I find the mac mini issue interesting, particularly since Matt's source is a Core Audio Modified Mac Mini with a linear power supply and I assume other modifications/optimizations. Since switching to a Mojo optimized mini with a linear PS, outboard HDD and internal SSD the sound of my system does not seem to lack for tonal density or dynamics. I have not heard the Antipodes units that Steve is talking about but if it were a year ago I might have gone that route for the $4K their mid-level unit costs. One benefit of the mini is that you have a lot of choices about which software to use and how you implement memory play, upsampling, eq, etc.
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,487 responses Add your response
Thanks Charles1dad, It's just like most of all of you, I am kinda tripping on all the money I am spending in this hobby right now, I do not deny your and grannyring's pre-amp is better than most direct to amp set-ups, However, not to get off the subject, buying cables at the level I bought into would be insane!, just one of my interconnects cost $15,950.00 retail, No, I am not that stupid, I paid $7,000.00 used for 1-meter balanced, even at that price, can you imagine the total of tring to keep the same level of performance in cables intact?, man, like I said, Re-morgage the house, who knows, I respect all of you here, I may bite the bullet and take the plunge into an active pre-amp one day, another thing, I only have cds, No need for a pre-amp currently with my set-up, well see charles what I might do in the near future, Happy listening. |
Guido - its very simple. The D/A chip I use allows selection of three digital filters, one tuned for 44.1, one tuned for 96 and one tuned for 192. You can manually select these. The de-emphasis is standard on most DAC's but like the other filters, its automatically selected. On the Overdrive, you can manually select this filter as well. I have found it to be useful on a few older tracks, such as some Led Zeppelin and some Jimi Hendricks. If it sounds harsh and bright, sometimes it is because it has pre-emphasis. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Matt - the volume control is just the nature of the beast. It never goes completely to zero due to the technology used. There are internal jumpers that will get you closer though. I like it set the way it is because I don't want the volume to go up 12dB with only 10 degrees of knob rotation. I don't think its really an issue for you because you are using your preamp anyway. Steve N. |
Hi Matt. First I would like to add my thanks and appreciation for your very interesting and enjoyable thread. FYI. The Meitner MA-1 has no VC so it can only be run direct to amp by using a software-VC in a Sever Software, like A+. Also by using the VC in the Server software you would only be able to control the volume of PCM files and not DSD. Speaking of the Meitner MA-1 (and all EMM/Meitner) they have just announced the release of a free Major Firmware Upgrade. I had the opportunity to get an early release for my MA-1. I can say that the difference was well worth the wait and the improvements in sound are across the board and urge you to try an updated MA-1. Please keep in mind that there will be another Upgrade coming this Fall-Winter. On a side note. As we both have the Veritas Amps I wanted to let you know that I asked Merrill to put the new Red Fuses by Synergistic Research into my Veritas Amps. I highly recommend them for the price vs performance to anyone. They add a refinement to the Veritas, it elevates them, not that they lacked for anything before. It is not hard to hear the added benefits it brings, more then subtle. I must say that this is the first fuse I have heard that it was not hard, if at all, to hear the differences/improvement. |
08-11-14: Mattnshilp 08-11-14: Bill_kYW Matt, here is a link to the VA price list in Euro's (current as at July, 2014); http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CEEQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dptrade.it%2Flistini%2Flistino_vitusaudio.pdf&ei=tA3pU-ijCpa48gWZ8YKABg&usg=AFQjCNEqxRO7wHh4QqYA59FfbJjhTT8gPg&bvm=bv.72676100,d.dGc&cad=rja. The SCD-025 is currently $19,000EUR with VAT which equates to around $25,500USD. The SCD-025 is currently the Signature Series dac. As Hans recently told me, they designed the SCD-025 essentially as a full Signature Series dac with a drive, albeit a heavily modified Phillips Pro 2 LF! And its fully modular architecture also permits the player to be converted to a Signature Series dac (minus drive) if VA release such a product in future, and indeed it has been designed with this possibility in mind. Also should updated modules become available in future, the player can be updated in the field by a competent audio engineer. Btw, the earlier mentioned Vitus RD-100 is an absolutely terrific bargain at $9,500EUR (approx $12,713USD). It has true analogue inputs (no conversion to digital) and Vitus's relay-based volume control. It is also designed with a modular architecture like the Signature Series making it future proof. |
08-11-14: Erikminer That was no typo. This dac was designed for a dedicated and chosen few with true zeal and audio endurance to scale this Mount Everest of digital reproduction. |
Big7 is more like $11K retail, not $22K. My L4 is still burning in after 20Khours…LoL, that is it keeps getting better with age. Seriously, Lampis sound great after just 3 days burn in and keep getting better long after that. I have heard the Big7 3 weeks ago in NYC and am officially jealous. AGear you da man. |
Don't give him any ideas. With the smoke coming out of his ears, I'll give him 2 months now and he will be singing, so relaxing ripping cds ... LOL!!! |
08-11-14: AgearWhat's the rest of your system? |
Fxxxxxx incredible!, Matt, that is the most views I have ever seen, you need to work for a cable brand or something, you know how to talk to folks and keep their interest, Your hired!, congrats matt for a successful thread, I enjoy it, thankyou for your reply, that number is Awsome to say the least, cheers to matt everyone! |
08-12-14: Joecasey As you might expect, its formidable: I have a dedicated listening in my parents basement that is approximately 13x 15 x 7 ft. Walls are cinderblock. Floors are concrete with a single shag rug, a wooden chair, and one naked lightbulb. In addition to my L7, I am running an unmodded Pioneer 535 DVD player as a transport, a highly modded Sansui AU-517 integrated that is the envy of my local audio society, and a pair vintage Pioneer CS-911As slung together with home depot grade zip cord and no-name ICs. I like to crank it to 100 dB and above for dedicated listening late at night, but the neighbors will often call the police. I have been told that you can hear from system from blocks away on a still night. This makes me proud and is honestly why I am in the hobby.... |
"That was no typo. This dac was designed for a dedicated and chosen few with true zeal and audio endurance to scale this Mount Everest of digital reproduction." Love your zeal Agear, 30,000 hrs of breakin? Truly designed for the full time listener or do you have the ability to move at warp speed to the future? Very amusing post man, I LOVE your passion! You MUST be the quintessential audiophile. |
Matt, although it is nowhere near as constructive, I have a thread with 5,500,782 views. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1059180366&openmine&zzTbg&4&5#Tbg |
Apologies all. Work has been crazy. Wed didn't really happen. At least, not the way I wanted it to. I am hoping to get some time tomorrow to eval the DSD-s and it's 128 and 64 setting. And maybe to compare it to my ODSE. Comparing the USB cable and power cords is not going to happen (sorry Alex); I just don't have the time. Nor is a comparison between Audirvana and Amarra, at least not until next week. I'll post tomorrow if I get some listening time. Sorry for the paucity of pertinent posts. |
UPDATE: I finally got some listening time in… I have been running the ODSE via usb off the computer to burn it in. I actually bought an inexpensive CD player with spdif out to burn in the DSD-S simultaneously. So both have been running non-stop since last Wed when I last posted. That's 216 hours additional. The DSD-S had about 468 last I posted. So its now at 684 hours; I would assume its nicely burnt in by now. The ODSE is just warming up with its first steps of 216 hours. I reconnected the DSD-S to the usb and used my cables as always, no change in the rest of the system. For those curious, I have not yet set up any acoustic treatments, so no change their. Consistency is key! I ran it DSD64 and DSD128. Overall, the extra hours clearly made a difference. That quirky imaging shift I mentioned before seams to be gone (that was SO weird) and the DAC really matured in many ways, like leaving a wine out to breath. I will say, definitively, that if I had to keep the DSD-S forever and never be allowed to buy another DAC, I would have no problem with that. It is that good. The overall sonic signature was the same as what I described last time. But the listening position has actually come up a bit more, and the definition of instruments in space and sonically has become more present, more lifelike. DSD64 and 128 were hard to define, and subtle. In essence, the DSD64 created a broader sense of presence and warmth and the DSD128 was like turning the sharpness up on a TV. I preferred the 64 on vocals, jazz, blues and rock music while I liked the 128 when listening to classical. Its a push and change scenario, so you can do it on the fly; which is nice. I popped back and forth to fine tune each song. Cant say more then that really. It was nice to have it, i guess. Although I spent part of each of my listening moments deciding if I liked 64 or 128 better (which distracted me from enjoying the moment). If I was forced to, I would probably leave it on DSD128 most of the time. But its easy enough to switch that its truly switch as desired; there are buttons right on the remote to go from one to the other. The DSD-S has a sense of accuracy and presence that is its sonic signature. Polar opposite of the Lampy. Tube lovers would need to run this guy through a tube pre-amp and amp to "warm" it up. Again, those who prefer the sound of the Meitner. and to a lesser extent the DirectStream should email Alex asap and set up an audition. I think the PS Audio Direct Stream is 70 of the DAC that the DSD-S is. Which is about right if you look at the price… I did listen to hi-res and DSD on the DSD-S and it was wonderful! Truly wonderful! Enough to motivate me to look into it further when music I am looking for is available in that format. But I have nothing to compare it with, and thus leave that evaluation to another. I did swap in his PC at one point, just to see since Alex asked. Again, no huge difference although the base clearly was more defined and was a tad more impactful with my more expensive Zitron PC. The noise floor also dropped noticeably with the Zitron. I have all Shunyata Zitron cables, and the affect is cumulative. So for me to truly veal his PC would take a LOT of time and effort… For what it is, its very good, and VERY flexible, which I liked a lot! I did not listen to his USB - sorry Alex. I listened exclusively this time with the 2.6 Version of Amarra, which I am very familiar with. I tried the Audirvana for Hi-Rez, and with my red book listening list very briefly. The Amarra/Audirvana differences are subtle and not dramatic enough for me to justify changing a software variable during my listening session. I then hooked the ODSE back in and gave it a listen just to see. It's young and immature, but the ODSE magic was there. I assure you all that the DSD-S is an exceptonal DAC, but in my system the ODSE shines. It was that obvious, that quickly. There is some type of synergy between every part of my system, including the room, that makes the gear and accessories I currently have work together to make a whole that is greater then its parts. I am left only to offer a heartfelt thank you to Alex for giving me the opportunity to listen to his wonderful DAC and the chance to tell you all about it. With the right system it is an unequivocal winner! So, what now? I will continue to burn in my ODSE and compare (next Wednesday if I can) the new Amarra 3.0 software and the Audirvana software with the ODSE as I am VERY curious to see if there are any differences. I await a call from John about the Romulus. And I will try to convince someone to send me or lend me a Lampy 7 and an Allnic DAC. No rush on either. In the off time, I will actually listen to music and enjoy my system. I think thats what I am supposed to do…. Steve is working on an upgrade for the ODSE to use the XMOS USB converter chip, which he says makes a big difference. Can't wait to hear that… 'fin |
Matt, thank you for taking the time evaluating the DSD-S! You are absolutely correct when you said: "it is about accuracy and presence". Though I understand that certain coloration would be favorable in some audio systems, this is something you will not find with my designs. I prefer linearity, naturalness and superb extension, while preserving the free-flowing ease of pure analog, and without a sign of digital glare. To make sure this is the case, I am recording from my reference Kuzma vinyl rig and then A-B against the digital using both DSD and PCM formats. Below is a link to a short video clip made by a visitor at the Sofia Expo 2013 using his digital camcorder. It is not a great recording and also MP3 quality, but it may give an idea about my audio system tonal balance: Video clip at Sofia Expo 2013 link Thanks again! Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
Alex, Sounds like my kind of DAC.. I'd like to compare your DAC to my Totaldac rig, but we can't all be as cool as Matt ;) The Totaldac is something else IME. It is extremely raw sounding, meaning whatever and everything that is on the file, is what you get. Explosive dynamics, contrasts from soft to loud are startling, and it fleshes out any performance you throw at it. This DAC also gets the depth and height right. Not only center depth, but far corner depth that goes as far as the recording does. It is as close to the best vinyl rig as I've heard digital get, and really makes the speakers vanish. Perhaps the most non digital sounding DAC? Nice write up also Matt. Tells allot about your system and tastes, and glad you found your home with the ODSE. Steve has been working on that one for a long time, and sounds like it has really blossomed into something special. I also can't help but wonder what a more dynamically capable source would bring to the outcome of these comparisons. This is a very important part of the chain. Cheers! |
Gonna change the subject for a moment since I've got a week'ish until my next report. I need an opinion. Is my stereo going to sound better in my current room: 19'x14.5' x 9' tray ceiling, hardwood floors with thin area rug, no acoustic treatment and no permission to ever really use treatments. Speakers on long wall. Glass doors on both side walls. Or 15'x13'x10' (beamed ceiling - open basement ceiling with exposed support beams). 1 wall is cinder block (a short wall) and 3 are Sheetrock. Thin indoor/outdoor carpet glued to floor. I can do anything I want to anywhere - essentially a dedicated listening room. Can set stereo up any way I want. Thoughts? The 19x14.5 room is much bigger. My speakers are big and I'm worried I'll overwhelm the smaller room, even with treatments. |
That's tough... Pretty small room for your speakers. However, I'd be tempted in trying to use the room with the freedom to do as you chose. Even if it means building a second system, or replacing your large speakers with a good full range monitor or good small 2 1/2 way type floor standing speaker, if a second system is not possible. This will allow you to pull the speakers more into the room vs. being forced to keep them close to the front wall, as well as keeping your listening position away from the back wall. This allows you to set up a more near field type scenario, if you will. When treating the room, take pointers from those that know. GIK Acoustics is really great at this. They have been given any scenario you can think of to get great results. Just MO.. |