Putting together a reference level system. My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's. For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling? USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Here’s the thing. The Shun Mook Mpingo disc is probably not what you think it is. It’s actually two different woods, Gabon ebony and Mpingo wood, a variety of rosewood as I recall. Also, inside the cutout, if you remove the small disc of wood embedded in the disc, lo and behold - a crystal! WTH!
The Mpingo disc is very resonant and is very sensitive to direction, top to bottom but also azimuth. Thus the real Mpingo disc is rather tricky to fabricate, tricky to knock off and tricky to use. Used incorrectly it can easily hurt the sound.
@mattnshilp i agree with your HRS vs Symposium comparison.I've also heard them many times & but on diff setups, unless you don't try & hear it side by side one never gets an idea, also sort the preference. Hats off to all the efforts you are putting in & also sharing your observations quite frankly. Hope you could have also tried the leading edge rack. @geoffkait i agree with what you say about the shun mook. Needs some tweaking. But i guess will add a bit of flavour which may or may not work , as usually flavours are.
CTSooner/Geoffkait - I’m not trying the Shun Mook Mpingo discs. I’m trying the footers, the Giant Diamond Resonators (GDR) mechanical grounding product. The Mpingo are for room tuning, the GDR are for mechanical grouanding (ie. Footers).
I just know they are a special type of ebony and then fabricated to a standard. Comparing these to a normal piece of ebony is like comparing a normal cylinder of steel to a StillPoint.
They have a HUGE following and many have touted them to be the best there is. They are the only footers that defy explanation scientifically, or at least they do to me. So I hold judgement until my ears evaluate them.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the Shun Mook Diamond Resonators are even more complicated than the Mpingo disc. Maybe there should be a course on how to knock off Shun Mook resonators. Like the Shun Mook Spatial Kit, that has three Mpingo discs on a wood bracket, the Diamond Resonators have to be all like tricked out when they’re assembled so the separate discs won’t interfere with each other. You know, since they’re directional. Been there done that. I would however, very much like to have a set of Giant Diamond Resonators.
Geoffkait - whatever it takes. We’re audiphiles..... we do ridiculous things to get better sound. If I need to spend a bit of time getting the most out of these tweaky bastards then so be it. All in the name of good sound! Huzzah!
i have no intention of knocking anything off. My comment was in regards to CTSooner saying he’s going to try some simple pieces of ebony under his components when I mentioned the Shun Mook product. I simply stated that the Shun Mook Resonators were as far from a block of normal run of the mill ebony as a StillPoint is from a normal cylinder of Steel.
Matt, you know I was kidding....well sort of. I WILL get a few pieces as I have a couple of nice pieces of Gabon in the basement. I was actually told by a few that they use them under their gear. I may as well try ;).... I have heard the same things about Shun Mook for years. It can't defy physic's, it's just that we don't know enough about them. I wonder if they stumbled onto how they work or if they figured something out that no one else has. Regardless, it will be interesting to hear your thoughts as always Matt.
BTW, you have have three pieces of steel AND aluminum piping that is 1.5" in diameter? I'll even try to mix and match the two materials, ;).....
I honestly can't wait to hear your thoughts on this last (will it be last) round of footers/shelves. You know how amazed I am at what you are doing here as you are not letting any biases creep in. It's your ear and your gear, but there is an overall sound that you come up with so that folks can figure out for themselves, what they will like. That's why this is a 4 year old thread and it's going strong...Very strong.
Just got off the phone to Dalby, they do still exist and they seem to be doing rather well outside the U.K. One of their many products is a footer at £3.5k a set.
Unless I’m missing something the $3K Dalby feet do not employ ebony or even wood of any kind. Better check it out. 🙄 - your friend and humble scribe (onwards and upwards!)
The D7-CBF isolation feet preserves all of the delicate nuances within the recording whilst spreading the widest holographic soundstage. We recommend using 3 D7-CBF isolation feet with 2 positioned at the rear and one central at the front. You may need to experiment on absolute placement depending on where the weight load is within each component.
D7-CBF60 Feet DNA
• 3mm wall thickness carbon fibre suspending solid brass parts • 3 point ceramic bearing decoupling system • 9 carat gold finish over solid brass • Compound reservoir to eliminate vertical vibration • Precision brass supporting the carbon fibre at both ends • Optional anodised black finish on request • Available in sets of 3 and 4
Working parameters: Turntables, Power amplifiers and power supplies.
Conservative rating of up to: 75kg (165.3Ibs) per isolation foot
I believe they are not offering those ones, the current model uses a type of hardwood. I’m not a dealer or have any interest in Dalby, although that may change if they are worth the money. They make cables as well but mucho expensive.
Very expensive, sort of Skogrand territory I think. I’ll stick to Sablon, affordable S.O.T.A. which is quite understated and comes without any packaging whatsoever. More my style.
I don’t have the Shun Mooks GDR yet. The check is on its way to Shun Mook. I did just get in a set of the Magico Qpods. So I’ll compare those two to the Symposium when the GDR arrive and report.
I posted a pretty thorough video about Footers, Shelves and Racks on my YouTube channel:
So you are saying that nothing beast super..........Gottcha!
Just a very difficult task to compare the footers and shelves. So many variables. What I'm finding most interesting is that no matter what he does to his Burmeister Preamp that sits on it's own solid steel base, is that none of these seem to matter (Matt???). Maybe more manufacturers need to work on vibration control in their gear and at least offer upgrades for bases......
CTSooner - you are correct. It seams to be impervious to footers. I shall still try the Qpods and the Shun Mook though. Just to confirm. Might have something to do with the massive plinth the preamp sits on. I do need to try footers between the plinth and preamp. Just to try.....
I just checked. There’s a lot of effort that went into the footers and plinth for the Burmester Preamp. The footer is milled and has a carbon fiber cone on the bottom that sits on a carbon fiber disc set into a milled hollow in the plinth. The footer is not attached with a single central screw. Each footer has 3 screws 120 degrees offset (ie. In a triangle). There was a LOT of thought and effort that went into vibrational damping. And it shows since it is abjectly immune to any resonance control devices.
Interestingly, the Burmester amps just have pretty standard footers screwed in and respond well to after market footers.
Under the Memory Player, the HRS Nimbus gives a better sense of dynamic presence and tightens the imaging. Makes the music more engaging with a better sense of pace and rhythm. That sheet metal case of the MP definitely enjoys the rubber! I have yet to try the Symposium Ultra shelf and rollerblocks under the MP yet though. I’m REALLY curious!!! It’s hard to move that stuff alone, but I’ve got to do that!!
I love the form factor of the Qpod.
I’d put the Qpods with the Stillpoint Ultra 5’s, Vortex and Ansuz Darkz. All excellent. Can’t really go wrong with any of them. They will all have a subtle voice of their own. I need to get them under the DAC to identify that voice though.
I’m still not certain that the Qpods are balanced and smooth through the full frequency spectrum. I think they may highlight mids and highs a tad. Await further testing and I need some other ears to confirm what I have heard thus far.
outstanding stuff. Yes, that plinth of theirs needs to be used on other top products. it's not the most difficult thing to have something like that milled and at least offer it for sale, lol....Pretty cool though.
Matt, what was that convo we had about this last week?/?? LMAO....;)....I wasn't kidding when I said that was the best sound isolation I've ever heard and it was 100% vinyl. It made the world of difference. They were outstanding rooms too of course.
If you can keep the speaker cable runs under 8', you should be ok. Longer is worse as we all know. You could put the amps in the room with 3' runs and just run the interconnects from the outside. Use the cable lifters on them and you will be fine. It's all better than spending all that money on a 20k plus rack, shelves and then footers for most. Just two shelves and footers for the amps. your amps are so solid, that I wonder how much difference the footers will do for them.
There’s pretty much no way anyone would be able to put the amps in a different room and keep the speaker run under 8’. Unless you put them right below the speakers in the room under the room with the speakers in them.
It would have to be the preamp to amp run. But this conversation is moot, since I won’t be doing that. ;)
LMAO....come on...just dig a new basement in the foundation......
:).....You would put the amps in the room next to teh speakers and JUST worry about a platform and footers for those two. Everything else would be simple to set up. The only long run would be the preamp to amps run. I don't know if you even have the room for that and even if you did, you wouldn't easily be able to figure all of that out. That was more for how this dealer set up his runs etc... (the one I told you about in Cali). I think it was near Chatsworth or in Chatsworth.
I just will always remember that back then, he realized there was a vibration problem and spent as much time on high end cable as he did vibration control. His system sounded incredible and I forget what the heck he was even running.
I just got Isoacoustic Orea indigo footers under my dac and Allnic H3000 phono stage It works great so I order more Orea Bordeaux for my Allnic amp and Iso Pucks for Aurender server and H3000 power supply I think you (Mattnshilp) better try Orea Bordeaux since you like Gaia . I think for the price Orea Its almost miracle. I am very satisfied with result.
Tkchaq - I tried and reported on the Bordeaux. They are awesome. I have a set under my Torus power conditioner.
Elizabeth - although the inexpensive tweaks can sometimes make an improvement, they can also make the sound worse. Just because it’s rubber and can be used as a footer doesn’t mean it should be. Every piece in your system should be tested in and out to determine if it makes it better or worse. Cheap doesn’t make it bad though. Bad makes it bad. 👍🏻
Wig - looks intriguing. Congrats on what sounds like a great find. There are a few special dac’s our there that truly perform above their price point. Think Schitt, Mojo, Empirical Audio, Exogal and a few others just beyond the tip of my brain....
Great opportunities for those without unlimited resources exist, and finding these pearls makes this hobby that much better!
We did the big move. The rack is now up front between the speakers. Many nay-sayers have quoted me the age old concept that the rack goes anywhere but between the speakers. I designed my custom listening room with that in mind and my rack has occupied the space to the right of my listening position for years, with a very expensive 8.5m balanced run from preamp in the side rack to the amps up front.
About 3 months ago I had the opportunity to upgrade my speaker wire to the Crystal Cable Absolute Dream cable and what they did to my system was revolutionary! The change was SO dramatic that I immediately began thinking I need to upgrade my very expensive Shunyata Anaconda interconnects with the very very very expensive Absolute Dream XLR interconnects. The problem is, an 8.5m run of XLR Absolute Dream would be $96,000- retail! 😵
So the only other option was to move all my gear up front and keep the preamp-amp run to 1m. But then I had to put the rack between the speakers, and that’s supposedly bad (especially since my speakers are pretty close to the front wall and the rack can’t be placed that far behind the front speaker baffles).
Step one - I had to buy extra parts to reconfigure my current rack to a 2 tall, 3 wide rack. Amps on the bottom left and right, preamp in between. DAC above the preamp centrally and the server to the top left, power conditioner to the top right.
Step two - Try every (well, not every, but the ones that look most intriguing) major manufacturer footers and shelves since it’s impossible to audition a complete rack so I decided that a footer/shelf combo should give a solid taste of what a full rack would do. I have been reporting along the way here and on my YouTube channel.
Step 3 - Order a 10 gauge outdoor 25’ extension cord so I can plug my system in on the side wall and then move it up front without having to change ANYTHING including the power supply. And then let it burn in for a few weeks.
Step 4 - Invite some good ears over that are connected to reasonably strong arms and backs so we can listen with rack on side and then move it up front between the speakers and compare directly.
Step 5 - Buy said good ears with strong backs lunch for their efforts and assistance!
Well, step 1-5 are now complete. Lunch was great!
The very appreviated report on the affects of the rack being moved up front is that it sounds just about the same up front after 45 minutes of letting the system re-aclimate to the front. Especially since we had to unplug and replug everything in when we took the rack apart and moved it. At first it wasn’t as good, but it improved with time as the equipment re-stabilized. We did have to move the DAC onto the floor because with the shelf and footers the DAC came up high enough that it covered some of the front treatments and clearly affected sound.
So the two factors that made the biggest difference was keeping everything at least 6-10” behind the front speaker baffle, at least. And most important was keeping everything LOW LOW LOW! if I can get the top edge of the top shelf to be just under 20” off the ground that would be awesome. And if we can get lower, even better. Ideal would be to have the top of the top piece of equipment be no higher then 18-20”.
Everyone agreed that getting the new 1m interconnects will yield a massive gain in overall performance, especially since there appeared to be no appreciable change with the rack move.
Stay tuned for thoughts on what new rack I am most considering. (Shhhhhhh - The Symposium product is amazing!!!)
For those waiting on DAC info, I am working on the Mojo evaluation. Getting closer. I have arranged for a top tier Tidal DAC to grace my room. And I’m still trying to find the time to audition the full TotalDAC twelve system. I’ve been hearing raves about the MSB Select and would love to get one into my room....I’ll keep trying!
Oh, I also have the new top tier Wavac DAC on potential evaluation; that’s in the works as well.
your thread is really helping me with the new room that i'm making. I had also looked at a lot of ideas to install the racks, but in the end i've also decided that keeping the racks low at the centre might me the best compromise. It was nice to get some sort of confirmation form your recent experiment. Thanks again for sharing your audiophile ocd experiments. Cheers
Long and low is good. I have two shelves 1350 long ( 4ft 6in), top shelf at 450 high (18 ins), placed as far back as possible relative to the front of the speakers.
Yes , mattnshilp i'm regularly following it & thank you again for doing the videos on power lines. It Did help me reconfirm & plan my stuff. While the power lines were discussed i was toying with the idea of getting balanced power or getting my neutral earthed, with an isolation transformer. I've decided to go the balanced power path. let's see how it pans out. All the best Regards
Toetap - I lied. I do know the CenterStage. They are not actually from Pitch Perfect, they are from Critical Mass racks distributed exclusively by Pitch Perfect. They are a footer version of their constrained layer damping shelf technology. As such, I have no doubt whatsoever that they will be effective. HOWEVER, like the Qpods I question the efficacy of the constrained layer damping technology in a footer, since the physical size of th footer may simply not be enough mass to truly allow any statistically significant amount of damping to occur. The Qpods clearly work but I found them (although my jury is still out) to not be 100% even across the full frequency spectrum. I attributed that to the limited size of the footer. Now Critical Mass is the premier leader in the field, so if anyone is going to do a constrained layer damping footer right, it’s them! I would need to hear them to give them my formal support.
I have officially decided to go with Symposium so I don’t need CLD footers on my shelves and my footers need to conduct that energy to the shelves to be properly managed. A similar size/shape top level CM shelf would be 3X more expensive.
Yes, thanks. That was a good summary. The mystery is that users report that the CS footers take a while to “burn in”, up to 7/10 days apparently and before that point, they sound terrible. Sounds like some sort of annealing process going on due to the vibrations passing through?
I have the IsoAcoustic Orea’s Indigos on test at the moment. They work really well and considering their cost they are a great starting point. I’m sure the Symposium will be a step up though, but with shipping costs from US it will be a much more expensive set up.
I’m also talking to Stacore in Poland about their shelf’s. I’m in touch with someone who really likes Symposium and who has gone over to Stacore. He currently uses both. It’s seriously expensive though and weighs 100kg. Something I’m going to explore in the longer term.
Critical Mass says the same of their shelves. I think it has to do with the viscoelastic material compressing to its fully compressed state over a few days before it achieves proper thickness to effectively distribute heat. As I have said, I believe CM is on the cutting edge of shelf and rack design, the best in the industry. But you pay for that!!! And I am not convinced that for the same money that you can get the CS footers, you can probably get the same or better performance from a less expensive Symposium Ultra shelf. But until I hear that I can’t say for sure.
Yes, the Orea and Gaia are ridiculous value for the money. Nothing comes close for that price.
The Stacore looks interesting. But at almost 100kg and not available in the US it’s not on the table, so to speak.
PS - My Giant Diamond Resonator ShunMook footers have arrived. I haven’t had a chance to do anything but look at them. They sure are nice to look at though. Eval to come.
In the event you decide you don’t like the Shun Mook jobbers I’m an instant buyer. 😎 Oh, by the way, you guys can keep all that other stuff, just gimme a Minus K and the Shun Mooks to put under it. 🤡
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