welcome back buddy. Glad that it was a great trip. Elizebeth, I too have heard that marantz. I think most equate it with their mass market stuff. Most have not heard their reference gear which is very nice sounding. I like warm and not 'hot' gear. I don't put your DAC into either category. I think it's a fairly neutral sound with a bit of dynamics. If anything, the soundstage was a bit more intimate than say the Empirical ODSE/SE that I owned. Steve's gear threw huge stages. The Marantz seemed to me to be a nice piece.
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,487 responses Add your response
Next to the Total Dac, this was another jaw dropping moment that really impressed when converting pcm Redbook either 16/44 or 24/96. http://www.aquahifi.com/la_scala.html Cheers George |
@georgehifi Funny you mentioned these two, we had exactly this shoot out for a whole day on a reviewers system at his place in the beautiful Blue Mtns on his Wilson Alexia MkII, Gryphon Antillion Evo Signature my passive pre. We also went direct, with the same results.We had 5 techs, 3 non techs at our meeting and were all insistent on perfect level matching. Did you really only use a passive preamp or direct to DAC for this DAC comparison? This would give the Total DAC a big advantage, as its output is 6.4 Vrms max, compared to the Briscasti's 2 Vrms. |
I just replaced what could best be described as a “vintage” Musical Fidelity A3.5 CD player with an Oppo 85 after reading many, many positive opinions on Oppo in general. I had previously perceived Oppo as “ mass market “ stuff, and while this is a universal disc player with outstanding reviews on its blue ray capabilities, it was lauded for its cd audio. And deservedly so. The Oppo made virtually all of my redbook discs remarkably better in every respect. The only discs it didn’t improve sonically were those that were badly recorded - which no player can manage. Unfair though my comparison may be - the MF A3.5 is significantly older - the Oppo absolutely was an immediate improvement. And for $500 used. One of the best dollar/value additions to my stuff in recent times. Woohoo. Modwright KWI-200 Integrated Marantz TT-15 Turntable Sony HapZ1ES Maggie 1.7i and Vandersteen 3A Signature (Still trying to decide between these - tough!) |
headphonedreams - I am also in the side that thinks that all common architectures (R2R, DS, FPGA) can work when implemented with care.... Hi everyone. I’m pretty good at using google. That said, may I ask the opinions of the folks on this thread for a very brief (sentence or two) explanation as to the advantages and/or disadvantages of "FPGA" in comparison to the other two architectures. Thank you. |
Sound quality in an audio system is of course a "system" thing involving every single part. I feel that both the source and the speakers are the dominating factors. In the case of my two different DAC technologies, I compared them head-to-head in the same system at the same time. The D/S won hands-down. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
So, which one was used?? The devil is in the details here. I recently asked a reviewer that did a DAC shootout what interface was used to make the comparison and he refused to tell me. What kind of a reviewer does that? Did you really only use a passive preamp or direct to DAC for this DAC comparison? Another detail that could easily skew the results. These types of shootouts must be carefully thought-out so a fair comparison can be made. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Did you really only use a passive preamp or direct to DAC for this DAC comparison? If you bother to have read it, we also went direct. And there was a preamp (that I didn’t want to mention as Mick Maloney is an acquaintance of mine but seeing you want to know) The reviewer who’s system we used is Edgar Kramer of Audio Esoterica, Australian HiFI, 6 moons, and is also the principal of Soundstage Australia, and if you bother to do some work you’ll find he also has a Supratek DHT Reference which was used but taken out as it didn’t give what the other configurations gave, as it was too coloured. https://www.soundstageaustralia.com/index.php/reviews/84-wilson-audio-specialties-alexia-series-2-lo... This would give the Total DAC a big advantage, as its output is 6.4 Vrms max, compared to the Briscasti’s 2 Vrms. Absolutely no advantage whatsoever, helps if you know about input sensitivity that the Gryphone Antillion only needs 1v in to give it’s full power out. The Bricasti has more than enough to clip the Gryphone if it needs to. Cheers George |
audioengr2,905 posts04-21-2018 1:02pm
So, which one was used?? The devil is in the details here. I recently asked a reviewer that did a DAC shootout what interface was used to make the comparison and he refused to tell me. What kind of a reviewer does that? Did you really only use a passive preamp or direct to DAC for this DAC comparison? Another detail that could easily skew the results. These types of shootouts must be carefully thought-out so a fair comparison can be made. Steve N. Empirical Audio What reviewer does that? One who has no clue as to what a reviewer does or what a legit review is. That's pretty sad if you ask me (which you didn't). Teh problem I have with audio reviews now days is lack of transparency by many/most. There are just too many folks who get gear for free or at material's cost and then sell it without paying taxes to supplement their income. I also used to love folks like Tom Gillet who also used his last name backwards to do The Cheapskate Audiophile, Sam Tellig. I get pen names and all (was a journalism major in college), but he was never on the up and up based on what many dealers and manufacturer's would say back in teh day. That's why I stopped reading Stereophile on a regular basis. JMHO |
Absolutely no advantage whatsoever, helps if you know about input sensitivity that the Gryphone Antillion only needs 1v in to give it’s full power out. The Bricasti has more than enough to clip the Gryphone if it needs to. Sensitivity is insufficient to predict performance. This will only predict output level and maybe clipping level. What is needed is the output impedance and drive required to deliver dynamics from the amplifier. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Absolutely no advantage whatsoever, helps if you know about input sensitivity that the Gryphone Antillion only needs 1v in to give it’s full power out. The Bricasti has more than enough to clip the Gryphone if it needs to. This is insufficient to predict overall performance. This will only predict output level and maybe clipping level. What it needed is the output impedance and the drive required of the amps to deliver dynamic response. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
You know very well as I do that the output impedance on both are very similar with discrete transistor direct coupled outputs at 40ohms Bricasti and 32ohms Total, and clipping or drive is not the issue for either direct into 100kohm of the Gryphone, nor into the 10kohms of the Lightspeed Attenuator. Cheers George |
Steve and George (nice to discuss something of audiophile significance besides R2R with you finally), the gain/impedance matching between preamp and amps is a HUGE point and can’t be over stated. Personally, I have tried running many of the DAC’s I have auditioned direct to my amp and I have tried using Steve’s Final Drive. I have ALWAYS preferred a preamp in between the DAC and amp.... always. In fact, I have pretty much always preferred using a same company preamp and amp for the same broad reason; the preamp is specifically designed to output the correct gain and impedance to best match the amps input stage. The only situations where I see bypassing the preamp as possibly the same or better would be the using a DAC and amp of the same brand where the DAC is also specifically designed to output directly to the amps. Jeff Rowland’s Aeris DAC is a good example of this. Of course, this is a personal opinion and many mix preamps and amps of different brands with good success, but I chose to always keep amps and preamp of same manufacturer to get the most out of a system. I have had several Bricasti dacs in my room and have always preferred my preamp in between. I also had an MSB DAC IV and it also sounded best with my preamp in the signal path. I look forward to auditioning the TotalDAC system and will absolutely try it with and without. |
Thanks Matt. As you know I have always felt the same way. You know how concerned I am to potentially run The Memory Player direct into the new Vandersteen mono blocks IF I decide to get them as I can't afford those AND a preamp (would then sell my Ayre AX5/20 integrated, so I wouldn't have a stand alone pre). Again, I don't mind properly done integrated products as they are matched perfectly and usually by the same engineer. |
@georgehifi If you bother to have read it, we also went direct. And there was a preamp (that I didn’t want to mention as Mick Maloney is an acquaintance of mine but seeing you want to know) Oh the irony. 😂 YOU may want to GO BACK TO SCHOOL and LEARN HOW TO READ. In the same statement you quoted: Did you really only use a passive preamp OR DIRECT TO DAC for this DAC comparison? The reviewer who’s system we used is Edgar Kramer of Audio Esoterica, Australian HiFI, 6 moons, and is also the principal of Soundstage Australia, and if you bother to do some work you’ll find he also has a Supratek DHT Reference which was used but taken out as it didn’t give what the other configurations gave, as it was too coloured. It also seems like you are confused on the gear you listened to. Based on a quick search, it looks like there is a Gryphon Antillion Evo, and a Gryphon Antillion Signature. The link that you provided shows it is the Gryphon Antillion Evo ........direct into 100kohm of the Gryphone, nor into the 10kohms of the Lightspeed Attenuator. Where did you see a 100 KOhm spec, or learn how to spell Gryphon? The spec sheet only shows a 20 KOhm input impedance. http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/Content/Downloads/Technical_Specifications.pdf . |
Here is what I recommend: 1) Chord DAVE DAC 2) Chord Blu2 CD transport and Upsampler. The combination of the Chord DAVE and BLU2 as an upsampler is very good and you can get both new and still be within your 20K budget. I currently have 2 other tube DACS: Zanden 5000Mk IV and Allnic D5000. Both are very good also but the Chord DAVE/BLU2 combo is better. The BLU2 takes the DAVE to another higher level. You need both of them linked together to get the maximize the sound quality. have an all tube audio system. The only devices that are non-tube in my current system is the Chord DAVE/BLU2. FWIW. |
DDriveman - thank you. I don’t blame anyone for not searching through the previous 84 pages since it’s a daunting task, but I owned and sold the DAVE, auditioned the Allnic D5000, and have had the Zanden DAC and phono stage in my room (owned and sold the Zanden phono stage). In total disclosure, the Blu2 was not yet released so I did NOT hear the DAVE “fully loaded”. But the DAVE, on its own, although very good, did not overshadow several other dacs in its price range and just under it. It’s form factor and function were seriously cool beans, but in the end it couldn’t compete with other dacs I was listening to at the time. And although I desperately avoid being jaded, I REALLY wanted to like the DAVE. As a headphone DAC/amp combo it is, however, VERY hard to beat! I don’t know if the Blu2 will compensate for the faults I found in the DAVE. I do have a friend who is a dealer and he has a DAVE on demo but not a Blu2. I will see if he can bring in a Blu2 and have him bring both over. Allnic was disapponting at best. I have a full review posted in the distant pages back. Zanden was what you would expect. Sweet, engaging, luscious and felt like being engulfed by a giant teddy bear while listening. It was musical and engaging but lacked fine detail and accuracy, typical Zanden sound. I’m talking micro here, not macro. In the right system, Zanden can last and provide a lifetime of happy ownership. I see it joining a Zanden preamp and amps (or maybe Octave if you wanted to increase clarity and resolution a notch), and a pair of Acapella horn speakers in a medium to large room. Jazz and blues and chamber music and choir..... oh mee oh my!!!! 👍🏻👍🏻 |
Matt, how are the teddy bears doing? LMAO...I loved that one! I Actually had the Dave in twice. I have heard it numerous times in many systems. I choice teh Ayre QX5 over Dave as to me, it has better bass quantity and quality. That's just me in my system. As we have discussed so often, digital is much more prone to sounding different in every system. As much as there is a house sound etc.... the type of electrical you feed it along with the connections you use will GREATLY affect it. YMMV. |
You know very well as I do that the output impedance on both are very similar with discrete transistor direct coupled outputs at 40ohms Bricasti and 32ohms Total, and clipping or drive is not the issue for either direct into 100kohm of the Gryphone, nor into the 10kohms of the Lightspeed Attenuator. No, I don't know this. It is really easy to get entirely different AC impedance by having different power delivery to the output stage, even if everything else is identical, which I'm certain it is not. Even 40 versus 32 is a big difference. These are static measurements, not dynamic. The input DC resistance of the amps is not very relevant either. The issue is the di/dt current required to achieve dynamics from the amps. Most amps have 50K-100K input resistance. This is simply the resistor soldered at the inputs, not the same as the input impedance of the active devices. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I agree. Sometimes it can work out, but a good preamp, usually tubes will make the playing field much more fair for DAC shootouts. DACs just don't have the low output impedance that a good preamp will have. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Sometimes it can work out, but a good preamp, usually tubes will make the playing field much more fair for DAC shootouts. Yes a tube pre will equalise the sound qualities in a shootout, with it's own colourations. DACs just don't have the low output impedance that a good preamp will have. In regards to the Total or the Bricasti output stages this is definitely not true. They are every bit as good as any preamps output stage. I'll pick on the Bricasti seeing it's jut a smidgen behind the Total in regards to drive and output impedance. The Total and Bricasti's discrete solid state output stages will shame "nearly" all tube preamps in output impedance and current drive ability, and many solid state pre's as well, in regards to be able to drive into amps with resistive and or capacitive hard loads The Bricasti's output stage tested driving into a punishing 600ohm load https://www.stereophile.com/images/212BM1fig12.jpg This is tube pre PS Audio BHK Signature that has a very good rep (for a tube) to be able into hard loads, into the same 600ohm load as the Bricasti. https://www.stereophile.com/images/617ps.PSABHKfig6.jpg Here is an Ayre solid state with 31ohms output impedance with good cred for driving low load impedance's. With the same 600ohm load https://www.stereophile.com/images/611AK5fig5.jpg Cheers George |
| Post removed |
Hola a todos, utilizo como DAC en mi sistema el Schiit Yggdrasil http://www.schiit.com/products/yggdrasil Una máquina estupenda de conversión digital analógica diseñada exclusivamente para ello. Tanto a través de su conexión por USB como balanceado digital, con un sonido muy completo y envolvente. Te da una escena sonora estupenda y la música que tengo almacenada en el Mac mini y periféricos funciona de maravilla. Lo mismo con la música 16/44 utilizando como transporte mi lector de CD Electrocompaniet EMC1UP. Una combinación muy buena si lo que buscas es un DAC que sea solo DAC y saque lo mejor de tu colección de CD y de música almacenada. |
De acuedo Matt. Yggy se da muy alta rendimeinto, pero no es de altissima calidad en mi juicio. Por ejemplo, a mi me gusta mas qualquiera Lampi Dac. Ademas, mi amigo viene de escuchar (durante una semana como demo) el nuevo Pacific, y me a dicho que es una verdadera bomba! Totalmente mejor que mi "Gloden Gate". Que tristeza para mi. |
Recently purchased the Denafrips Pontus dac at Axpona . I'm still getting to know this piece, however what this dac does with redbook cd's is truly worth the price of admission. After making a couple of changes in digital cables, the music is so there and lifelike it will make you giggle and smile at what you're hearing. Sound stage is impressive and micro detail will give you what everyone wants..hearing new music in old music. I'm hoping to write a review of the Pontus and what it sounds like in my room when I get the time. But for redbook, this one is hard to beat. |
DHT do not run hot in the GG or Pac as they only operate at 5% or rated capacity. the rectifiers do run hot though. They can all be hot swapped. I will as Fred, the US distrib when he will have a demo unit available. Only a few Pac have so far been released in the wild...like about 10. I hear they are now ready to ramp up and do about 5 a week. AL who heard one at home which he borrowed from a pal is trying to figure out which kidney to sell. LoL |
Matt's getting some cool gear in soon...I have a feeling things will pick up quickly after that. Looks like I'll be getting my The Memory Player with DAC in next week or so. Can't wait. I'll be selling the Ayre QX5 most probably, but it's such a GREAT headphone amp that I may need to figure out a way to put it in another room ;)...That's what I love about a DAC that has a streamer built right in. |
Mattnshilp, I'm keeping my Zanden. It's one of thise audio units that's a keeper. Allnic is for sale. I understand your thoughts on the DAVE. But the Blu2 adds much more to the DAVE than DAVE itself. The combo Blu2/DAVE with full upsampling to 764kHz turned on is revelutionary. I'm keeping my Zanden's teddy bears (who can give up their teddys) but the Blu2/DAVE combo makes the teddys jump up and dance. |
Hi all. So sorry for the slow going. Work has been nuts. Anyone in Munich who can give us an update? I really wanna go next year!!! I got a great phone call from the Lampizator importer thanks to our resident Lampy fan; thank you sir!!! A gen 6 Big 7 is en route to me and when he picks up the Big 7 he will bring a Pacific to compare to my Davinci 2. I can’t wait !!! Snopro - no, I don’t know the Terminator. Is it available in the US. Can you provide a website? im still working diligently on the footer/rack project. I’ll do another video shortly to update everyone on that. Thanks for your patience and interest!! |
Snopro, you are not correct on the Forumla vs the Terminator. The Formula was recently updated with new technology and Sarjan was running the original Formula. When Six Moons reviewed the Terminator vs the Formula this was the original Optologic board and not the newer XHD version which dramatically raises the level of the Forumla to nearly the best available changes include:
This update has required significant optimisation of code for the main FPGA of R2R ladder DAC which has improved sound quality. One point that is being ommitted is long term design viability, the Aqua is comptely FPGA implimented and can easily morph into the lastet technolgy from a company that has been in business making award winning dacs for 8 years. We are not denying the buzz on the Terminator, however, there was one review on the Terminator which wasn't so positive, the reviewer liked the dac but not a rave. The T+A Dac 8 DSD especially when fed a DSD 512 signal sounds like most $10k plus dacs, and it costs $4.2k the Dac 8 uses totally different design concepts and isn't as an elaborately constructed piece but boy does it sound good. So yes the Terminator is a very very good dac and it is priced very reasonably, state of the art not quite, great sound for the money probably. The more interesting comparison will be the Davinci 2 Dual Dac vs the Lampy units. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Hi Charles, No I have not heard it yet. I would like to, figured maybe Matt might have heard it. This thread is to long didn’t want to search through all the pages. Audiotroy thanks for pointing that out, still for the money it looks like a very good Dac. I heard the Aqua Formula before the update and thought it sounded really nice, but I really don’t want to send that much on a DAC. I still prefer vinyl better. |
Snopro, listen to a T+A Dac 8 DSD we have found nothing under $10k that can touch it, use a fast Core 7 Computer with Jriver set the program to output 16/44 to DSD 512 and sit back and enjoy. It is freakishly good sounds like a good $10k analog rig. If you are wondering why the little Dac 8 can beat much larger chasis/more elaborate designs, think of this one, T+A is the largest electronics manufacturer in Germany with a full time engineering staff of 14 and a staff of 110 full time employees, they have the resources to develop completely proprietary technology, the DAC 8 DSD uses both novel filter technology as well as all in house DSD technology that is proprietary and does not relay on a chip based solution. The T+A is similar to a Chord Dave but is warmer and a bit more engaging. The Terminator does seem like an excellent piece on paper and I am sure there are people who will dig its presentation, but there are other issues with a tiny unknown company such as driver compatibility, long term reliability as well. We had an earlier Forumla it was good but still lacked some air, the new XHD version is very analog like, one of the more critical guys in audio Mike Lavigne who has a $400k + system was using the Formula before trading it out for a $90k MSB Select Dac, so we know the Formula is ranked way up there with dac's like the Lampy, the Formula is very, very, musical but doesn't dig out the last bit of air and resolution of the Davinci. The Davinci is the best sounding digital we have yet encountered, it has incredible resolution, a huge soundstage, and a very natural midrange. Top that off with a modular design, that can be upgraded and some really outside the box thinking and parts selection, and you have a true challenger to some of the best sounding digital out there, the only downside, very hard to get, and expensive. We didn't want to get one but after hearing one clobber the $25k Meitner Da2 which was a superb dac it was love at first listen. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Joe, I know that you live in the NYC area and very likely have access to hear the T+A DAC 8. If you do get an opportunity to hear this or the Denafrips Terminator please share your listening impressions. When people write comments such as "We have found nothing under 10K that can touch it" this enters the realm of hyperbole, whether intentional or not. Charles |
"So yes the Terminator is a very very good dac and it is priced very reasonably, state of the art not quite, great sound for the money probably." "The Terminator does seem like an excellent piece on paper and I am sure there are people who will dig its presentation, but there are other issues with a tiny unknown company such as driver compatibility, long term reliability as well." Unreal. Speculation in its most insidious form. Audiotroy, until now, I have maintained a "benefit of a doubt" posture while reading through the droves of posts critical to your methods and motives but your statement above suggests a mentality similar to some others here who believe they can judge the sound of a product without actually hearing it by employing some type of mental osmosis. That is forgivable (if extremely annoying) coming from a mere contributor, but not from a dealer soliciting trust from potential customers. Or maybe you are just the type of dealer that feels it necessary to cast unsubstantiated dispersions on brands that you do not sell in order to create an advantage. Either way, you "probably" should avoid this in the future. The Formula is a top-drawer DAC and one I would certainly place on my shortlist of $14k and up DACs. The Six Moons review of the Terminator implied that the reviewer found the sound quality of the two DACs so close that selecting either for one’s system would be a matter of personal preference, which is an amazing outcome for a new product priced at over $9k less than its competitor. It is good that Aqua had the smarts to further improve the Formula. Perhaps it will now show why it costs 3 times the price of the Terminator. As for reliability, it is true that Denafrips is a young company but offers a 3 year transferable warranty and all reports thus far unanimously praise the service and responsiveness received from Alvin at Vinshine Audio. The Aqua products are not without reports of operational issues. In fact, one Terminator buyer posted that he purchased it while his Aqua DAC was away for repair. Your implication regarding concerns about the Teminator’s FPGA section is simply fiction. In fact, the Terminator’s FPGA allows for numerous custom I2S pin configurations to ensure compatibility with the multiple I2S schemes from various manufacturers of streamer/renderer/server products. The Terminator also provides both HDMI and RJ45 I2S inputs. Aqua chose to limit its I2S input functionality to its own proprietary configuration. Lastly. I feel sure that an ultra-credible audiophile like Mike Lavigne would prefer to be left out of your future machinations. Dave |