuit of one or more aspects the music gets left behind, they turn into a real sound spectacular. This is the equivalent of salt, sugar, and fat in food... like Lays barbecue potato chips... very tasty but lacking in nutrition and satisfaction as food.

Typically as these get better they loose the rhythm / pace and mid-range bloom. Which allows for incredible detail and kick drum that hits you in the chest, or imaging is holographic, but the music no longer has the emotional draw.

If you get bored listening to your system after 45 minutes or you tend to music surf if streaming ask yourself if you lost the music along the way.

I have had season tickets to the symphony for over ten years. This and other concerts helped me compare my system to the real thing. Over time mine conveyed a balanced and is a real close representation. So this experience really helped me keep things in proportion.

Sadly, on another note. We got a new conductor whom wanted to make his mark on the symphony. He had a multimillion dollar DSP system installed in the orchestra hall. Suddenly the violins sounded steely on the top, the drums sounded as if they came from behind me ( my seats were in the 7th row center). The triangle became a very noticeable instrument... like it had a solo. The music was very severely compromised...so it goes. My system now sounds better than the live orchestra.

What makes one an "audiophile" seems to have got stuck on how much one spends on audio equipment. I’ll grant, that’s certainly not irrelevant. But, as several have said (notably, mahgister, who sounds this theme regularly on this forum), the cost of one’s equipment is not the main criterion. Concern for sound quality is, however one strives to achieve that goal.

But my post was meant to raise issues with even that quest, which is why I wondered aloud, as it were, whether or not I belong on this forum. Yes, I care about and delight in sound quality! To that extent, obviously, I’m an audiophile. But my deeper concern is that such attention is really misplaced. Enjoying certain recordings, despite their being musically insipid, just because they are well recorded...well, now that strikes me as misguided (and I am guilty of it). Very few of the musicians I know care much at all about sound quality.

So I’m kind of conflicted. That’s where the Stewart Smalley comment strikes home. Get over it! Stop whining! Enjoy the music, or enjoy the sound quality of your system, or both—who cares! I get that.

The fact is that, although I have loved audio equipment most of my life, I haven’t been in a position to afford really good stuff until relatively recently. And, furthermore, the kind of conversations that dominate our audio club meetings, and this forum, I’m not really able to contribute much to. I just don’t know enough about the equipment that’s available, much less about the electrical engineering principles that goes into it. For me, it really is all about the music.

To say "it’s all about the music" is, of course, a commonplace among audiophiles. But this isn’t really a forum about music. The only threads about "the music" I’ve found interesting are those that suggest especially good-sounding recordings, not those that discuss matters of interpretation (in "classical" music) or those that share enthusiasms for this or that genre or artist.

Megabyte's comment is one of the things that worries me here...

What has changed is how people now interact after the advent of social media. It’s not limited to any one group or hobby. Our culture is now more about presenting a certain image online than actual discussion and substance. Don’t take it personally. Culture, morals, humility have all but faded away. It’s all about showing people what you have that they likely can’t afford now. 

So...am I an "audiophile," or not? Do I belong here, or not?

I know what you mean.  On this site, forget anything you read about gear.  Stick with the music.  The best thing about this forum is the age of the participants.

Considering the current state of the art, $3000 is spot on.  The state of the art can be found at the Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, Polk, etc.... level.  All else is hype and eye candy.

Do you belong here?  Yes.  But, think of it as being in the middle of the Pacific Ocean on a raft with no water.

Cheers

@snilf 

And a correction, by the way. As my overlong narrative concludes, $4,000 is a more accurate estimate of what I paid for the components in my system than $3,000. I guess I should read my own words more carefully. 

Sand bagging by over 30% were ya?!  😉😂

@snilf , I am not sure what the criteria is for being an audiophile. I’ve got some equipment that, all things being relative, I don’t consider cheap. But I don’t think that, if I am an audiophile, it is my equipment that makes me one. If I do meet the criteria, I suppose it would be because of my desire (an obsessive desire at times) for a better reproduction of music from my system.

If being an audiophile was only dependent upon how much one’s gear cost, I am not sure where the bottom of the threshold would be. As I just typed, I don’t consider my stuff to be cheap, but compared to a member who I have read posts about his speakers that cost 30k (which is more $ than the entire system I am listening to) I guess my stuff would be considered cheap and I definitely would not be an audiophile. And if those were the parameters one needed to be within, that would probably eliminate a lot of members from the audiophile club.

However, although I don’t think that it is the price or quality of gear that makes one an audiophile, I also believe that the better the gear is--the better the sonic performance usually is.

If you dont mix Fuel in your listening habits I’d like you to leave.

😆😆😆

Al Franken indeed did Stuart Smalley. The Michael Jordan episode of “Daily Affirmations with Stuart Smalley” is a gem (“repeat after me…‘I don’t have to…dribble the ball fast, or…throw the ball into the basket…’”).  
Franken was a writer (occasionally a performer) on the original ‘75-‘80, then came back when Lorne Michaels came back ‘85. Stayed on the show ‘til ‘95.

I find it dubious to presume any person other than themselves is best equipped to determine whether they “belong” somewhere.  
We go where we think we’d like to be, we determine whether that assumption was accurate, then proceed accordingly. That’s it.  
If you like Agon, cool. If not, also cool. Simple.

I’ll tack on the end here that I have very much experienced the problem of going from, “I love music (end of story)” to, “I love music but now I’m spending the vast majority of the listening time fretting over fidelity-related minutiae” (the latter being to the great detriment to the former).
Just my personal experience.  
A long break from the expensive cartridges/tonearms/turntables/speakers/cables/preamps/amps scenario (and the expensive tools needed to properly calibrate/align the stuff and the accompanying tedium of the many processes of all the above, even fretting over a very slight degree of speaker ‘toe-in’) has done me well.  
Sort of a “shaking off” of the negative effects of the whole thing, now able to really appreciate the ways the stuff…makes beautiful music sound more beautiful!

@larsman  , I vaguely remember that character . . . wasn't Al Franken the one who portrayed him?  What I was wondering was how Stuart Smalley got into the conversation?

@immatthewj - Stuart Smalley was a character on Saturday Night Live in days gone by.... 

@snilf 

I am not familiar with the actual equipment that is listed for your system, however, I am familiar with some of the brands listed (NHT, NAD, Maranzt) and you have a TT and a DAC and a line conditioner . . . I am thinking you got some pretty good bargains to get all that for 4k?

@immatthewj - Stuart Smalley was a character on Saturday Night Live in days gone by.... 

Of course you belong as much as anyone else does.  I would ignore the Stuart Smalley comments.

Stuart Smalley?

audphile1 no harm done, no offense taken. Farts happen.

And a correction, by the way. As my overlong narrative concludes, $4,000 is a more accurate estimate of what I paid for the components in my system than $3,000. I guess I should read my own words more carefully. 

I started to read your system description but I admit, it was too long for the moment. I don't think there is a lot of drama to be found here (in this post and in general), my 2 cents: you can't appreciate the peak, if you are dropped there with a helicopter. You have to climb the mountain. Some people here were dropped by a helicopter and have no prospective and don't understand the climb. But it's easy to not get hung up on it and ignore them. Most members here have expensive systems and worked very hard to buy the components and make it work, so I do  think it's easy to find like-minded people for anyone. The spoiled rich kids with the TIdals don't post here anyway.

A paper tiger.

Hey Op…I totally agree…whatever. This display of ego was like a fart - short lived. Take care. 

The above was posted before I had a chance to read the response from audphile1. Yes, you are "overthinking this" if you think my post was "designed to cause a stir" or smells of trolling. I've just explained how the "follow up pictures" DO, in fact, align with what I'd originally said. I'm fortunate to have friends that share this audiophile passion, and who have been generous both in loaning me things and selling me things. My "reference system" cost me less than $3,000. That's a fact. I'm sorry if you have not been so successful in your system building.

The take-away for me from this attempt to engage in a frank conversation about our supposedly common audio passion has more, sadly, to do with the contentious nature of dialog these days than it does with the specific topic.

Oh, and about millercarbon. He was something of a troll, I'll grant. Arrogant, in your face—but well-informed, articulate, and helpful with particular problems if one contacted him privately. His posts, infuriating as they often were (and that Einstein thumbnail was just puerile), were almost always interesting and informative. And witty. He was the main reason I joined this forum, even though we almost never agreed. For what it's worth, that's what I think genuine dialog should be: the ability to appreciate someone with radically different politics and worldview than one's own, and to engage productively with such a person in constructive exchanges of ideas anyway.

I hope you will participate because we need informed people and you appear one...

Then not only i welcome you but i hope for more exhanges...

We are not all defiant people... Trust is basic in human communication ..

By the way i beat you... My system is balanced and cost me 1000 bucks ( heavily modified though ) 😉

So, since my motives for this post have been questioned, let me clarify. I do love audio equipment for its own sake. I have for more than 50 years. But...the equipment is ultimately a tool that enables us to hear great music with as little compromise as possible. Speaking for myself, I feel I often lose sight of that; worse, that this site encourages loosing sight of that. So maybe I don’t belong here—even though I do love audio equipment in its own right.

I think you had overthought all this...😁

But i am very "naive" in public contact i concede this as a fact and my unability to catch subtleties in English speech... But i only gave my opinion for the sake of an audiogon good social health.. 😊

And i prefer to welcome people than suspecting them... It is my nature ... a defect in some case i concede it ...

the way the OP is written, the follow up system pictures that don’t align with the info provided originally, the meaningless, as far as context is concerned, mention of millercarbon, the claims of feeling alienated, the mention of million dollar system in a million a million dollar dedicated structure…the whole thing smells like trolling. It’s designed to cause a stir. And he accomplished it by the way. Deserves a credit for putting this together so masterfully, no doubt.
May be I’m overthinking this, or you just haven’t cracked the shell yet, @mahgister

Wow. I had not anticipated that posting my Virtual System would result in accusations of being a troll. If grislybutter had read the (admittedly excessively long) narrative, he'd know that the many speakers in the photos were mostly borrowed, and those I own were bought used for a song from friends. As mahgister correctly points out, the quote of "$3,000" applies to my main system, which is very clearly laid out in that same narrative. Don't we all take whatever opportunity we can to compare what we already have to what might perhaps take our systems up a notch? Am I a "troll" because I have friends who are also fond of audio equipment and are willing to loan me things to try in my own home? As the kids say: whatever.

As for looking for "sympathy," the word means something like "fellow feeling" (in German, "mitgefühl," literally "feeling-with"). I'm not looking for pity! I'm wondering if others on this forum find themselves conflicted by the tension that surely exists between a love of music, and a love of music reproduction (that is, a love of the technology that makes listening to recorded music such a close approximation of hearing it live). Several have made comparisons to their love of performance cars—another thing I get. But the same tension is evident there. Do you love your car because of its 0-60 time, or it's Nurburgring standing, or because you actually drive it to its limit yourself, and appreciate viscerally what the numbers signify? The latter is analogous to a love of music, the former to (pure) audiophilia. 

So, since my motives for this post have been questioned, let me clarify. I do love audio equipment for its own sake. I have for more than 50 years. But...the equipment is ultimately a tool that enables us to hear great music with as little compromise as possible. Speaking for myself, I feel I often lose sight of that; worse, that this site encourages loosing sight of that. So maybe I don't belong here—even though I do love audio equipment in its own right.

This has, in any case, been an interesting experiment in communication. Once again, thank you to those who have been generous and welcoming, despite my reservations and the possible ambiguity of my motives. 

 

mahgister

12,409 posts

04-13-2024 at 02:56pm 

Why suspecting the OP of trolling ?
 

the way the OP is written, the follow up system pictures that don’t align with the info provided originally, the meaningless, as far as context is concerned, mention of millercarbon, the claims of feeling alienated, the mention of million dollar system in a million a million dollar dedicated structure…the whole thing smells like trolling. It’s designed to cause a stir. And he accomplished it by the way. Deserves a credit for putting this together so masterfully, no doubt. 
May be I’m overthinking this, or you just haven’t cracked the shell yet, @mahgister 

Often, an audiophile is someone who plays music to listen to their system. You, on the other hand, appear to play your system to hear the music. Congratulations!

I have often noticed that my most musically engaged friends (those that are actually musicians), can always hear and enjoy the music regardless of the SQ. How I envy them!

Unfortunately, I  am an audiophiliac, too dependent upon SQ for my pleasure. I would switch ears with you at the drop of a stylus...

Enjoy!

Of course you belong as much as anyone else does.  I would ignore the Stuart Smalley comments.  There seem to be a few folks on here who like to type things they would likely not say to someone's face (at least I hope not). By the way @chrshanl37 it's cue.  Que is not an English word and queue does not apply.  If you're going to be impish at least get the spelling correct (and yes I would say that directly to you 😀).