A bit off topic, but I know Matt has been a client of Dave's at the Audio Doctor in Jersey City (audiotroy) and I wanted to publicly thank Dave for a most pleasant and informative phone conversation today. We discussed loudspeakers I was interested in, and Dave provided very honest evaluations of those he carries. I've read a lot of comments bashing the guy, but he really impressed me.
And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming... |
You mentioned the ODSX review. Can you point us to it? I couldn't find it doing a quick Google search and didn't see a link on your website either.
It's here: https://www.audiostream.com/content/empirical-audio-overdrive-sx-ethernet-dacpre BTW, I figured out what was making the vocalist sound recessed for the reviewer. It was Jriver. I am using Minimserver and Linn Kinsky instead now and getting much better results. Much more live, much better bass. Minor negatives mentioned in the review are fixed. I guess the DSP in Jriver is not that good. It thought I had overcome the software issues with Ethernet, but evidently not. Steve N. Empirical Audio
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Steve, try Fubar as well....
Minimserver and Fubar are a bit basic for my tastes but they are as bare boned regarding processing as they come. I have not used the Linn software so have no experience.
I’m SO deep into my footer/shelf comparison I can’t think about trying different software now. I am still waiting for Sam and Mark to play with HQPlayer and a few others to fine tune them for my Memory Player before I go that direction.
Thanks for reporting! It’s always good to hear what software is working for people. |
I tried Foobar on my Mac and could not get it to work. Kinsky is a bit bare-bones, but if it gives the best SQ, that is what I’m after. Ease of use is secondary to me. That’s why all of my files are in .wav format. Minimserver does allow one to change the displayed items and tags quite a bit. Steve N. |
Matt, please update us on the foot/shelf comparison when you can. This is another important subject that worth to cover. Thanks. |
Steve - you and I are after the same thing. Best sound, period. I’ll try the other apps when I get a change. Curious to hear the differences. But I do want a nice user interface if I can have that as well, it makes searching my library much easier and more pleasant. I think many feel the same way.
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So far I have not found any sound quality problems with Roon - you may want to try it. I have known for a long time that most softwares (especially Amara Jriver and others) tend to colour the sound. I don’t know if Steve is aware but the SRC converters in Apple core audio are terrible - it is very important to make sure no conversion takes place in core audio (iTunes has its own much better SRC converter built in to the software). I used a software called Bitperfect to ensure Core Audio automatically matched the file sample rate back when I used iTunes. Even Tidal has implemented the ability to control Apple core audio to ensure good sound quality.
My overall approach is to totally avoid all SRC in software and to disable all software processing (even volume control) and filtering - perhaps that is why I don’t have all the typical problems everyone reports. Software engineers or programmers are like DAC designers - most haven’t a clue when it comes to digital signal time series processing (these are full semester courses in 3rd or 4th year engineering). Software can work one day and then an update comes along and trouble happens and one might not notice....best to turn everything off. |
Matt - I found another good playback software, Twonky. Initially it did not work with my Ethernet renderer, but they issued a new beta version that does work for me. SQ as good as Kinsky, but I think it is a bit more stable and maybe user friendly. It is not released yet, so I’m using the beta version. I don’t know if Steve is aware but the SRC converters in Apple core audio are terrible - it is very important to make sure no conversion takes place in core audio I know this. I avoid iTunes like the plague. I have used it in the past with Amarra as a playlist navigator. I don’t do any SRC anymore. I used Wave Editor in the past because it was the best, but I don’t find the need anymore. 16/44.1 sounds fantastic on the ODSX. BTW, today I plan to compare on the same hardware Roon versus DLNA using either Twonky or Kinsky. The only difference will be software. I want to determine how good Roon software is. If I’m going to design a Roon interface, it had better be as good as my DLNA. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I find Roon very enjoyable and use the DSP feature to good effect with no noticeable degradation in sound quality that I could detect. I use the EQ tool as well as volume leveling and up sampling at times. Wonderful!
I did not like engaging the headroom feature that some reviewers seem to love. Just robbed the music of a little life IMHO. |
Steve, what do you now recommend I do with my Mac mini server that you sold me? I still have the old Amarra etc... Should I keep it off the internet totally? I've been using the USB port that you marked as best SQ. As you know, I'm not technically great. Tidal is currently streamed in the Ayre QX5 and not the Mac mini. Thanks. I can call you if needed to get your answer or be talked through set up, lol.... |
I had a dilemma with playing iTunes or JRiver, rips and other music files downloads with an equality of sound on my Antelope Zodiac Platinum Dac. The timing crystal is completely environmentally isolated so the timing is stable all the time (I leave mine on all the time). I wanted to convert these to the same bit depth and sample rate and in .wav format (storage is so cheap now). I use Aul ConvertR 48x44 PROduce-RD software to do all my conversions to my NAS which is my ROON server. I can play from NAS, stream from Node or Naim, play via Ethernet (for reliability) and Airplay through my Yamaha amp, (soon to by upgraded bigtime). I can listen to internet radio (preselected or me typing my favourite radio's ulr). My sound is uniform, until I play MQA and then the clarity is much improved. The thing is uniformity. You cant get a 16/44 CD quality file to be HD. What the Aul ConvertR software does is give you a means to input any format to (any) format you choose and change the bit depth and sample rate along the wany. It makes a big difference. The developer has also worked with JCat audio components for PCs. I used their gear to output quality sound via usb to the DAC and out via HD800 h/phones. I now convert all files from PC to NAS and play via Roon. Best sound ever, even if my system is not worth $10k all up. (This will all change when my new house, with a dedicated media room is built. I have project system worth well over $100k going in and the sound will be sublime... sorry for long blog, but its a big subject. Adrian |
I wanted to convert these to the same bit depth and sample rate and in .wav format (storage is so cheap now). While I certainly do agree that "cheap" or "expensive" is subjective, I humbly submit you are probably making a mistake to store as wav (instead of a lossless compressed alternative). Assuming your collection grows, at some point you will be compelled to rethink storing files in wav format. In my particular case, I have 20+ terabytes of music stored as flac. If I stored in wav, I suppose I could say I have 40 terabytes. Besides the fact the cost of three additional western digital drives would be $600, I’d also need another cubic feet or more of physical space. Not clear to me where the benefit lies. |
Steve, what do you now recommend I do with my Mac mini server that you sold me? I still have the old Amarra etc... Should I keep it off the internet totally? I've been using the USB port that you marked as best SQ. As you know, I'm not technically great. Tidal is currently streamed in the Ayre QX5 and not the Mac mini. Thanks. I can call you if needed to get your answer or be talked through set up, lol....
I have upgraded my Mini with El Capitan and I'm using it with Linn Kinsky to drive network audio now. Superb SQ, best I ever had. Not sure if it supports Tidal or not. I will give Tidal a try soon. Once you upgrade the OS, the OR5 will not work anymore with the Mac. Other customers are starting to move from USB to Ethernet. My Interchange Ethernet renderer is killer good with any DAC. Look for customer feedbacks on my forum. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
@gdhal if I had the huge library of music that you have I would certainly look to FLAC for storage. I am pushing 5 Tb in WAV my NAS library is manageable at the moment. The audio quality between the 2 is really dependant an the system you are playing it on. Mine sounds better with WAV but its not an expensive system either. 20Tb of FLAC music! How do you get time to listen to it all? |
@gdhal
Ethernet renderers, as audioengr refers to, are the way to go. |
How do you get time to listen to it all?
I listen at a rate of 12 hours of live concert recordings weekly, for many years now. Each day I listen to a completely different show. In my case, I primarily, but not exclusively, listen to Grateful Dead. To date, I’ve listened to 4772 *unique* show hours and 2026 *unique* dates . My 20 terabytes is not all unique shows. Much of the material is the same show, but a different source. For instance, a show can be a soundboard, audience or matrix. I have about 1 year of music in queue. This is music I’ve already obtained but haven’t listened to it yet. I also have videos of many shows. Videos are typically 12Gb whereas a show in 24bit is 3.5Gb. Details are on my website http://halr.x10.mx/shows.htmlEthernet renderers, as audioengr refers to, are the way to go. This isn’t practical in my case because I obtain and trade via client peer-to-peer bit torrent. I "collect" the music so as to retain in my personal possession. Grateful Dead can be streamed via ethernet rendering from archive.org, but my collection far surpasses what’s available on the site and is usually better quality sources. Note that at one time archive.org permitted downloading the files and not simply streaming as they do now. Moreover, IMO streaming is not as good as having the source files and playing locally. Streaming invariably involves occasional drop outs, especially if wireless is involved. My opinion on streaming music is that quality suffers in comparison to having the same music available locally. Streaming might be viable if I were just casually listening and not collecting on top of it. Additionally, not all types of music - especially live recordings - are available to stream. |
Streaming might be viable if I were just casually listening and not collecting on top of it. Additionally, not all types of music - especially live recordings - are available to stream. Why do you believe that Ethernet renderers = streaming? I don't do any streaming at all and I use an Ethernet renderer: my Ethernet DAC the ODSX or my Interchange Ethernet renderer. I play only my .wav files that are from CD rips and downloads from HDTracks. Everything is stored on a Raid1 and played from there. I can use Jriver, Twonky or Linn Kinsky for playback. It's the best sound quality I have ever had, and I've designed 6 generations of USB interfaces as well, Off-Ramp -> Off-Ramp 6. Here is an apples to apples comparison, measurements and listening tests: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155232.0 Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Why do you believe that Ethernet renderers = streaming? Hi Steve. If I'm mistaken here (and you're saying that I am) then I appreciate your pointing it out. My DAC (Yggdrasil) does not support Ethernet in, and I'm in no hurry to get another one. But would I be correct in saying that your wav files that are from CD rips
and downloads from HDTracks, that you are storing on Raid1 still has a cost of the storage device itself? And, is the cost of the storage more or less than $200 for 8 (eight) TB (terabytes), which is my cost for a western digital drive. And, aren't you using at least twice the storage space you would otherwise use if you stored as flac? Perhaps your configuration is capable of the best quality, and it that case I'll have to be content with less than best. That said, I'm curious if you are able to listen via "blind testing" and conclude the same results as your measurement data? |
My DAC (Yggdrasil) does not support Ethernet in, and I’m in no hurry to get another one. you don’t have to get another one. An external renderer like the Interchange goes Ethernet to S/PDIF, AES/UBU, SE I2S and HDMI I2S. But would I be correct in saying that your wav files that are from CD rips and downloads from HDTracks, that you are storing on Raid1 still has a cost of the storage device itself? Sure. I have a Terabyte and it’s enough for me. The RAID insures that I will never lose any music. It delivers low-latency because it's attached. And, is the cost of the storage more or less than $200 for 8 (eight) TB (terabytes), which is my cost for a western digital drive. Yes, but RAID has 3 drives, so you have 3 copies at all times. And, aren’t you using at least twice the storage space you would otherwise use if you stored as flac? Yes. Not a problem for me. It’s worth it for the sound quality. That is what I sell, that is what I want for myself. Steve N. Empirical Audio
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I’m curious if you are able to listen via "blind testing" and conclude the same results as your measurement data? I didn’t bother with that in this case. I am a trained listener and do this every single day, listening for changes, problems, nuances. Been doing that for 42 years. I don’t doubt my conclusions. I made business decisions based on them. You are welcome to doubt them if you want. It’s still a free country, at least last time I checked CNN. Steve N Empirical Audio |
I didn’t bother with that in this case. I am a trained listener and do this every single day, listening for changes, problems, nuances. Been doing that for 42 years. I don’t doubt my conclusions. I made business decisions based on them.
You are welcome to doubt them if you want. It’s still a free country, at least last time I checked CNN.
Hi Steve. I’m not doubting you at all. As I stated, I was just curious if you could blind test. I'll take your response as a "no". Given everything I’ve read from you over the years on the forum, invariably you have all the answers and the "best-of-the-best" gear and technology at play. Happy listening. |
I don't believe I would win shootouts, get best of shows, Golden Ear Awards and rave reviews if my stuff wasn't decent. If I was located near other audiophiles, I may do blind-testing. It's difficult to do with deer, coyotes and wild turkeys... Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Come to CT. You know you are always invited Steve |
Crikey, In the small time I have been on this forum, each thread seems to degenerate into mine is bigger than yours arguments. I thought this was a means to exchange ideas and to help fellow audio lovers. I appreciate that there are contributors with real expertise out there, but lets not allow egos to degenerate friendly and spirited help and ideas. I have contributed to about 3 threads in well meaning contributions and each have been shot down, in my opinion, rather rudely. May be that's the US way, but we don't do that in Australia. Please lets be civil and well meaning in our conduct, or I'm out of here. |
Please lets be civil and well meaning in our conduct, or I’m out of here. +1 I absolutely agree with you amg56. But, being civil and well meaning in our conduct includes you too. You mayn’t go around questioning ones intelligence, simply on the basis of a forum post. |
What’s not civil on this thread? All good here and hopefully in the US. |
Hello Steve,
Where can I learn more about your
Interchange Ethernet renderer you keep mentioning here? After they finish the Gen3 upgrade to my Antipodes DX I plan to try using it as a server on my network with Roon. I will need a renderer to accept the Ethernet signal from my network (or directly from the DX which has two Ethernet connections) and then feed USB to my Pavane Level 3 DAC. It will need to work with Roon. I am looking at options but while some of the top offerings from SOtM and Sonore have their fans, nothing seems to jump out in the current reviews as a clear winner, based on musicality and overall performance. Of course, one option will be Antipodes' own EX (once it is released) but I know your stuff is very well-regarded and so I would like to learn more about your Interchange. I tried your website but the Interchange is not shown. BTW congrats on the excellent review Plaskin just gave your new SX. |
To augment my comment below about nothing jumping out as a "clear winner" with regards to renderers/endpoints, it seems the dCS Network Bridge would certainly be one to try. |
Where can I learn more about your Interchange Ethernet renderer you keep mentioning here? After they finish the Gen3 upgrade to my Antipodes DX I plan to try using it as a server on my network with Roon. I will need a renderer to accept the Ethernet signal from my network (or directly from the DX which has two Ethernet connections) and then feed USB to my Pavane Level 3 DAC. It will need to work with Roon.
That is the rub. It’s UPnP, not Roon. There are reasons why I don’t do Roon. Email me. If you must have Roon,here are some options: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153889.0 If you must go Ethernet to USB, then see the Sonore solutions. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Hey guys. Let’s keep it on track and respectful. Thanks. Been distracted by the storms and not having power for a week.
Steves DAC is a serious contender and has always been. I still have mine and it makes serious music! It also beat everything that came it’s way until the Davinci 2. it is a force to be reckoned with.
I will be comparing footers and shelves to
tomorrow morning. Stay tuned. |
mattnshilp OP825 posts03-10-2018 5:43pmHey guys. Let’s keep it on track and respectful. Thanks. Been distracted by the storms and not having power for a week.
Stop with the excuses Matt!!! ;). HA... I must have missed something. If I am the offender, I'm sorry. As for Steve's DAC's I only owned the ODSE tricked out and it was CRAZY good. Wasn't embarrassed in any system regardless of price. Yes, that good. |
Wow. What a day!
Here’s the list of things I compared (thanks for your help Larry!!!):
IsoAcoustics Bordeaux
IsoAcoustics Gaia 3
StillPoints Ultra5
Ansuz Darkz ceramic
HRS Nimbus
HRS Vortex
HRS M3
Symposium RollerBlocks double stack
Symposium Ultra Shelf
Compared under my DAC and music server. Footers under my amp were Gaia2’s (screwed in). I had tried multiple footers under my Preamp and found it to be practically immune to changes in footers when placed under the massive steel sub plinth the pre-amp sits on. Rack is my Adona rack and shelves.
Brief summary.
Under the Memory Player Server the HRS Nimbus (which is correctly matched to the sheet metal case) did a better job of extracting details and harmonic layering then the Gaia3. But the Gaia3 are crazy good for the money! The Nimbus are more expensive but justify their price. The bass was slightly deeper and more taught and trailing edge was subtly better defined. I didn’t, but I will, compare the Nimbus to the Bordeaux; just because that needs to be done.
Under the DAC I compared (again) the StillPoints Ultra5’s to the Bordeaux and both my friend who joined me and I preferred the more top to bottom coherence of the Bordeaux over the analytical leaning Stillpoint Ultra5’s. Both are easy to live with, but the Bordeaux, at a fraction of the cost, bested the mighty Ultra5’s in creating a more natural, even, musical environment, that was more believable.
Also tried the Darkz. Very good although similar in overall result as the Ultra5’s. I liked the Ultra5’s more. If I didn’t have the Ultra5’s i would consider them. You get more for your money with the mass of the Ultra5 considering they are similarly priced. But the IsoAcoustics make you wonder if it’s worth buying any of them.
Now it got interesting. Time to bring out the “systems”. The Symposium Ultra shelf with the RollerBlock double stacks and The HRS M3 shelf with the Vortex footers. This was to see what something closer to the full HRS and Symposium rack would attain. What resulted was an obvious improvement that shows that the more you do to isolate the better the result.
The HRS and Symposium shelf/footer combos bested anything else I tried previously and with a large margin. Just better in every way. But which one was better then the other??? Much harder to say.
The Symposium system improved clarity, resolution, provided layering that I had not heard before, and deepened the soundstage a touch. The trailing edge became extended and very well defined. Very very nice.
The HRS system gave MORE. More dynamics, more bass, more extension, more wow, more sizzle, more live.
Both are awesome and both provide dramatic improvements in system performance overall. But which one do I want?!? Oh man that’s a hard question!!! Can I get the best of both worlds? Maybe by using one rack and the other footers....
My friend was concerned that a whole rack of HRS “MORE” might be too much MORE. And an HRS rack would literally be twice as expensive as the Symposium rack.
So there you have it. I can’t go wrong with either but they DO have different voicing. Clearly a full shelf/footer or rack/shelf/footer system surpasses what footers alone can do.
I shall perseverate and let you all know my decisions. |
@mattnshilp, Interesting review,thanks. I came across this brand on WBF where it has good user reviews: http://stacore.pl/en/I’m not a dealer for Stacore or have anything to do with Stacore. Anyhow it seems that they only sell direct. They work on a damped pneumatic basis. For our studio I have been experimenting with silk thread isolation furniture of our own design, which has turned out to be extremely effective. Some customers have said they want one, so I’m going to make on a custom bespoke basis. I can send you a photo by PM if you like? I haven’t yet tried any footers under yet to see if it further improves isolation, so your review was timely. |
Matt, thanks for doing this. I have heard the HRS systems in so many places and they are amazing. I don't think it would be MORE of everything or overkill staying within the system. If it was, then that would lose the point of what their engineers are trying to achieve. Same with Symposium. If it was all of their gear, then would there be TOO much detail etc....? No, I doubt that would be teh case. I think there becomes the point of diminishing returns, just like everything else.
What I'd LOVE to see happen next (and I forgot to text you this), if for you to get Sam to bring two of his active isolation platforms his imports from Germany I believe, that are used for special microscopes. As you know they are out of this world expensive, but I don't think you need a special rack for them. To me, that is the next logical step in your journey to isolation 101. |
@mattnshilp Thanks for sharing your findings. Very informative and good to know your specific results/outcomes. |
I just spoke with the guys at Symposium after reporting to them my findings. He said he was not surprised. He designed his equipment to be ultimately neutral top to bottom, and I can absolutely attest to this. It is REALLY good stuff!!! I’m going to listen again Wednesday. I need another session to confirm and reinforce my findings. Then I need to decide which one gets me more lost in the music and gets my toes tapping.
Hey I may have arranged for the top level Tidal DAC to grace my room. That should be fun!!! |
Matt
I hate to go off topic so to speak, but did you ever have a chance to listen to the Mojo DAC? Or did I miss your impressions? Thanks! |
I haven't seen any further mention of the Mojo DAC after it was received and reportedly powered up several weeks ago, also curious about it's performance relative to Matt's other contenders. Any update? TIA
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Matt very cool. Can't wait to hear what you come up with. |
amg56
May be that's the US way, but we don't do that in Australia. Please lets be civil and well meaning in our conduct, or I'm out of here.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Mate! grannyring
What’s not civil on this thread? All good here and hopefully in the US.
+1
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Sorry guys. The Mojo is playing in the background. Benjamin had said it was well
broken in but had some parts upgraded before he sent it to me. I’m a pathologic believer in extended burn in to give everything its best performance. So it’s cooking. And I lost over a week of no power from the storms. I also, admittedly, needed to do this footer/shelf shootout as some of the gear is on short term loan from some local dealers who need it back. I’m listening one more time to the Symposium and HRS this Wednesday and then giving the Mojo a nice long listen. First impressions were very good. I’ll Report more shortly. Sorry.
Benjamin also said he’s trying to get me his server. I’ll keep you updated on that as well. |
Thanks for the update Matt, keep that system burning!
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WARNING, this post is GOING to piss people off!!! I am sorry. The opinions I am about to state are mine and mine alone. Please don’t tear me a new you’know’what or start flaming. I am just stating my opinion heard in my room, with my related accessories, on my system....
You have been warned!
- - - -
My friend came over today. We listened again; just compared Symposium shelf/footers and HRS shelf/footers . Used many different styles of music, spent quite a bit of time. Switched between the two several times (what a PITA, but worth it!). The combo shelf/footer has clearly proven to surpass the performance gains of any footer only system.
I definitely prefer the Symposium system (Ultra Platform and double stack roller blocks). It’s clean, neutral, fast, gives amazing attack and decay and the soundstage and imaging are holographic. And I’m not sure how, but it significantly lowers the noise floor. The HRS does not lower the noise floor, in fact I think it’s adding to it. It didn’t strike me until we switched back from HRS to Symposium for like the 4th time.
I think that’s what makes the HRS sound like it’s giving “more” in comparison, I think it’s coloring the sound. It’s “more” because it’s adding “more” to the reproduction. I think that the HRS footers, on their own, are a better solution then with the shelf. I think there is too much rubber if you add footers and shelves, to be quite honest. The sound HRS gives is big, bold, dynamic, MORE!!! Sounds awesome with anything punchy and dynamic. HRS sounds great on everything to be honest (the rack/shelf/footer equivalent of really good horns), but the purity and neutrality in combination with the blackest background I have ever heard, from the Symposium, was what finally uncovered what I hear the HRS was doing. I think Peter from Symposium may be right (he hates any rubber in a rack/footer/shelf system). A touch of rubber may be ok, but HRS REALLY relies on it heavily. The Symposium makes my system sound the best it ever has, and my friend today was the one who said it.
I juts ordered a set of elusive ShunMook Giant footers, touted by many to be the best of the best. I am also trying to arrange to audition a set of Magico Qpods. Of course, both would be implemented on the Symposium Ultra shelf or on the Osiris rack, as I’m leaning heavily in that direction. I will play with a few footers on that shelf to see what’s best, but the combo of Symposium Ultra shelf and double sandwich rollerblocks has impressed me most thus far.
On the inexpensive, holy cow are they good and they are only HOW MUCH, category is the IsoAcoustics Gaia and Orea. If you are looking for 95# of the performance for practically nickels on the dollar compared to the expensive stuff, you can NOT do better then IsoAcoustics!!! |
Hello Matt,
I have to say I am not surprised by the HRS vs the Symposisum.
We did a shoot out of the HRS Damping plate $1,800.00 which is the actual shelf of the HRS stands vs a Stillpoints spider platfom which cost $800 and we had the exact same experience. The Stillpoints seemed to make everything more in focus and improved the micro dynamics over the HRS.
So for years we were working with the Stillpoints products, now it seems that there racks have gone up in price so much we are looking at alternatives
We are looking to add an Osris rack to our reference room as it seems to be one of the best designed racks out there and the price seems reasonable compared with some of the other reference racks so we should talk.
Just got our Davinci 2 and are burning it in, wow, is it incredible.
Love to catch up.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Also totally agree with you on the Isoacoutics stuff, just amazing for the money.
Did an initial test of three pucks at $60 for the entire set vs a set of the older Stillpoints which were over $300 and we thought the Isoacoustics were just as good if not better.
We were telling people about these findings months ago.
The pucks under a set of bookshelf speakers too a set of ATC and Elac to another level.
It amazes us how some people on these forums think vibration isolation doesn't or can't make a difference on anything other than a turntable.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Ok. Here’s my vibration treatment theory. It’s deducted from observation, logic, quit a bit of research (I have an undergraduate degree in physics) and what I have heard:
Symposium posts on its web site that it is imperative for their shelf system to properly function to have a high transmission efficiency connection between the components chassis and the shelf. This is to allow the system to simultaneously isolate from outside while draining vibratory energy from the component. Symposium relies on foam in the shelf, not rubber. And then wants no rubber elsewhere because it NEEDS to get the energy to the foam to dissipate it. Makes sense. It's a total system design. Use metal footers of some kind, bearing footer devices, or thick solid metal discs to couple the chassis to the shelf so it can do its job. It makes sense. I now realize that THIS is how Critical Mass works as well; and this is why Critical mass recommends you just put the equipment directly on the shelf or use their simple cone footer to couple the chassis to the shelf. Same exact concept. The magic is in the shelf so get ALL the vibrations to the shelf to do its job.
HRS and IsoAcoustics rely on rubber to dissipate the energy. But IsoAcoustics counts of the footers doing it alone. HRS has developed their own system integrated rubber in their footers and their shelves to dissipate the vibrational energy. I think that with rubber there is less thermal distribution. And that with too much rubber it actually seals the vibrational energy in the component as opposed to allowing it to come out and dissipate.
I think that you either should use the HRS footers alone or IsoAcoustics footers alone, unless external vibration is a bigger problem then internal vibration. I think the HRS shelf is a brick wall and doesn't allow vibrational energy IN or OUT. So in a big city, it probably makes a HUGE improvement since the vibration coming from outside is smearing everything and it gets blocked. But it also blocks any internal energy from getting OUT. The HRS footers help to attenuate the energy and relies on the (not HRS) shelf to absorb or diffuse the remaining energy. With the HRS shelf in place it just bounces that energy right back through the footer and into the component, doing more harm then good.
I any rubber based product like Sorbothane and all the other rubber products out there do the same thing. They attenuate and allow the remaining energy to PSS through and dissipate into the shelf below. So the footer alone, depending on the design, can do a really good job of improving isolation and designing vibrational energy from the component. I like using the IsoAcoustics and HRS footers, they work.
Footers like the Magico Qpods (I have a set inbound to audition) and Shunmook footers (also have a set inbound) work similarly. But the Qpod takes an extra step and have a thin layer of (probably) Sorbothane and a Cooper disc which overcomes the poor thermal dissipation of the rubber. The copper theoretically dissipates the heat and makes the aluminum, steel, copper, Sorbothane design more effective at attenuating the vibrational energy then rubber alone. It’s suppsoed to offer a bit of what the Symposium/Critical Mass style shelves do but built right into the footer. I’ll let you know how big a difference that little disc of copper makes. I’m not convinced but ill
let my ears do the judging. Regarding the Shunmook footers, they are a super dense wood and a commercial grade diamond spike. Scientifically, it’s a conundrum. But maybe the density of the ebony they use is perfect to attenuate vibration and dissipate that energy more efficiently then what the other guys use. We shall see....
Footers like standard points and cones, fancy points and cones, StillPoints, Ansuz Darkz, Symposium Rollerblocks, etc all do a great job of coupling the vibrational energy from the rack to the shelf underneath. But by focusing that energy into smaller area it permits some thermal release as the vibrational energy is forced into a volume that can’t contain the vibrational energy without forcing some out as heat. Different companies have come up with different geometric solutions to this and some work VERY well! I have gotten the best results with StillPoints, the Darkz (although I liked the StillPoints more) and Symposium Rollerblocks (but only tried also using their matching shelf). I do honestly think that you probably get more isolation and vibrational attenuation by using this last type of footer and then a shelf from Symposium, Critica Mass, Silent Running, etc.
Then there are designs like Star Sound and Artesani (and the StillPoints rack) where the entire system is built as a single whole with no real shelf. The component is coupled directly to the rack to dissapate heat and vibration, and to isolate. I have heard all three and they work, and work well. Probably amongst the best overall bang for the buck if your looking to replace your whole rack.
Im not sure if that confused you or helped. But it helped me to formulate my thoughts and opinions. As always, thanks for coming along for the ride. Lol.
Dont ask ask me what I decided on yet please. I still need to hear the Qpods and Shunmook footers. And more importantly, I need to decide if I can move my rack to the front of my room without deleterious effects. But I feel like I’m getting closer!!!!
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Viscoelastic materials - Sorbothane is one of the least effective of that type material I’ve worked with -when used in conjunction with a constraining layer form a constrained layer damper, which is not a bad idea for damping the top plate of any isolation stand of the mass on spring variety - the gold standard. There is obviously “residual vibration” on the top plate and the component being isolated due to acoustic wave mechanical interaction, vibration from motor, transformer, etc. in the component and very low frequency seismic vibration transmitted via the isolation system, only partially effective for very low frequencies. Mass on spring. So, to be thorough, two things are needed - effective mass on spring isolation and effective damping of the top plate. Also it’s best to have extremely hard footers like NASA grade ceramics to couple the component to the top plate and to couple the iso stand to the floor or shelf, for extremely fast EXIT of vibration, eschewing rubbery materials altogether.
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Geoffkait- great post. I needed to read it a few times. Lol.
Some definitions :
constrained layer damping - flexing of viscoelastic (VE) material between two layers of a stiff material will generate a shear force on the VE material. The force will stretch the VE material, and the stretching converts the kinetic (acoustic) energy to thermal (heat) energy.
mass on spring damping - loosely, a mass on sprig system implies any system where a mass loads a compressible material, converting kinetic energy into potential energy. |
@mattnshilp and @geoffkait , I appreciate your comments on a very interesting subject, keep it rolling. I’m going to be trying out some of the footers you mentioned and others. I will come back with my findings.
As regards speaker isolation, have a look at Sven Boenicke interesting swing base design. The rear of the speaker hangs from steel threads and the front is supported on a ceramic sphere sitting in non ferrous metal cups, might be brass or gunmetal.
With regard to Shun Mook, the design looks very interesting. I have read some comments that Dalby here in the U.K., have used ebony in an even more effective way. I don’t know anything about this brand, they seem rather elusive, if indeed they still exist.
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I will cut up a few pieces of ebony and try then by themselves under my DAC/Server and integrated to see what they do. I know Cardas uses Myrtle for theirs, which is tough to find. |
