Jwm - the Memory Player & Davinci2 setup is staggeringly good. I don’t doubt the performance of the Bricasti but I find it bordering on inconceivable that even with Ethernet feeding it, it would equal my current setup.
USB, when properly implemented, is still a viable and exceptional modality.
But as I said, I will arrange to have the Bricasti SE over so I can give it a proper evaluation. I’ll run it usb and Ethernet.
I dont believe in absolute statements like:
- you have not heard the best unless you have heard.....
- if it’s not ___ chip then it can’t be the best
I believe in hearing it and comparing in a familiar system with familiar music. 👍🏻 |
I’m just saying Ethernet is a whole another ball game at least with the Bricasti. |
Gdhal I don’t know that’s why I’d like to hear the MSB in my system. My taste in music is mainly jazz (bebop, west coast, big band). I also love classical and blues (sonny terry and brownie, lightnin hopkins, johnny lee hooker). |
|
I remain to be convinced that there is still meaningful progress to be made in DACs for 16/44. However, some may find the following link on filters interesting: http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2018/01/audiophile-myth-260-detestable-digital.html Hi @willemj I looked over the article. I believe the author is referring to the same type of filters I mentioned a few posts back, which Steve states are merely "apodizing filters" and not the same type/kind of filtering required for good delta-sigma implementation. I could be mistaken though (and if so I have no doubt Steve or Shadorne will let me know :) ) |
For the price the yagdrassil It’s hard to beat from the reviews iam reading from Harley, Steven Stone, YouTube as well, very close to ordering. |
Sorry for a potential source of confusion. I did not mean to suggest that the link to Archimago’s page on filters was support for my scepticism. The basis for that scepticism is on the one hand the excellent measured results of all modern DACs when reproducing 16/44, and my own inability to hear obvious differences even with revealing speakers such as my Quad 2805 electrostats. I admit the listening tests were not very rigourous, but they put me off getting into this much deeper. The next upgrade will probably see a better DAC, however (my preamp with phono input is getting long in the tooth but I need to keep it until I have digitized all my last lp records). I am just not sure whether it should be the one in the Oppo 205, the new DSpeaker X4 DAC/preamp/room eq, or something else again.
|
@willemj You are forgetting that no DAC except the Benchmark DAC2 and 3 properly handle Redbook intersample overs that are common even on high quality CD production like Steely Dan. As it stands, I am aware of only two solutions - 1) Use a Benchmark DAC 2) Use Roon - they have implemented a 3 dB drop in digital signal level which appears to be default setting in order to prevent DACs from clipping all the time with inter sample overs see this https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/tagged/dac3The fact that that not even one other DAC manufacturer corrects this issue is shocking. Clearly most DACs are just thrown together using a chip and the chip user manual and without any real testing or engineering! How else can you explain that nobody else except Roon and Benchmark care about 1129 clipping distortion events on a single high quality audiophile track “Gaslighting Abbie”! |
@gdhal
I did not read Archmago entire blog post but I agree with this “ideal filter is linear phase”! Always has been and always will be!
Archmago states:
“The key here is to remember that within a properly bandwidth limited signal where all the frequencies are below Nyquist, a linear phase FIR filter actually does not create ringing regardless of the impulse response appearance. As I have said in the previous weeks, any decent recording will follow this rule. And if it does, then the ideal filter to use is clearly a linear phase, sharp filter that can reconstruct all the frequencies in the audio data with essentially ideal temporal resolution.”
Different filters on DACs seems to be a popular thing right now - perhaps a mania. It sounds like “more” from a marketing perspective when in fact it is often less. Minimum phase filters for example are just plain WRONG! The MQA style anti-ringing minimum phase filters make no sense. For audio reproduction, it was established more than 30 years ago that linear phase is what you need. Linear phase preserves all the relationships between the multitude of frequencies that make up the sound - use any other type of filter and you ruin the timbre!!
Benchmark of course use Linear Phase only and they disable all of the other fancy distorting filters on the ESS 9028 chip. Furthermore they upsample to 211KHz so that the filter is tricked in to attenuating only around 105.5 KHz and above - way beyond Redbook audio band and therefore a gentle filter at a high corner frequency ensure no audible effect!! Meanwhile shameless marketing departments are offering the filter options on the newer chips to their user as a “feature” even though several of the filters are plain wrong and their implementation leaves a lot to be desired compared to the Benchmark approach (and also an approach used by Steve Audioengr in his own DAC design).
|
Great discussions and lots of reading and at some point will have to do more studying if I decide to try Dacs again for redbook purposes.
Maybe by the time I’m interested, technology would have advanced and price-points would be in the range of the Yiggy, Lampizator or Halo but that might be wishful thinking and glad I’m not in the market for a Dac today... :)
Wig
|
Shadorne I agree this is an issue to be sorted out. From what I understand it mainly applies to popular recordings mostly recently mastered up to the very margin, so it would not occur with the kind of music I mostly listen to (classical and jazz). Am I right about that?
Am I also right that reducing the output of the digital source somewhat at source (ie. in the Chromecast app or in the Equalizer Apo audio player on my computer) cures the problem as well in the same way Roon does?
|
shadorne, Lyngdorf uses ICC (Inter-sample Clipping Correction) to give their TDAI-2170 12 dB headroom for the intersample overs you mention, this and the Benchmark are the only 2 I know of. |
@willemj
You are correct - it will be less of an issue but still an issue. A lot of reissues of classical and jazz are boosted to clipping level too but you are correct they are often less compressed overall.
The CD Homage To Duke by David Grusin is one of the best jazz recordings I have heard and it is recorded at a very low average level with tremendous dynamics (needs to be cranked 3x higher on the volume dial compared too all my other classical and jazz). |
|
@shadorne
Thank you so much for that filter information. May I ask your opinion then - and I realize this is somewhat off topic thread, apologies to the OP - which filter (all names are listed below) to use in the case of an Oppo UDP205, which you know uses the Sabre ESS9038 chip?
The manual provides no detail what-so-ever as to the nature or function of each filter. I'm told "brick wall" is meant for "diagnostics", so I've avoided that. Based on my own listening impressions, I find the default mini phase fast to be preferable. "Apodizing" is the term Steve mentioned, but that was applicable to all of these filters, true? (note there is only one specific filter named "apodizing")
In your previous post to me (01-15-2018 12:00pm), it would seem one of the "linear phase" filters would be your choice, true?
Brick Wall
Corrected Mini Phase Fast
Apodizing Fast
Mini Phase Slow
Mini Phase Fast (default)
Linear Phase Slow
Linear Phase Fast
|
Musical Fidelity M6si > Belden 5T00UP > Golden Ear Triton Reference (pair)
Schiit Yggdrasil > Canare L-4E6S XLR > M6si
Oppo UDP-205 > Belden 1694A (Canare RCAPs) > Yggdrasil
Emotiva ERC-3 > Belden 1800F AES/EBU > Yggdrasil
Samsung SMT-C5320 > Mitsubishi Eska POF > Yggdrasil
The Yggdrasil has a very good S/PDIF receiver, the AK4113. Same one I use. The results should be stellar with any good low-jitter source. Unfortunately, you are using very poor S/PDIF cables. See my cable jitter plots here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154425.0 The DAC in the Oppo is not great, but should sound decent with a low-jitter source using the balanced analog outputs. The Emotiva is inexpensive, using many mediocre op-amps, if its the one I am thinking of. I think the analog section of the Yggy is probably much better, as is the I/V converter and power supply. I don’t think it’s really apples-to-apples to compare Delta-Sigma to R2R with these particular DACs. If you are using Oppo as a transport with 1694A, you are getting a LOT of jitter see these plots: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154408.0
Steve N. Empirical Audio
|
If you are using Oppo as a transport with 1694A, you are getting a LOT of jitter.... Hi Steve. Thank you so much for your feedback. As to the jitter, this is somewhat of re-hash of recent communication between you and I in another thread. I’m not disagreeing in that regard, however, I’m essentially relying on the Yggy to "do its job" and cleans the incoming signal (at least as best that it can and purports to do). Of course it makes sense that to feed any DAC signal which is clean to begin with is preferable/better, and I imagine at some point I’ll investigate that. By this I mean both transport and cable. Also, at the moment I do not optimize the sound potential of the Yggy because I power it off/on each listening session, a cardinal sin by some folks standards. Keep in mind I’m happy and content with the current sound from my system. And while I haven’t personally heard hundreds of systems, as you probably have, I have heard more than a dozen rather high end systems, including one with a pair of 200K pair of Alta Statement tower speakers and comparable gear to go with it. I’m confident in the overall sound quality level of my current system. Can it be improved, sure. I suppose this is one reason why the forum is so valuable; to get ideas and implement where practical. I chimed in on this thread because it was (past tense) my understanding that delta sigma is lossy. To that end, you, Al and Shadorne have educated me to the contrary and I no longer believe that. Of course, I reserve the right to change that belief should some "higher authority" offer into evidence data to the contrary. Given the many posts in this particular thread, it would appear there is no absolute top tier dac for standard redbook, at least from the technology perspective. I get what you, Shadorne, Al and others are stating about the "implementation" of the technology. Nevertheless, in the very end I’d have to think that subjective listening impressions and preferences could prevail. And in my particular case I understand what you’re saying about a unfair comparison of multibit and delta sigma on the basis of my components (because of different overall quality and price points). But at the moment, short of spending more money, I'll have to live with what I have. I can only report my findings and preferences based on what I currently have, so in this context, I prefer multibit to delta sigma. Steve, I remain very appreciative of your kindness and information. |
@gdhal
For highest fidelity and accuracy of Redbook, I would recommend to do this
1) Use Roon with its default 3 dB reduction to eliminate the all too common intersample over clipping errors.
2) Use Roon or another software to upsample the Redbook data to 192KHz and 24 bit
3) Select the Linear Phase Slow filter option of your DAC
This approach will minimize the filter affect on the CD audio band to a negligible level because you have pushed the anti-aliasing filter corner way up to 96KHz which is much farther from the audio band than 22 kHz which is what your DAC will normally use if fed redbook. |
Hi @shadorne Thank you so much for the recommendation(s). In the case of the filter option, I will change to linear phase slow as you suggest (even though I rarely listen to the Oppo directly at this point). As to Roon, I’m not sure why I would need that. One major source of my PCM based music is lossless legs. This is a bit torrent peer-to-peer trading community web site: https://www.shnflac.net/index.php?page=torrents&search=&category=0&active=0If you care to have a look at the source of the actual show/music, just click on a show and note the torrent details. While the precise lineage isn’t always available, the majority of the time it is. For example, gd1970-09-20.sbd.boswell.smith.miller.clugston.flac2496 details are: Source Info: Master Soundboard Reels (borrowed by Peter Kafer) > Will Boswell’s reels @ 7 1/2 ips Transfer Info: Reel (Technics RS1506) > Tascam DA-3000 (DSF 1bit/5.6 MHz) > dBpoweramp 24/96 > Adobe Audition 3.0 > TLH flac2496 I don’t think there is anything I need to do here in the way of upsampling or otherwise altering the source. Am I correct in my thinking, or is there something I could or should be doing to further optimize the quality? *********** By the way, @shadorne and at @audioengr in appreciation of your kindness, I’d like to offer the gift of music. Feel free to pick something (a show) you would like, and I can make it available to you as a direct download (in flac or shn format). http://halr.x10.mx/shows.html (grateful dead) http://halr.x10.mx/other.html (all artists other than grateful dead) The quality (sound and performance) of most shows is pristine :) |
gdhal - This is an awesome gift! My wife says the Hall and Oats concert. Thanks, Steve N. Empirical Audio |
@gdhal
The logic for upsampling Redbook is well documented and justified. Redbook requires a Nyquist filter at 22KHz to prevent aliasing or image noise from 22 to 44 KHz from being included in the analog output signal. Unfortunately a sharp filter at 22 KHz is guaranteed to affect the audible sound due to the proximity of this sharp filter to the audio band. By upsampling you preserve the entire original digital information contained in redbook but you push the Nyquist far up to 96KHz for a 192KHz sample rate. This makes filtering so much easier and entirely benign. Going up to 24 bit also preserves the entire Redbook signal.
The key understanding is that upsampling preserves ALL the original information and so does an increase in bit depth from 16 to 24.
This is very different from down sampling which can alter the original audio (stuff is thrown away) and normally down sampling requires careful processing and filtering to preserve the audio (dithering being a very important processing step in down sampling, as simple truncation is highly distorting)
The key to understand is that upsampling is benign but it makes the job of filtering aliased or ghost frequencies much much more accurate. Every DAC must filter out these “aliasing” artifacts as it is inherent in sampling theory (to accurately capture a signal you need a minimum of two samples per wavelength) - anything that is sampled less than twice will appear as “ghosts” or aliasing artifacts (and these artifacts sit at frequencies above the Nyquist which is half the sample rate frequency). The sharp filters at Nyquist are essential to ensure these “ghosts” do not appear in the reconstructed analog output, however, a sharp filter close to the audible range is less than ideal as it affects the audible range also!
Apart from this sharp near audio band filtering issue due to the low sample rate, CD Redbook is a near perfect audio distribution format - especially when carefully produced. Only recently has analog equipment achieved the equivalent of 21 bit resolution making 16 bits a further limitation of CD redbook. |
@gdhal
Thanks for this awesome gift.
I would like to hear Tower of Power live in 1975.
This was their best line up ever with Lenny Williams on vocals and Chester Thompson on keyboards. They are probably the best band in the world to see or hear live! Sooo excited!!
|
@audioengr and @shadorne
You're most welcome. Give me a day or so and I'll PM you the download links. Alternatively, you can send me an email at the address on my web page (probably not correct etiquette for me to list that here) so I can reply to you directly. |
They are probably the best band in the world to see or hear live! Have you seen or heard the Grateful Dead :) |
@gdhal Never seen the Grateful dead but I watched a movie documentary and I love their live jams. Listen to them on Tidal a lot. Tom Petty does a great live jam called Two Men Talkin’ that seems to be a tribute to Grateful Dead - do you know what is the original Grateful Dead jam this is based on? https://youtu.be/HU9VBQBFQ_w |
Tom Petty does a great live jam called Two Men Talkin’ that seems to be a tribute to Grateful Dead - do you know what is the original Grateful Dead jam this is based on?
https://youtu.be/HU9VBQBFQ_w Of course. While I never heard the Tom Petty song until I listened given the link you provided, I can instantly recognize the music. While completely different lyrically, musically this is the Grateful Dead’s "The Other One". You can hear a Grateful Dead - The Other One, from 9/28/72 (any date would do for sake of this comparison) here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72iVSo6iXz8 |
@shadorne First , I have enjoyed your knowledge you share here on agon . I am curious as to how you gained so much knowledge pertaining to digital audio ? My apologies to the op for this side step . I am just curious as to some of the more knowledgable participants back stories. Thanks, Mike |
The Yggdrasil has a very good S/PDIF receiver, the AK4113. Same one I use. The results should be stellar with any good low-jitter source. Unfortunately, you are using very poor S/PDIF cables. See my cable jitter plots here:http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154425.0 @audioengr Hi Steve. I did have a look at your web page with the measurements of different cables. Nice work on your part. Note that the Belden 1694A I use with RCA is because the Oppo does not have a BNC output option. It does have optical, but I’m not using it (with the Oppo, I am using optical with the cable box). Anyway, what is your opinion of using USB in the following configuration: Gateway NV79 > Belkin e129760-c usb > Yggdrasil Should USB produce better results than the Belden 1694A coax? Should there be improvement if I were to switch the optical from my cable box to the Oppo? (note that according to Schiit, AES/EBU is best to the Yggy, followed by coax) I only have AES/EBU out from my Emotiva. I also recall reading from Georgehifi that some type of glass optical is best, which I’m also not using. |
@gdhal
That would be it “The other one”. Petty played Friend of the Devil live often also. Nearly every musician is a fan of Jerry Garcia - no denying tremendous talent.
@maplegrovemusic
I have college degrees in engineering and physics. Don’t use any of it for work but I remember stuff and read up on audio regularly. I was also in AES Audio Engineering Society for many years. Time Series Analysis used in Geophysics is exactly the same mathematics as digital audio and I took courses just on that! I studied atmospheric physics in depth too but I better stop there... as nobody likes to hear rational discussion on that topic which has become a new cult religion.
|
@gdhal Another advantage of upsampling redbook is on a ladder resistor network DAC or multi-bit DAC. Upsampling with Roon or another software should shift ghosts much higher in frequency - where the ghost frequencies can act a bit like random noise which can actually help linearize the DAC response. Of course the ghosts are ultimately filtered out by the final filter but not until after they have helped improve linearity. The way to think of this is that the high frequencies force the DAC to use a wildly different bank of resistors on nearly every sample or at a minimum with much more variety of network choice than would be used if there was only low frequency CD redbook data - this means individual resistor network non-linearities are converted to uncorrelated noise which is orders of magnitude less audible! Here is the full theory - in fact the author claims this is the primary benefit of upsampling! http://www.mlssa.com/pdf/Upsampling-theory-rev-2.pdf |
Shandorne can you explain then dark energy. |
I bow down to all of you techies. This thread takes so many new directions and all are amazing and informative to say the least. I understand some of what you guys say, but I fully understand what my ears hear. Thanks to all of you for this back and forth. Best thread on any site pertaining to audio that I've ever read/been part of.
Steve, great plots on the cables. Thanks so much. I was out of pocket a lot for the last few months of the year and missed your posts on the upgrade to SM. I haven't been using mine as I have the Ayre QX5 and just connect everything direct.
I'm getting The Memory Player with built in DAC and was wondering if I should use the SM to connect the TV to the internal DAC via BNC? If so, I'd want the upgrade. I didn't realize that you had one. I can call you later if it's better to take it off the board. Just let me know. thanks. Pete
|
@shadorne and @audioengr
Please check your private message box and/or private email for a link to download the music you requested of me.
Enjoy!! |
OP, getting right back to the heart of the topic thread now :)
Regarding the cabling and/or transport that could or do introduce jitter and other artifacts, isn't that a moot point where an "absolute top tier dac for redbook cd is concerned"? And why, because wouldn't the "absolute top tier dac" reconstruct (if needed) and clean the signal?
Consider the Yggy. Not only do they reclock and so on (as I;m sure other DACs do), but they (purportedly) go another extent. Their DACs have an indicator light to let the user know the signal source is "crap", and *even then* they claim to be able to make an improvement. |
Anyway, what is your opinion of using USB in the following configuration:
Gateway NV79 > Belkin e129760-c usb > Yggdrasil
A better USB cable would improve things. The problem is that most USB interfaces built into DACs are not that great. There are a couple of decent ones.
Should USB produce better results than the Belden 1694A coax?
Depends on the USB interface and the S/PDIF interface and associated clocks. There are a lot of variables. I would think that a low jitter source using a good S/PDIF cable to the Yggy would outperform the USB input. My BNC cable has RCA adapters with it, so you can do any combo.
Should there be improvement if I were to switch the optical from my cable box to the Oppo? (note that according to Schiit, AES/EBU is best to the Yggy, followed by coax)
If you use this for TV, movies on Netflix and 2-channel audio, then I would recommend using the IFI S/PDIF iPurifier for $149. You can go optical in and coax out using my Standard BNC cable. This is what I do with my OPPO and my Smart TV to reduce jitter. It supports all formats, including Dolby Digital and DTS. Big difference with TV and movies.
I only have AES/EBU out from my Emotiva. I also recall reading from Georgehifi that some type of glass optical is best, which I’m also not using. I thought the Emotiva was a DAC. If so, then the AES/EBU is an input, not an output. I'm getting confused as to what is driving and what is receiving here.... Glass cables can be very good compared to cheap plastic, but the plastic I use from my Smart TV is even better than glass. From btpa.com: https://btpa.com/?target=search&mode=search&substring=toslink&including=all&brandId=0 Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I studied atmospheric physics in depth too but I better stop there... as nobody likes to hear rational discussion on that topic which has become a new cult religion. I do. People need to be educated on this. Most don't realize that GW is an existential threat to mankind. Weather catastrophes cost the US over $300B in 2017. Worst year ever on record and its only going to get worse. And here we are quibbling about $2B or $18B for a wall. We cannot even fund FEMA anymore. People don't even realize that power plants are only half the problem. Cars and other vehicles are the other half of the problem. Time to by a Tesla. They are fantastic cars!! Steve N. Empirical Audio
|
|
CTsooner wrote: I'm getting The Memory Player with built in DAC and was wondering if I should use the SM to connect the TV to the internal DAC via BNC? If you are only doing 2-channel, the Synchro-Mesh is a great choice. If you want it for HT and have a SS proc., then the IFI S/PDIF iPurifier. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Shadorne can you explain then dark energy.
This is the energy needed to place all of the masses in space relative to each other that is not explained by gravity and space-time. It's an unknown energy. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I thought the Emotiva was a DAC Yes and no. The ERC-3 is a CD player, and does have its own internal DAC (delta sigma). It also has digital output capability which bypasses the internal DAC. I am using the digital AES/EBU output and have it connected to the Yggdrasil AES/EBU input. (which by the way, Moffat claims AES/EBU to Yggy is best) |
Lol - Dark matter? Try Brian May lead guitarist of Queen / he is actually an astrophysicist! I know almost nothing about that. I did read Stephen Hawkings original Black Hole Radiation paper when in high school but never pursued that side of Physics as fascinating as it is - I must have read that in the days when Scientific American was actually Scientific - it has now devoted into populist Cult Cargo science as Feynman would say if he was still alive. |
Hi everyone. Sorry to go off topic to the off topic topic that’s currently the topic, until we get to the main topic. lol. I FINALLY did it!!!! i started my YouTube channel. For anyone who has wanted to see my room and listen to be rattle on about my thoughts, origins, journey and all while staring at my system and listening to it through your speakers, this is your chance! Please subscribe and tell any of your audio friends to check it out and subscribe. They will only be 5-15 minutes, so quick to watch and hopefully riveting!! post comments to ask questions and make suggestions! thanks! https://youtu.be/EGnGh7EUsjY |
Matt, Great video and walkthrough. All the best with your YouTube channel. |
Matt - You are off to a good start. One thing though. The audio level on the YouTube video is a bit low. I have to put my volume slider to the max to hear it well. You definitely have the right kind of diffusors behind the speakers. I would be interested in how these speakers work and what all those drivers are. Also, I would expect more rugs on a hard floor like that. It must be very live. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
post comments to ask questions and make suggestions! Nice room! The audio level on the YouTube video is a bit low. I find the audio level to be fine. The opposite of Steve, meaning I could lower the volume (on a laptop PC with internal speakers) mid way and it's still fine. |
|
Great video. Look forward to seeing and hearing the system. I have to say it was akward watching your feet wiggle throughout the vid.lol |
Sorta did the visible foot wiggle intentionally. I thought it would create a sense of casual welcome, and give a subtle visual cue to connect to my voice.
thanks for the initial comments. The volume seamed ok when I watched it on my phone. But I will be mindful of that.
I have so much to talk about. Please subscribe so I can feel the love. Lol.
ill try to do a few early and quick and then slow down to one a week if I can. |
I like the feet, fwiw. Great to see where you are now auditioning all this gear. Clearly the room is adding or taking little away and letting the equipment shine. Thanks for sharing, add significant value to the overall thread.
Question, did you do fine tuning to add or subtract various acoustic treatments to get the final sound you were looking for? Secondly, what was your source for the various acoustic panels? |
Nice to have a video. would like to learn a bit.Thanks |
