Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

Try the Tentation CD Player by EERA $12k.

Agear, I have three dacs presently. One is the stock BMC PureDac, which I use with a music server source. It has a "analog" volume control, which of course, isn't really analogue, but it sounds very good through a line stage with the PureDac set at 59 volume. Second I have an Exemplar eXpo T-105 universal play based on the Oppo 105. It is my only transport, but having a music server results in my seldom playing cds or sacds. Since you can input via USB I do use it as a dac. Finally, I have an Empirical Audio Legacy dac that plays everything in double DSD. I even have some original recordings in double DSD. I suspect this last dac will put me ahead of the wave for a few months! It is nice to not have to use Itunes to organize my music and having to deal with its being dedicated to just playing MP3.

Mattnshilp, I've mentioned the BMC PureDac earlier. You should add it to your list. It is very cheap at $1790 retail. I know of a man who bought one for use in his bedroom system and now uses it in his main system in place of the expensive dCS multiple box dac.

Audioengr, I have used it with your former colleague's Legacy Music Server and with several top rated dacs, whose names I will not give as have three other respected dealers and manufacturers. We all have concluded that the PureDac is exceptional. I now have Williams double DSD dac which I will get working this week. It will probably exceed the PureDac, but that is what it will take. This PCM stuff has passed its prime.

Mattnshilp, I admire your effort, but so much is very fragile with everything these days. Or you comparing the units all in exactly the sale location, with the same wiring and ac plugs, and on the same isolation.

I have found the location of feet under a unit make a big difference, that some units work well with cables that another hates, that some cables, most obviously the High Fidelity cables hate to be moved at all and take a long time to recover.

Long ago, I participated in a great double blind testing of many preamps with many of their designers present and voting. This was well before cables were much in fancy as well as before much was done about isolation. We rated each and went on to the next. At the end the Bozak was the winner??? I borrowed one and took it to my home. It was awful! I lost confidence in even well done double blinds, much less the worthless 30 second, same or different crap.

Mattnshilp, enjoy your father's day and ignore as much of the pressure on you as you can. Incidentally, I hope you are enjoying your listening experiences.

Ctsooner, I have an open mind, but I trust only my ears. Also my only interest at this time is in music servers that play double DSD.

I think that Matt has done what all of us would or should do, namely to listened to the many choices. My only real conviction is that most others, were they to do the same, would not agree about the winner.

I guess you might call me jaded

I think that's an understatement, but there is a reality behind that sentiment. This hobby has a lot of issues. Its not something the chipper fanboys like to look at.

Finally, I have participated in several double blind ratings of components including several 30 second exposures where you were to state whether it was the same or different. After these, I often got two or three to compare as you are.

Very few of us have that frame of reference, and it often lays to waste our self-delusions. I tried to make this point earlier in the thread. A blinded session with the Lampi, ODSE, and Aesthetix Pandora would be most intriguing and disappointing to many.

I've been involved in some fairly amateur recording sessions and have discovered that with current vibration and electrical isolation, many solidstate components sound less musical and more real like what I heard in the studio or theater.

There is also a lot of truth to this. I have experimented with mechanical and electrical isolation, and the fruits can be profound. Both strip away veiling and can get you closer to being a believable auditory illusion. I have many friends in the SS camp who have pushed various grounding schemes to lunatic levels. In this context, tubes just add blur and veiling. I go back and forth on this one. I have a good sonic memory, and when a detail of the soundstage is missing (with tubes), I get irritated. This is one reason why I was waiving the flag for the Aeris early on based largely on Matt's verbiage and the "promise" of that piece with proper grounding schemes in place.

....I'm not really excited by the Lampizator or for that matter tubes in audio

As a future Lampi owner, I am not offended by this. Its a free world (for now). That being said, Tbg should get a 7 in his hands.....

Lissnr, while I'm not really excited by the Lampizator or for that matter tubes in audio, I have always been at a loss to understand why anyone would argue why X is better than Y verbally. This thread is a perfect useless endeavor by a very sincere guy. He has a great opportunity, if he can make a conclusion after comparing multiple dacs.

I don't agree that system synergy is a substantial problem. I have found some instances where some products are better with some systems, but it is just a matter of degree.

I think the best threads are those where people are already decided and share how a product works best for them, such as that for the Lampizator.

Mattnshilp, I am curious about what you will conclude. You needed to understand that i've been in this hobby for 50 years. I'm not the least critical about your initial interest and thoroughness. I didn't dismiss the Lampizator for others, but it is just not my cup of tea.

I certainly have been interested in some components based on a written comment here and elsewhere, but it seldom, if ever, is a shoot out. It usually is based on enthusiasm and my finding more who are enthusiastic also.

The Lampizator is certainly an example. I even spent much time listening to it at CES. It is characteristic of tube units, which have been the vast majority of components I've owned. I've been involved in some fairly amateur recording sessions and have discovered that with current vibration and electrical isolation, many solidstate components sound less musical and more real like what I heard in the studio or theater.

Finally, I have participated in several double blind ratings of components including several 30 second exposures where you were to state whether it was the same or different. After these, I often got two or three to compare as you are.

I guess you might call me jaded, but I have a handful of friends whose opinions I trust.

Finally, I suspect there will be no conscience on which is best.

Matt, I wouldn't pretend to having read most of what is posted here. Can you please tell me what ODSE stands for?

Agear, I wish you guys had listened to the BMC PureDac. At $1790 retail it is the best production dac I've heard. I must use my prototype dac with my present music server as it uses the new JRivers MC 19 and outputs double DSD. It allows me to compare cds in double DSD through the Sabre chip to them in PCM at 44.1/16. It is amazing how poor a choice PCM is. I have tried PCM up to 192/24 versus double DSD and the latter wins hands down.

Since Sabre's best chip includes a separate portion that can do native DSD, if the designer knows how to do so, I think this is the wave of the future.

Audioengr, I only wished that they folk had listened to the BMC. Many of us think it is the best we've heard, but I would certainly concede that William's new server is better.

Several hundred!!! You'd be dead within a month.

Aplhifi, this is all true of the BMC PureDac for $1790.

Aplhifi, perhaps but I'm now using a music server with double DSD output from the dac. The BMC, at least cannot play this.

Wisnon, my servet using JRiver MC19, can output in a large number for formats. Presently everything is output as double DSD in native DSD. Perhaps I misspoke as I had used the BMC only in 192/24 PCM coming from my old server.

Since I'm not really certain whether DSD 128 is PCM or native DSD, I will have to check. Perhaps you know.

Bill_k, as I said I have compared DOP with native DSD, and the native is better. Into the Sabre chip, the DSD goes through an entirely different part of the chip. I did listen to DOP for a long time and enjoyed it but moving the filters out well beyond anything I can hear or sense, it very beneficial. I have demonstrated what 44.1/16 versus double native DSD sounds like to others. It sounds like a different recording with much better microphones and mix.

All of this aside, I still think the BMC PureDac is exceptional. I know another manufacturer who could afford the very best who says he has it in the PureDac.

Bill_k, I asked this of the pro guy who makes my music serverUSB PCM: 16...32bit; 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192, 352.8, 384kHz.

USB DSD: DSD64, DSD128. Is this PCM converted?

He responded, "It is DOP DSD over PCM NOT NATIVE DSD Its the DRIVER is the XMOS driver and XMOS driver that does not support NATIVE DSD."

So, yes it will play DSD128 but this is PCM not native DSD.

I do have the capability, thanks to my dac and JRiver MC19, to play either DSD128 or double native DSD. There is just more detail and sense of realism with the double DSD. Bass is more defined and located. I probably will not use the BMC any longer.

Aplhifi-usa, since I can hear a difference and prefer double DSD to DOP and am told by other pro designers that I should have expected this, I will continue to use double DSD and not use my BMC PureDac, at least in my main system.

Mattnshilp, I'm sorry that my comment on the PureDac degenerated into this highjacking of the thread.

Aplihifi, I do now better understand why I prefer native DSD as I explained to Kana813 above.

I am soon to get a new server with two computers in it. One will only handle the music and the other all the other functions needed. It will also have no switching power supplies and no opamps.

I'm off this thread now.

Kana813, while the tape is long, he does explain well and the guys in the audience asked good questions.

I now understand why I prefer native DSD to DOP. It is the computer being bothered to remove the header that is used to "fool" the computer or latency.

Roxy54, I really don't understand what you are saying, "I am also surprised that a transport was not being used at least as an alternative if not primary, since many don't use them any more." Should this not be either that a transport is being used or that transports are still being used by many?

I also used to greatly favor the SPDif over the USB, even asynchronous. Of course I thought Firewire was better yet, but now I am less offended by USB, especially with much better clocks.

Matt, although it is nowhere near as constructive, I have a thread with 5,500,782 views. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1059180366&openmine&zzTbg&4&5#Tbg

If there is one thing that I learn about all vibration, it is that mass helps a great deal. My present turntable weighs a hundred pounds and needs to be on a rack. It was a beast to get it there, as I was the only one around. At first I was somewhat disappointed with it until I realized that the Ikeda 407 tonearm was not very tightly mounted on the special mounting boards. So rigidity is also very important. But I suppose that with enough weight even rigidity might lose it importance to some degree.

I once had a Final Audio turntable which was solid copper with a 6 inch thick copper platter and substantial solid copper bearing. This assembly weighed 285 pounds. It just sat on the mounting board as did the column for the tone arm. It was thread driven by a substantial motor. There was no isolation at all. And it sounded fantastic when on my slab floor. It was nowhere near as good on a wooden shelf.

Matt, I sat thru many demonstrations at CES where people hearing the demonstration expressed disbelief for what they heard. One guy sat thru another demonstration to be sure that no one changed anything when the Zilplexes were put into place. He didn't buy them, but I heard him tell a guy in the hall to give these things a listen.

Agear, I never really ever thought that I was in a search, but in the early 1970s with my ARC electronics and Infinity Servostatic 1 speakers, I was very happy for over five years, until I learned of the 1As. Since then I have had 24 different speakers and many amps etc. I no longer would ever say I'm done with my system.

I now am listening to only double DSD for digital and although I have an Exemplar eXpo Oppo 105 mod but very seldom use it. I am not going to bother with even universal players because I don't think anything but high definition downloads will be available in the future. Hang onto your cds. My guess is that you will have nothing in your system other than your room in five years.

Agear, yes I did guess wrong it seems, but we will see in five years.

I have several comments. One is that I know you can get the old Tripoint Troys for a very good price, but I recently got a Troy Signature and will tell you that it is far superior, especially with the Troy SE grounding cables. I didn't say, however, that it wasn't more expensive.

Then there is the Tripoint Emperor which is outrageously expensive but to believe the AE show in Hong Kong reports just unbelievable.

I would also recommend that you listen to the BMC PureVox speakers.

With regard to your comment about the Lord willing and the creek don't rise, I'm soon to be 76 so I don't wait for anything.

Mattnshilp, I used to greatly favor Firewire as the best connection and even had a FW to SP Dif converter. Then Apple who owns Firewire totally pulled the rug out from under it and third parties that made converters. I also used to greatly dislike USB even with asynchronous clocking within the dac, but now I have heard many USB connected dacs that sound quite good. I must say that USB cables are greatly improved. The BMC USB cables is the best I've heard.

In my case, the greatest concern is high definition. SP Dif is too limited to PCM and USB is not. That is the end of my interest in SP Dif.

Jon2020, I hate the characterization, 'musical' which really means good sounding but nothing close to real sounding. The Lampizator is musical but of no real interest to me. It doesn't sound real. But in my opinion neither does the Trinity and it is outrageously expensive.

I still say the inexpensive BMC PureDac is the best.

Charles1dad, I agree on both counts. Vocabulary for what we hear is worthless. Audio postings should be musical sounds not words. I also agree that everyone has their own opinions about what they seek. There will never be anything close to a consensus. This is why I can see that Matt is helped by this effort on his part, but that I had very little interest.

Aplhifi-usa, you do know that BMC is a German company and that they have trained all their workers and make most of the parts within the company?

You realize that I'm in Texas and they are in the NYC environment. They are about as far from me as Moscow is from Paris.

I think it is interesting that this started as a cd only dac and now is everything.

Mitch2, I had the Dac1 and had the updated USB modification. I think the PureDac is far better but, of course, needs a preamp for other inputs.

Given that all tubes are sensitive to vibration with some being very sensitive. Users of tube units should be very concerned with vibration control. Probably every tube should be on a separate board with substantial isolation from outside vibrations and dampening of vibrations from the tube itself.

I remember that Tophats glued using Elmers to miniatures helped them greatly. Herbies helped with all tubes that I used them on. But Stillpoints standoffs below the tubes are best.

Audioengr, your old colleague, William Elder, has one up and running presently in double DSD and I have it.

Mattnshilp, I know of many manufacturers and distributors not even going to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest because it is expensive and they sell little. It is too bad as such shows are now about the only way we can get to hear new components with most dealers long gone.

Perhaps we should come to the realization that we are a small minority. You have been the lucky one getting all your dacs in for home demonstrations. It probably has been twenty years since I have even seen an audio dealer much less bought anything from one after hearing a demonstration.

I think all these comments on break in suggest that in the main reviewers are not experiencing components as buyers of them know them. Matt should be congratulated on his thoroughness in gather all these units, but were they component really optimized?

Ctsooner, the Remote program is an app for the iPad. It works with iTunes only, but is very convenient. I was able to use it with a 2009 Mac Mini but not with a 2011 replacement when the first failed. Presently I use my Mac Mini running Windows 7 and JRivers MC19, but no remote program works with it. You need to have your monitor and keyboard and keypad next to you. My dac is a prototype right now but will soon be available. But this all allows me to run everything in double DSD, which is outstanding.

All of this is changing so quickly that it is obsolete the moment you buy it.

Mattnshilp, go to aaudioimports.com for reviews and dealers

I wonder how long it will be before there are no dealers. But it will not just be audio dealers. Maybe Best Buys and Targets can survive as might a few car dealerships, but other than grocery and liquor stores, restaurants, and gas stations, mechanics, and pawn shops will be left.

I think that there is a real need for an e-magazine that has the space to set up multiple systems and to do listening tests, perhaps even double blind but not the usual "same/different " crap from psychology. Just listening tests on a bigger audience moving from one system to another or with and without a device.

I am always surprised that the BMC Arcadias are not mentioned as outstanding. When I seek to hear the best speakers at CES or other shows, I realize that the demonstration rooms have to be made usable very quickly, that electronics is often quite green, that others are demonstrating nearby and disrupting the demonstration. But I am never even close to impressed.

This is further complicated by the lack of demonstrations comparing an amp versus another amp or a speaker versus another. Overall, I can only recall one instance were what I heard at a show totally convinced me that I had to buy a set of speakers. I had to buy the Tidal Contriva Diacera SE. They were ultimately replaced by the Arcadias. I was somewhat impressed by the Arcadias at the RMAF, but they were only prototypes, the room was the usual terrible CES towers room, and it was their bass that most impressed me plus the sound stage they generated.

I have owned every type of speaker from compression drivers to ribbons. I think all are compromises.

Mattnshilp, where do you live. I have a pair of the BMC Arcadia speakers and would be happy to demonstrate them after Sept, 15th. I live in College Station, TX.

Wisnon, I listened for a long time to the Goldmunds and found them very good. But I would never buy them as they leave me cold. They are easy to use, attractive, and have great frequency extension. But they are only good music; one never gets involved with them or feels the emotion of the music or taps ones toes. They are flat out boring. I do often read while listening and love it when the music grabs me and forces me to put down my book. They are perfectly suited for streaming elevator music.

Wisnon, I listened for a long time to the Goldmunds and found them very good. But I would never buy them as they leave me cold. They are easy to use, attractive, and have great frequency extension. But they are only good music; one never gets involved with them or feels the emotion of the music or taps ones toes. They are flat out boring. I do often read while listening and love it when the music grabs me and forces me to put down my book. They are perfectly suited for streaming elevator music.

There were five memorable rooms in their overall sound IMHO at the RMAF: PS Audio and YG, German Physics, Voxativ, and Exemplar Audio, and on the last day, On a Higher Note mezzanine room with the Vivid speakers and the Merging Tech digital.

The PS Audio suite was greatest when playing a cd called French Impressions with Lowell Graham conducting and sitting beside me. Cuts he recommended were exceptional.

The German Physics room initially attracted me as there was a quad DSD recording being demonstrated there. But later I heard even cds sounding exceptional.

Every time I passed the Voxativ suite, the sound attracted me in but usually the crowds there caused me to leave. The same was true of the Exemplar suite once the speakers had settled in. Their speakers were quite dynamic thanks to crossovers with no caps.

Finally, I sought out the Merging Tech MC-8 NADAC dac late on Sunday when there were no crowds there. Without them, it was quite good sounding.

I also spent a long time in the Synergistic Research suite listening to their demonstrations, especially their new power cords. I also got High Fidelity Cables seminar on magnetics in audio.

This was as usual a fun show for me but attendance seemed to be down this year.

Having heard a quad DSD in German Physics room at the RMAF, I cannot imagine why anyone would want to be limited to 44.1.

and attempt to get my attention to the new posts not the first posts.

Branislav, it must be different strokes for different folks. I went to that room and turned around and left.

Branislav, I had a very good RMAF, but attendance seemed down. It is far and away the best show in my opinion.

I have no idea what the last post is on this thread as I am tired of always having to spend time going through all the pages. After page 11, I will not post any longer.