ACTUAL MUSICAL SOUND VS. MEASUREMENTS

So many devices measure great.   Some affordable ones even push the limits of the very equipment used to test them.   Says a lot , but how does it sound????  

If someone wants to put a system together entirely based on specs more power to them.   It could sound great, but probably not as good as a system that was curated on how the individual pieces sound together.    

I might have some insight based on my own reactions to my own experience.

As a scientist (I am actually a scientist), I really hate the notion that I can hear the difference between interconnects and speakers cables, and it really PO's me that I can hear the difference with power cables.
There is no objective reason that I accept for power cables to make a difference, yet I can hear it. Cost does not seem to be a contributor, I have a pair of Blue Jeans Cables interconnects that I greatly prefer over a "nice" $500.00 pair, and the pair I am using now cost under $300.00.

Not all people deal well with this type of dissonance, and some of them lash out at others because of it.
I really appreciate the hard work that Alpha Audio has been doing. They are conducting the actual research that Amir at ASR only pretends to do. He is certainly not doing science, I am not sure he even knows what a scientist does.

In my mind, the issue is we just do not know how to measure a signal for its character. My field is like that, 20 years ago we did not have access to the tech to conduct the research I do on a daily basis today.

I suppose some folks really can't hear a difference, but I think most of the hostile ones do, and are angry about it.

Objective vs Subjective has been around forever.  All credibility is lost when measurements are used to claim a $200 and $2000 piece of gear will undeniably sound the same if the they measure the same.  Not stopping there, any item deemed expensive (typically more than a few hundred dollars) is frequently labeled "snake oil". The next step is to hurl insults at any individual choosing to purchase expensive items.  Finally, the promoter of cheap but well measuring equipment personally spends well into 6 figure land for a system.  Hypocrite with no credibility.

@tony1954 you are right about the way folks talk to each other. People are online thumb thuggin. Hiding behind keyboards saying things online that they wouldn’t in person 

I guess if you don't want to do the work and actually analyze what you are hearing or you're a novice that hasn't been into audio for very long, then measurements can be attractive. Armed with your measurements you can go online and act like you are wise in the ways of the audiophile.

Personally, I listen with my ears, not a spread sheet.

@calvinj 

"I guess I’m surprised about the intellectual arrogance that some of them have towards folks they don’t know and don’t know the level of experience they have "

Can you really be surprised these days? We live in a time of anonymity, vitriol and the need to force your opinion on the world, regardless of its authenticity. 

Wow, how the hate flows… If ya don’t like or believe mechanical measurements cool, if your happy with what ya hear cool. It should be simple and that is..Shut up and go with what pleasures a person. My system was put together using all forms of information, it’s big IMO looks and sounds great and that’s all that matters.

“Don’t worry be happy”  lol

Physics and the room will win if the system isn't dialed in. So...both listening and measuring are essential. To many in audio, what I said is kindergarten-level knowledge.

It is time-consuming and meticulous, but the back and forth btw measuring with REW, then adjusting, then listening and repeating really dials things in, including the subs.

The only specs I care about are output at 8 4 and 2 ohms and current. 

@dayglow agreed 

@kennymacc exactly. We all have a sound we like and we seek it out. No measurements needed. 

It's always been par for the coarse in high end audio, where there are those perfectionist who like to measure everything up and down and from side to side.  As they say, "it takes every kind of people."  And high end audio is no exception.  Me personally, in over 40 years in high end audio, I never once purchased a single audio component based on how it measured.  I never cared.  I always followed my ears and my heart.  Happy listening.

Measurements for many implies logic. Unfortunately that is a simplistic/flawed approach when building a HEA system.

@cleeds yup I get what you are saying. They are lonely folks looking for arguments. 

@sns great points. All great points.

@coralkong you summed it up in a nutshell.  I’m tired of it too. Why do they do that. Look we invest at different levels in this hobby. I get so sick of people trying to show how much much smarter than we are because they spent less money and we are foolish because we spent more money. Jeez! 

I've built my system for my own pleasure, whether it meets some other person's objective or subjective criteria for quality doesn't phase me in the least. Have to admit in my younger days there were times when I let other's dictate my choices. As one progresses along their own path the need for other's approval lessens. I suppose if one is failing along these lines other's judgements will have far more impact.

Upscale Audio is there to sell product not let cynics or tire kickers waste time and money.

calvinj

... am I the only one that has had it with overly pushy audiophiles that push measurements as the end all be all ... obnoxious ones that talk down to you because of the measurements of your system or equipment is not perfect for them?

I don't take them seriously. It's apparent to me that there are some who come here solely for their joy of creating conflict and starting arguments. They're not audiophiles. They're lonely people seeking engagement.

I think the point is the more aggressive criticism of those who use different methods to choose their gear. I don't care for measurements very much, believing they are very limited though potentially useful. It's perfectly fine with me that some prefer to decide mostly based on measurements. I have my own "testing" protocols that work just fine for me. Others have very different methods. 

There is also the other side of the coin, people who ignore psychology/psychoacoustics and the limits of physics and human hearing.

"I put this cable in and it sounded better", but no indication whether old and new one was swapped in several times: second = better, and confirmation bias.

Or the "break in" aka habituation. I have yet to see a blind A/B test where anybody can tell brand new from broken in piece of equipment >8/10. I don't believe in break in, not for one second unless there is some sort of demonstration. The more outlandish the claim, the more rigorous the demonstration needs to be.

Re ignorance of physics, e.g. Fremer/TAS in the context of TT speed consistency re-parroting marketing material that 1 arc second may be audible. Just the slightest amount of reflection will make it clear that this is physics nonsense.

That coupled with dealers being unwilling/incapable of setting up demos. I asked Upscale Audio to set up a demo to show that TT pinths (as opposed to carts) can sound different, and despite plenty of notice they were unwilling/unable to do that. What's someone who has healthy skepticism and a scientific mind to do? Measurements is a good first approach to cut through the marketing hyperbole. It's not everything, but it is a start. 

Arrogance bad.  Measurements good.  Two different things. 

I’m over the whole "Prove it, Bro!" thing. It’s usually based on ignorance and a lack of experience, coupled with an inherent need to try to prove their cheap equipment is just as good as an expensive piece of equipment. Why argue with someone like that?

The second someone uses the term "snake oil", I completely tune out of the conversation and pretty much write off whatever they have to say.

@hilde45 i get what you are saying.  I guess I’m surprised about the intellectual arrogance that some of them have towards folks they don’t know and don’t know the level of experience they have 

@dlevi67 all great points. But what I see is increased nastiness with the arrogance.  I expect today’s young people to not have the level of respect that is expected nowadays.  But some of the older audiophiles are the ones that surprise me. They make personal attacks. I have had them find out what I do as a lawyer and use that. You work for a company and use that. You sell cables and use that.  You paid all that money for an amp or dac or cables when a lot cheaper stuff would have been fine and use that. You allowed a company to sell you snake oil because you are a sucker argument is the one that is used on steroids! 

Beating up on "measurementalists" is one of this site's favorite hobbies.

I agree that when that approach becomes dogmatic and myopic it is not worth reading. But they're also not worth responding to. So, I'm not aggravated by them.

@mahler123 I agree it’s very frustrating. Because you have guys on the internet who have not heard your system in your system in your environment and then spout a bunch psychotic allegedly scientific babble about what you are hearing and not hearing in your system a system that they will never hear and combinations of equipment, components , cables and rooms that they have never heard. 

I’m with Calvin in that I don’t think that measurements tell the whole story, and very annoyed by audiophiles who use them as their defying criteria 

I'm returning to "audio" conversations after a long pause (25 years). If anything, my impression is that the emphasis on measurements in 'professional', published reviews (as opposed to comments/conversations in forums) and in marketing materials is relatively lower now than it was in the late 1990s - with some exceptions (e.g. ASR).

I think this may be due to two factors: 1) the fragmentation of the 'review' market with more and more 'low resource' individuals/influencers/youtubers and whatnot rather than magazines with labs etc; and 2) the fact that component quality and consistency of electronics (particularly digital, but also amps) has improved enormously.

The conversation (or squabble, occasionally) among consumers/aficionados doesn't seem to me to be very different from back then. There are a few 'objectivists' and a few 'feeling-driven' folks, with a large majority that looks at both sides. As usual, the extremes drive most of the noise.

I must be out of the loop but I could not care less.