Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

Hi. Don't take my answer as biased because I am a manufacturer but first I am music lover and I get very emotional about ENGAGING sound. Like you I use red book and red book only. I don't care for anything else. My two advice are: for RB I would only use R2R dac chips and ZERO, I mean ZERO op-amps. These two advice will get you where you wanna be. So it could be as simple as TDA1543 one dollar dac chip with one FET transistor or something as radical as PCM1704 with triodes. Just my Polish 2c.

Hi Lampizator,

Great to see you here. I see you mention a 'family member' of Zanden's TDA 1541 double-crown. What is your thinking on that chip and those that use it? Just curious.

Wow, the great and powerful Lampizator has joined our ranks (no disrespect at all implied, I just couldn't pass up the opportunity with my slightly warped sense of humor). Now we have 3 engineer/designers on this thread. How cool is that!!! You are a most welcome addition to our little discussion.

I remember reading on another post that you felt the Big6 was the best of your bunch when it came to Red Book CD. In fact, I was going to pursue a Big7 until I read that. Do you feel that your Big7 is superior in regards to its USB input conversion and ability to unravel the zero's and one's of a Red Book data stream? The Big7 certainly is making a bigger buzz then the Big6 does.

08-26-14: Mattnshilp
I remember reading on another post that you felt the Big6 was the best of your bunch when it came to Red Book CD. In fact, I was going to pursue a Big7 until I read that. Do you feel that your Big7 is superior in regards to its USB input conversion and ability to unravel the zero's and one's of a Red Book data stream? The Big7 certainly is making a bigger buzz then the Big6 does.

Matt, how is this germane to your quest (which I thought was over)? What is the ODSE missing that keeps you up at night dreaming of other digital. My search is over.....:/

How is your new EA dac sounding of late?

Matt, I sat thru many demonstrations at CES where people hearing the demonstration expressed disbelief for what they heard. One guy sat thru another demonstration to be sure that no one changed anything when the Zilplexes were put into place. He didn't buy them, but I heard him tell a guy in the hall to give these things a listen.

I like the pcm 1704 myself, I like better the pcm 1796.

Agear, I never really ever thought that I was in a search, but in the early 1970s with my ARC electronics and Infinity Servostatic 1 speakers, I was very happy for over five years, until I learned of the 1As. Since then I have had 24 different speakers and many amps etc. I no longer would ever say I'm done with my system.

I now am listening to only double DSD for digital and although I have an Exemplar eXpo Oppo 105 mod but very seldom use it. I am not going to bother with even universal players because I don't think anything but high definition downloads will be available in the future. Hang onto your cds. My guess is that you will have nothing in your system other than your room in five years.

Tbg/Norm,

Nice review you wrote on the Zilplexes! Link here:

Zilplex Resonators Review Stereotimes

As far as I know, Franck Tchang has pioneered the acoustic resonators. Link here: Franck's Resonators

Have you auditioned both and what you think about how they compare?

I was introduced to Franck and his amazing resonators many years ago at Clement Perry's listening room. It was a miracle.

Now I have Platinum (front), Special Gold (rear), Silver (sides) and Pro Copper (low front).

Just curious!

Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi

Agear, I never really ever thought that I was in a search, but in the early 1970s with my ARC electronics and Infinity Servostatic 1 speakers, I was very happy for over five years, until I learned of the 1As. Since then I have had 24 different speakers and many amps etc. I no longer would ever say I'm done with my system.

You are quite the restless soul Tbg. The question I posed to Matt was more allegorical in nature.

08-27-14: Tbg
My guess is that you will have nothing in your system other than your room in five years.

Your guess would be incorrect. Wifey wants to move in 2-3 years so I will have to build a new room. As for the equipment, the dac, power conditioner, a Tripoint Troy (pending), and the Moasaic cabling will most likely all be there. I am still deliberating on amplifiers. I do plan on moving up the food chain with Dale's speakers with the prospect of a larger room so the Illuminations may be gone. I also have my eye on the Trenner speakers from Austria for a second system fronted by the Auralic Aries and a Lampizator of some sort. This is all predicated on God granting me the time to do all this.

Question was out of curiosity. You guys are raving about the Big7 and I am curious why the man that designed and builds them choses the Big6 over the Big7 for red book.

Audiophiles are highly insecure by nature...we contantly need validation from resources, publications, friends, etc...and the industry knows this..truth be told...there have been a lot fewer "quantum leap" products than the industry will care to admit...that being said...this is an exciting age...as the improvement of downloads suggests

Matt, Are you going to officially conclude this shoot-out over?, Have you crowned the Empiracal audio ODSE the winner? or do you have some goodies coming down the turn pike, like The Romulas that I question, As to why it never made this dog fight, like I said, There is more than one place to get a Aeshetix pandora signature, Romulas signature, I bet the factory them selfs would indulge in such a shoot out here considering all the exsposure of views that you could tell Aesthetix of, cheers.

Funny you ask, as I have been perseverating about that.

To be honest, I really want to hear the Romulus Sig. I will reach out to Aesthetix this week and see what they say.

I'm also intrigued by the next level Esoteric K-01x coming out soon. But it's price is extravagant compared to the other DAC's I've been hearing.

And although I have been repeatedly warned by some members on this thread, I am nonetheless intrigued by the Ayon CD5s and CD3sx, and would love to hear one.

But, I am thrilled with my ODSE and could happily live with it forever, it's that good. I'm trying to fight my pathologic need to constantly try something else that might be better. Anything that would beat the ODSE will do it by hairs, not buy leagues. I can't honestly imagine it getting much better (with my Mac mini source) then what the ODSE gives me, unless Steve betters his own product (upgrades the ODSE or maybe even a new, higher tier DAC)

The excess funds I had to buy some extra pieces of kit have now been redirected to a very expensive back yard project. And I want to work on a dedicated listening room - which will give me WAY bigger SQ improvements then changing my DAC.

So I guess the short answer is, yes I am done. Long live King ODSE!

If I have the opportunity to audition any other DAC's I will post. I am still aggressively interested in getting a Romulus in to hear. If I do, I will start as I usually do with my typical "UPDATE."

So keep checking the thread. Thanks to all!!!

Feel free to continue on here as the conversation seams to always weave in an interesting direction.

UPDATE: (That was quick. Lol.)

Ok, so I shot out a bunch of emails to see if I can arrange some additional auditions. Emails were sent to companies that I received high volume PM's for DAC's & Transport/DAC's to include in the shoutout.

I have already heard back from two that are interested and checking into product availability.

I'll keep you posted.

Awsome!, Thanks Matt, I understand that the ODSE is it, no problem from me at all, just saying, we should all pitch in one way or the other to keep the shoot out rolling, maybe someone else out there can chime in on some comparison findings between two or more digital products, I have learned more than I can read about in magazines from here, and it's fun to interact with whats going on that you cannot do with a magazine!

Agear, yes I did guess wrong it seems, but we will see in five years.

I have several comments. One is that I know you can get the old Tripoint Troys for a very good price, but I recently got a Troy Signature and will tell you that it is far superior, especially with the Troy SE grounding cables. I didn't say, however, that it wasn't more expensive.

Then there is the Tripoint Emperor which is outrageously expensive but to believe the AE show in Hong Kong reports just unbelievable.

I would also recommend that you listen to the BMC PureVox speakers.

With regard to your comment about the Lord willing and the creek don't rise, I'm soon to be 76 so I don't wait for anything.

08-28-14: Phasecorrect
...there have been a lot fewer "quantum leap" products than the industry will care to admit...

true, true. particularly in the digital domain.

08-28-14: Mattnshilp
.... I want to work on a dedicated listening room - which will give me WAY bigger SQ improvements then changing my DAC.

I think that is wise. When my room was completed, I plopped a Bestbuy grade test system in there, and I was more taken by it versus my silly audiophile grade rig.

Congrats Matt on your spirit of experimentation here. I have been in that mode furiously for over two years and have lost my mojo a little due to fatigue. I did really want to hear your comparison of the tubed entities (ODSE, Lampi, Romulus), but oh well. Either way, you win. Congrats....

08-28-14: Tbg
Agear, yes I did guess wrong it seems, but we will see in five years.

I have several comments. One is that I know you can get the old Tripoint Troys for a very good price, but I recently got a Troy Signature and will tell you that it is far superior, especially with the Troy SE grounding cables. I didn't say, however, that it wasn't more expensive.

Then there is the Tripoint Emperor which is outrageously expensive but to believe the AE show in Hong Kong reports just unbelievable.

The Signature was my goal. I have read all the verbiage about the Emperor. Crazy. I actually spent time with Miguel and the BMC boys at Axpona in Atlanta a few years back. We did an after hours demo, and it was impressive. Speakers were Lansche at the time.

With regard to your comment about the Lord willing and the creek don't rise, I'm soon to be 76 so I don't wait for anything.

I can see that! You are my Dad's age. He retired from the Biochemistry department at the University of Virginia about 7 years ago. He is no audiophile. Its birds, gardening and photography and streamed classical via a Sonos I bought him....

Has anyone heard the Antelope Zodiac Platinum DSD dac? Some are saying this is one of the best out there now.

I have heard about the Antelope but never heard it.

It is supposed to be quite impressive, but I have never heard anything about its voicing. Warm? Analytical? etc….

Maybe I'll email them also. lol.

To all interested tube-o-philes. Especially those that felt I should have tried an external USB converter and tube rolled the Lampy Big 6...

Please check out the "Taking the Lampizator Bug 6 to the next level" thread in this same forum. It is excellent and JaFox did everything with NOS tubes, upgrades/mods, and external USB converters that people wanted me to do. I'm SO glad he did all or this.

I have not listened to one, however, my friend calvinj has this unit and likes it, It is the Resonessence Labs Mirus Dac, canadian made, check that out, won the most recent awards for best sound, and the designer is the creater of the ESS sabre chip!,May be worth looking into, considering the price of admission is under $6,000.00 for this top model they make, Happy listening.

Matt, I read that and I my experience is polar opposite. So no real definitive learning based on this at all. So many variables to sort through that it becomes impossible to draw any universal conclusions. Have to try it yourself to ever know in your system...that is a fact.

Resonessence mirus dac. Sounding good over here. Check it out.

08-30-14: Calvinj
Resonessence mirus dac. Sounding good over here. Check it out.

I have "read" good things too. Made and manufactured in Canada like Exasound. Both seem like solid companies.

Hi Ctsooner, I use to own a Brand new Ayon cd-2s digital player, I had it less than 90 days and the power board blew along with a couple of tubes, the player actually went up in smoke before my eyes!, I sent it back for warranty repair that covered 3 years, my response was that they blamed me and wanted $300.00 for the repair, took me four months of hell demanding a full refund that I eventually got, Not to be a pun here, however, I will never own or buy another Ayon anything!

Keith, it serves you right buying a CD player from a Barbecue store! :D

@melbguy1 well I bought mine from that tube store and it was a huge debacle. No ayon cd2s for me ever again. It went bright and thin quick. The letters on the remote came off and then I got the most arrogant customer service I've ever had in my life. I wouldnt take an ayon product if the paid me to.

UPDATE:
No news on the manufacturer front. No additional responses.

Alex from APL, as he mentioned earlier, has modified his DSD-S DAC based on my findings and is sending it back to me for further evaluation. I am sincerely humbled. His desire to improve upon his product and make it more flexible and satisfying for a larger variety of ears is impressive. I will post when it arrives.

I have also made a new purchase. I had the opportunity to acquire an Esoteric K-01 for a price that was "too good to pass up." Yes, I am aware that Esoteric just announced a new K-01x will be released shortly. But considering the reputation, extreme quality and price level that the K-01 represents, I simply had no choice but to take advantage of the opportunity.

This offers me two new opportunities. Using the K-01 as a CD transport I can now offer opinions on other DAC's through the spdif input running from a well recognized top tier spinner. I do not have an spdif cable and welcome some suggestions for reasonably priced options. (Please don't suggest a $3k cable, cuz I ain't buying it. I'd prefer under $1k to be honest.)

The second opportunity is using the K-01 as a standalone DAC for my Mac Mini. I am actually bristling with curiosity to see how my beloved ODSE compares with a $20,400 retail world class recognized digital Titan. Hang on to your panty hose Steve, cuz I'm cranking up the competition. Lol.

My other option in that same price range, but not quite as good a deal (although I didn't negotiate further because the K-01 became available) was the DCS Puccini/u-clock combo. I was talked out of it by several friends and contributors of this very thread (off thread, of course). I wish I had the $$$ to bring in both and then sell one off.

Sadly, my email to Aesthetix about an audition of the Romulus Sig bounced back as undeliverable. Can anyone PM me their email address?

CTsooner and Audiolabyrynth - I admit, I have been warned. But I have also received PM and emails that the Ayon CD players can be stellar and magical (when not self Imholating).

I'm at the point where I'm uber ahoy with my current ODSE DAC and system. And I know Steve has some upgrades coming that can make it even better. Now with my K-01 I've got a spinner and a top tier DAC to boot.

I'm not honestly looking for more, or better equipment at this time. I need to get my gear into a better room, which will be a slow 6-9 month project that I will keep you updated on. I have to openly admit that I enjoy auditioning the gear and reporting it, it has become a separate part of the enjoyment of this hobby I have developed. I get why reviewers love what they do. I will continue to pursue new DAC's and CD sources and report on them as I can make it happen. Not necessarily to improve upon my own system (which I can't imagine won't happen as a byproduct along the way), but just to have fun and keep this thread going. If anyone can arrange an audition or hook me up with someone who can, please do.

This hobby is incredible. Every time I think I've squeezed as much enjoyment out of it as possible, it gives me something else.

"I'm at the point where I'm uber ahoy with my current ODSE DAC and system. And I know Steve has some upgrades coming that can make it even better. Now with my K-01 I've got a spinner and a top tier DAC to boot. "

That's supposed to be : uber happy. Lol.

And the K-01 comment implied that it was in addition to my already top tier ODSE. Not in replacement of my lovely little ODSE.

I had an Ayon Spirit MKIII for almost 3 years and it worked flawlessly the entire time.. so I can't comment on the CD players.. but the amps seem to be built great.. I also found that anytime I had a question about the amp Ayon USA was very helpful, I have an acquaintance that has a pair of the big Orthos monos that had an issue and Ayon was very helpful getting them repaired.

Matt as far as SPDIF cables go I'd really suggest that you borrow some from the Cable Company.. Lots of good ones under $1K Synergistic, Nordost, Shunyata, Wireworld, Audioquest to name a few.. Also you need to consider if you want to go RCA or AES..

And the other thing you may want to consider is the Mac Mini as a source.. There are a lot of folks that are dropping their Mini's in favor of the Auralic Aries as their streamer.. quite a few CAPS servers and Mac's are getting beat out my the Aries, something to consider..

Matt,

DSD-S will come back to you with its output stage biased with twice higher current compared to what it was before.

Also now it has Zero oversampling for PCM, compared to 8x oversampling earlier.

This made a good difference during experiments using all-solid state amplification here, so I've decided to see if you will hear it as an improvement in your system, or not. :-)

Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi

Erikminer - thank you for spending more of my money. Something I didn't need any help with... Lol.

I will look into the Aurilic. Does it pull files out of my iTunes folder or do I need a separate designated folder?

Service I got from resonessance was top notch. Ayon not so much. I only have experience with one piece and I won't be trying again. However, other stuff might be good. Too many brands to choose from and service is key. Anyway getting back to dacs resonessence invicta was preferred over ps audio in a recent dac shootout between some audio guys here in Texas.

"Sadly, my email to Aesthetix about an audition of the Romulus Sig bounced back as undeliverable. Can anyone PM me their email address?"

Matt,

Aesthetix is distributed by Musical Surroundings,suggest you contact them about a loaner.

Matt,

I celebrate you´re going to try the DACs with a superior transport (Esoteric). My experience taught me that my Esoteric UX-1 plus the Yamamoto YDA-01 DAC beat, by a large margin, a MacBook Pro plus the same Yamamoto. Conclusion: I quit computer audio.

My SPDIF cable is an Antipodes Audio Kokiri.

Regards,

Daniel

Matt - My customers have yet to find any S/PDIF cable at any price that beats my BNC-BNC coax with RCA adapters. Only $250.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Matt, I have read every post of this exciting thread.
Since you have the Overdrive, I highly recommend you speak to Steve Nugent about his 1.5m SPDIF cable with BNC terminations. He has done measurements that demonstrate this length, with BNCs, offers the lowest jitter. His cable is very competitively priced. I recently attended a Nordost cable demonstration for the Los Angeles Audio Society and had these facts independently confirmed by a vice president of national sales. The only other option I would trust is Oyaide BNC to BNC true 75 ohm cable, hard to find, and without Steve's support. Furthermore, in Steve's Audiocircle, you will find jitter measurements of his cable.
I hope you find this helpful.

I use a low fi Sonos connect into an Empirical Audio Pace Car with turboclocks and the Dynamo power supply into a modified (silver fuse, BNC input, Lundahl transformer) Metrum Octave. I wonder what it would take to improve on this setup significantly...Overdrive is really geared to the USB input (SPDIF is not reclocked, I believe). I read with interest in your input regarding the Rowland Aeris DAC. It is similar to Steve's Overdrive in so far as they both use an Analog Devices chip which provides volume control by varying the voltage. They both strive for an analog, non-over sampling DAC-like sound. Matt, could you be so kind as to elaborate on the differences between your old Aeris and your new Overdrive SE?
I want to thank you for creating and more importantly following up on this extremely instructive thread!!, Tom

Hi Matt, ironically, Steve has done that post before the moderator could even put my up on the board!!
I neglected to mention I am using Steve's cable in my setup.
Just for kicks I checked what a Nordost Odin digital cable costs....I find this hard to believe...$10,000 (cough,Gag)

Calvinj, Melbguy1 knows I bought my unit from, usa tubes audio,that is why he said barbecue store just like you bought your Ayon from the same place, LOL!

Matt, congrats on a very fine unit you have, the Esoteric K-01, however, even used, Be prepaired to do hundreds of hours of burn-in with each setting, this unit is not like doing a burn-in and you are done!, each setting has to burn-in, The great news here is nothing you own or your computer audio will compete with the Esoteric K-01 unit, you need to talk to other owners on the Esoteric threads!, they will validate my claims here,pm me about cables, cheers.

It is a barbecue store they damn sure cooked us lol.

I've now hear only one good thing about Ayon and that's the one in this thread. I have been emailed based off my post I assume that others have had the same problems with the Ayon units and that includes and amp. Similar stuf like blown boards. Their QC in Asia seems to lack...if someone is having lettering on a remote or box coming off quickly, that's a problem...If you have constant numbers of boards blowing up in the field, that's serious. I could sound like magic and cost peanuts, but personally, it doesn't matter as I'd be concerned daily. I've been listening to my systems for over 14 hours today alone and I've had no thermal problems or anything else... Matt, thanks again. I'm heading to OK for a couple of football games and hope to get to the Brooklyn show that next week when I'm back. I'm thinking I may go to the show Friday or possibly Sunday. When are others going?

Correct on K-01 breakin.I suggest the following:

Set device to

4X upsampling,

S_dly2 filter,
digital out active,
display dim automatically after 5 or 10 seconds.

Connect K-01 via XLR outs to Criterion... Simultaneously with SPDIF to OV... The two outputs can be broken-in in simultaneously.

Give the newborn a steady diet of high-fiber material for 1K hours.... E.g. Stravinsky Rite of Spring, mixed with a bit of Purist Break-in CD, may be a touch of punk rock for good measure.

Teste taste periodically the results on the two outputs.... Note that for best results on the XLR outs, the digital outputs should be deactivated during critical listening.

After basic break-in, each further filter/codec that you wish to develop to its full potential, requires its own 500 hours. So....

500 on DSD
500 on FIR2 + 2X upsampling

I am not sure if FiR1 and S_dly1 require thir own independent breakin time.

Saluti, G.

If Steve's cable is so, why isn't listed on his website?

Kana, I was also baffled. If you click on the synchromesh reclocker tab, then click options, you will then see "BNC-BNC cable"

Steve, if you are listening out there in cyberspace, it really is kind of confusing. It sure would be user-friendly l if you had a separate button for cable purchase on which to click.

Kana, I was also baffled. If you click on the synchromesh reclocker tab, then click options, you will then see "BNC-BNC cable"

Steve, if you are listening out there in cyberspace, it really is kind of confusing. It sure would be user-friendly l if you had a separate button for cable purchase on which to click.