Putting together a reference level system. My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's. For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling? USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Benjamin here from Mojo Audio to let you know about our new Mystique EVO D/A converter: https://www.mojo-audio.com/mystique-evo-d-a-converter/ Currently we have quite a few months of back orders, but once we catch up, I’ll be sending one to Matt for review. The short answer is the entry-level EVO is the next evolution of our award-winning Mystique v3 DAC.
Among some of the standard upgrades we’ve done, our new EVO has a better USB input with the latest XMOS chip, a better analog output stage with Sparkos Labs new SS2590 pro audio discrete op amps, an improved power supply with 16X Belleson SPX regulators, better shielding and anti-resonance, an XLR/AES balanced S/PDIF input with optional Lundahl amorphous core input transformer upgrade, and even optional Lundahl ferrous and amorphous core power supply choke upgrades. The Lundahl amorphous core power supply choke upgrade in the analog section sounds beyond beyond.
Unlike most companies who use the term "EVO" with their products, our new Mystique has the ability to upgrade the entry-level version to our most advanced version.
Wouldn’t it be nice to know you have an upgrade and update path engineered into your next DAC?
Plus we’re planning on new digital input stages, new analog output stages, and even some pretty rare vintage R-2R DAC chip upgrades. I’ve been stocking up on the ultra-rare PCM63P-K2 and PCM63-Y chips that we’ll be releasing with one of our next D/A board upgrades. And as with all Mojo Audio products, our new Mystique EVO comes with a 45-day no-risk audition. All you have to lose is your misconceptions :^)
.I wanted to let folks know that Matt is writing for TAS and another pub (sorry Matt, I forgot which one). For those who talk to him and know him, he's a great writer and very thorough in his reviews. I'm blessed to have found this thread years ago as we've become very good friends and I never would have known about Empirical Audio and Steve, who I also consider a good acquaintance. I found out about other smaller digital companies who push the boundaries. Lot's of great new digital gear has been found by many, because of this wonderful thread.
Heck, Matt even talked me into the The Memory Player by Laufer. Sam even built a DAC into mine and it's world class.
I'm sure Matt will let me know when he gets your Mojo in his set up. I'm sure it will sound great like so many of the newer DAC's do. This is still my favorite thread on the boards.
They the "clan" here were doggedly stuck on their views of what sounded best for RedBook CD, which they thought was DS (delta sigma) based units, and they tried every new unit that came along.
I mentioned to them that R2R Ladder was the future for PCM Redbook, but couldn't shift them off DS conversion.
I tried to get them to take on board the new class of R2R Ladder dac units, especially the latest breed of "Discrete" R2R ones, but I was shot down time I mentioned it. In the end I just gave up. The old adage, "time will tell".
Hi Branislav. The thread fizzled out because I am now an active contributing reviewing author for Enjoy The Music and The Absolute Sound. I had been using a Light Harmonic Davinci 2 DAC for many years now (which IS a ladder DAC, so I don’t know what GeorgeHiFi is even talking about) as my ultimate reference. But I just moved over to a Pilium Elektra; which uses eight AK4493 in Dual Mono. It’s is spectacular! The Davinci2 is for sale if anyone is interested. I’m STILL ever searching, and my access to top tier is better then ever. Contrary to what George has been screaming from his soap box forever about R2R being the ONLY way to go, a good DAC is not just about the DAC chip. It is a sum of its’ parts and design elegance.
Follow my reviews on Enjoy The Music and The Absolute Sound. And watch what is in my personal system. I will be reviewing the Taiko Extreme music server shortly for ETM. I have high expectations for that unit! My reference for years has been the Memory Player, but it has its quirks. The new Aurender A30 also looks intriguing. Lots of great digital gear out now.
As I was on this thread, I endeavor to always be honest and sincere in my published reviews.
so I don’t know what GeorgeHiFi is even talking about
Yes you do, your next statement below proves it.
Contrary to what George has been screaming from his soap box forever about R2R being the ONLY way to go, a good DAC is not just about the DAC chip. It is a sum of its’ parts and design elegance.
Don’t twist things, it’s the D to A conversion process that’s foremost, and yes the other things are important also. I always maintained R2R was the best way for RedBook
to be converted, which is (PCM 16/44 24/96 and DXD), which is the title to your thread. "Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD" https://youtu.be/MMzd40i8TfA
Hey Matt...If you get a chance to audition the Luxman D-10X you may be pleasantly surprised! Just make sure the player has at least five to six hundred hours of burn in time for a full flavor of the exceptional audio quality...
George. You said, “They the "clan" here were doggedly stuck on their views of what sounded best for RedBook CD, which they thought was DS (delta sigma) based units, and they tried every new unit that came along.”
So, yes. I don’t know what your talking about. Because my reference WAS an R2R. So clearly we the “clan” were NOT “doggedly stuck” on Delta Sigma only. But you will make an argument out of an agreement. So YES!!!! For George’s sake.....
for gods sake, DONT BUY ANYTHING BUT AN R2R DAC OR YOU WILL LITERALLY BE MAKING THE BIGGEST MISTAKE OF YOUR LIFE!!!!!! It is IMPOSSIBLE To build a Delta Sigma DAC that could ever be better then the best R2R DAC.
There ya go George. We said it. 👍🏻
PS - That is not true. There are no absolutes. Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Are you a Sith George?
PPS - that Sith comment was a total JOKE!!! I do NOT think George is a Sith. Not that I have anything against Sith’s. I mean, they are usually bad but who knows, maybe there is a nice Sith out there. But George isn’t a Sith. I think. I’m pretty sure at least. If I die by force choking after he reads this post then he might be a Sith. Or I could have just choked on some sushi. Who knows really.
Do what you should do. Read reviews. Think for yourself. Go LISTEN. And then make your own choice. 😎
Alomrd- will do. I don’t review anything digital until it has at least 750 hours on it. 1000 is better. Digital takes a long time to burn in. Thanks for the suggestion.
Matt you just promoted what you were reviewing at the time which was all DS ESS stuff back then, you couldn’t get any of the new discrete R2R stuff, so it was bagged every time I bought it up as being the best conversion process for RedBook!!! The tile of this thread!!
George may quite possibly have vindicated his point of view ? Quote from Larry Ho - Founder and President Light Harmonic
"Da Vinci will support DSD64 and DSD128. We actually put TWO DAC's core into one chassis.Use best R2R structure for PCM RedBook And delta-sigma for DSD conversion."
Not that I wan to engage George. I really don’t because he is SO one sided. BUT. I just replaced my Davinci2 with a Pilium Elektra DAC that uses Delta Sigma chips, eight of them to be specific. And to my ears it bettered the mighty Davinci2, which is one of the best dacs ever built. My point being that R2R dac chips are awesome. And can make amazing dacs. But it is not the ONLY way to get to statement level digital conversion. Whereas George opines that R2R is the ONLY way to get to the top.
I know I said over and out, but I can’t let this BS go on.
Not that I wan to engage George.
Well you just did again, and still can’t see the forest for the trees
Even though the mega dollar dac you "owned for years" (Light Harmonic Da Vinci) uses two different dacs, Larry Ho went to the trouble of doing both with, for PCM (R2R) and for DSD (Delta Sigma)
Known facts: R2R Ladder converts PCM (redbook 16/44 24/96 and DXD) "bit perfect" Delta Sigma conversion does sacd (dsd), but can only give a "facsimile" of PCM RedBook
Thank you George. You have throughly proven your point. We all will only buy R2R ladder dacs now that you have opened our eyes. I stand corrected and apologize for ever contradicting your point. You clearly know best. 👍🏻
As I have said before I usually don't side with George but despite of the possible flaws ladder dacs might have I personally prefer these over DS. I totally agree with science.
OMG I'm listening to an almost 1st pressing original house of the holy I got from Discogs
luisma31 despite of the possible flaws ladder dacs might have I personally prefer these over DS. I totally agree with science. OMG I’m listening to an almost 1st pressing original house of the holy I got from Discogs
I've heard a lot of the top DAC's and some were chips and some were ladder types. Every top designer I've spoken with have played with both and feel that the newer chips, if implemented properly will perform better than the ladder types.
That said some of my favorite DAC's do use ladder type and some use traditional DAC chips. When folks make blanket statements as you do and probably always will, you lose credibility. There are multiple ways to skin a cat and that's reality especially when the chips are getting better and better.
I have a Resolution Audio Cantata 2.0. I had the Holo Audio May KTE for trial and, in my system, it would have been a lateral move, so it went back.
I have a Lampizator TRP w/ vc on its way for a trial, but would love some suggestions.
As a reference point, the best DAC I've ever heard was the original Light Harmonic DaVinci, but I can't find any on the used market and cannot come even close to the cost of new model, which I haven't heard yet. I also was able to compare a highly upgraded Lampizator GG1 (which the owner calls GG1.9) with 242 tubes side-by-side with the Cantata and it was CRUSHED, which is why I'm trying to give the TRP a go, hoping that it will play close to that level with the right tubes.
I am not a tubes person, but if the TRP does what it supposed to do I will begrudgingly keep it.
So, suggestions, used or new, in the $4k - $6k range are welcome.
BTW, I didn't give the Cantata 3.0 a go because I was not able to audition it and I did not want to buy blind.
@reverendo Just a question for a clarification, did you think the Lampizator GG crushed the Cantata or vice versa? I interpreted your statement as the former but wanted to make sure.
Very interesting discussion and I am late to the party. I have read / skimmed most entries, but excuse me if this has been mentioned.
I own and highly recommend the Mola Mola Tambaqui. It easily bested (to me) my old PS Audio DS, Auralic Vega G2, Chord Dave and a few others I have auditioned in my system. It just sounds better.
It was made available to me prior to purchase to audition from Bill at GTT Audio. In my Audionet and Mola Mola systems it sounds fantastic. I have both YG Hailey and Revel Salon2 speakers.
I believe it sounds great with CD quality, as well as sounding even better with High Res files.
It is Roon capable and is a streamer as well as DAC.
Finally, to me, all of the DAC's I have owned benefit from a (good) preamp.
the former: the Cantata got crushed. and I LOVE my Cantata (have had it for 9 years now - the longest I've had any piece of equipment). it wasn't subtle nor pretty.
@fastfreight I've heard great things about the Tambaqui (which, by coincidence is the tastiest fish I know). I just believe it's above my budget new and although I might be able to stretch to the used one I see for sale at the moment, I don't want to buy blind. I believe I could get one loaned from the local dealer, since I know him personally, but I just don't feel comfortable loaning it to go and buy a used one right thereafter. 🤷♂️
btw, the Salon2 speakers are incredible in their own right. and I normally associate some incredibly high-current and high-powered amps to drive any YG. they are normally a pig to drive.
@mattnshilp
I also lust for Gryphon's Kalliope, but, again, way beyond my budget. 😢 will PM you, even if just for morbid curiosity. 😜
Reverendo, if you are serious about the DaVinci MK2, I know someone who is about to sell. Feel free to DM me if you have interest. He's got two of the best DAC's money can buy in the house. One is the larger Davinci that was just redone I believe. I can't share the other one just yet.
Sure do hope Matt will dig a bit deeper. Is the Wadax the true "ultimate reference"? Does Soulution's flagship compare? And what of Playback Design's MPD-8?!
As for "r2r georgehifi", I sincerely hope you are well. No need to follow up yet again in this thread. Take care of yourself.
Playback Design Internally converts All PCM to DSD 128 which Andreas believes is sweet spot. See below
How does the MPD-8 process files?
“All digital input signals (including DSD64) are converted to DSD128 with our proprietary frequency and time domain algorithms that also includes an apodizing filter. DSD256 is processed separately. Before the DSD128 or processed DSD256 signals are converted to analog, we use another proprietary and new algorithm to convert the signal to a different format with a bit rate of 2048 (16 times DSD128).”
Why do you prefer DSD processing in your DAC designs?
“Because DSD is single bit it inherently avoids all non-linearity distortions that multibit converters have. Most of the challenges in a single bit converter are on the digital side where you can use virtually unlimited, programmable and mostly very predictable resources to tackle the job. The signal in our converters right before the actual conversion to analog is so close to being analog already, that the conversion is no challenge at all with no exotic components. That makes the system performance very consistent and predictable. Exactly the reason why SACD was launched 20 years ago
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