Putting together a reference level system. My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's. For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling? USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Matt - if your speakers are large, and you are getting sufficient bass, I would stick with the big room.
Treatments can be attractive, such as the graphics covered side absorbers. They are actually art.
1/4 round tube traps are really just an extension of the speakers and look like furniture too. May people that see mine just think it is more speakers or part of the speakers because they are located right next to the speakers.
One thing that is important though is to eliminate as much of the floor bounce and echoes as possible. Thick, large area rugs work and overstuffed chairs in the room will help.
If you are not already using the EQ features of Amarra, then this is a no-brainer. They will make $20K speakers sound and perform like $100K speakers. The EQ is really easy to use (just see my Computer Audio Info webpages). You will need an audio analyzer hardware and software. I often use my iPad with an analyzer app and a Earthworks M30 mic and preamp. The Mic is around $600 and the preamp is $400. This mic is the reference that most professionals use. There is a compensation file included that makes the response of the mic ruler-flat. See the same webpages for links to this.
I suggest a rule for this discussion: No comments whatsoever from Steve or Alex with regard to one another's products. To do so is totally unprofessional.
I second Steve on his recommendation for large/thick/dense area rugs.... Their beneficial effect can be further enhanced by resting them on top of one or more layers of non-skid latex sheets... Yes, I did use a latex non-skid underpad under a thick woolen rug when I had hardwood in the living room.... Rug was better than naked hardwood, and non-skid pad + rug was better than rug alone.
08-16-14: Mattnshilp Gonna change the subject for a moment since I've got a week'ish until my next report.
I need an opinion.
Matt, last year I was faced with a very similar situation. I had a full range floor stander that was flat to the low 20s in a small, square shaped room. It overdrove the room and was less than desirable. Some big speakers do better than others, and you can get by with a near field setup and possibly consider using bags of play sand as a cheap way to manage energy initially. Dale Pitcher turned me onto this. My next room was a multi-use family space with valued ceilings, a wall of glass on one side, stone fireplace, etc. It sounded better simply due to the fact that the speakers had room to breathe (along with the ceiling height). Thus I agree with Steve in sticking with the bigger room.
I too have tried computer-based manipulation of room acoustics (ala Spatial computing from Clayton Shaw of Emerald Physics fame) and while somewhat effective, it did not turn my 35K speakers into 100k speakers. I did not chase it that far though. Another friend had professional grade room correction software, and after going through all the trouble of creating a "ruler flat" measuring room, he bailed as it lacked musicality.
Which unit do you own and what is the rest of your system? Have you considered his server? I too looked at getting one but decided to get a Lampizator instead.
Totaldac Monobloc DAC's and Totaldac Server/Reclocker made for Monobloc DAC's, all DSD Ready
Music network consisting of an Ipad, NAS, and Router feeding server via Ethernet cables, controlled over Wifi. Both NAS and Router powered with Paul Hynes SR5-12 Linear Supplies. Network is isolated as music network with no homerun Ethernet or internet required.
Super tweaked Technics 1200MKV Turn Table with Benz Ebony HS
Joseph Audio Perspective Speakers
NOS Valves VRD Mono Tube Amps and NOS Valves NBS Preamp. Both latest and greatest versions. Transparent is the word.
System powered with 2 dedicated circuits. One circuit using PI Audio UberBuss Conditioner to power the amps, pre, DAC's, and Server/Reclocker. Second circuit for music network (NAS/Router) powered with PI Audio MiniBuss Conditioner.
Analog interconnects and speaker cables are Antipodes Reference
Power cables mix: WyWires Silver Juice II Avanti Audio Allegro PI Audio Mongo TWL 7+
Digital Cables: Antipodes Kokiri AES/EBU Totaldac USB Cable/Filter Empirical Audio 4' BNC to BNC SPDIF Cable
Room is right and ready, tuned with traps, diffusors, panels
That bout covers it. Sounds very real and makes me want to dance every time I listen.
I suggest an even broader rule; no comments from any manufacturer touting his/her own products. That's what ads are for. If people like Audioengineer want to share their technical insights, those are welcome, but mfr/members should not use this forum as a marketplace.
no comments from any manufacturer touting his/her own products.
Why not? I like hearing about products. Sure, you may get a biased opinion if they are the ones that made it, but at the same time, who better to tell about said product than the maker? Also, what's wrong with making a sale or 2 here? This is beneficial to both mfr and Agon, drawing people for potential sales and success. Isn't that the name of the game? Would you make a decision to buy a DAC based solely on an ad?
I do think that there should be some etiquette between the different designers here though, when they are speaking about each others works... It is not right to imply something is this or that.
Nglazer - I disagree. Although Alex did overstep his bounds with a critical comment about Steve's equipment, overall I think what they provided added significantly to the discussion. Having the actual designers/engineers who build the gear is a luxury, not a hinderance. To be honest, I can't find a single comment by Steve that would be construed as negative or critical to or about Alex's equipment. As I requested before, technical commentary about your own equipment is fine, thats it. Steve and Alex both gave me in depth opinions and input off thread.
Agear - I am trying to steer clear of digital manipulation to correct my rooms flaws. I agree with you Agear, the best solution is a better room, not manipulating the signal.
Paul79 - I have no interest in a second system or changing my equipment. I already have a second system at the office (Musical Fidelity DAC and Integrated with Kef speakers). But your suggestion to touch base with GIK Acoustics is excellent and I have already reached out to them. I need a professional to help and they already responded to my first emails. Thank you for a great suggestion.
The best scenario is to move to the basement, give my wife back the office, and get my OWN room. I need to start hinting to the boss a win/win solution...
The best scenario is to move to the basement, give my wife back the office, and get my OWN room. I need to start hinting to the boss a win/win solution...
If you can blow out the basement space a little to add length, that would help your cause....
Totaldac Monobloc DAC's and Totaldac Server/Reclocker made for Monobloc DAC's, all DSD Ready
Music network consisting of an Ipad, NAS, and Router feeding server via Ethernet cables, controlled over Wifi. Both NAS and Router powered with Paul Hynes SR5-12 Linear Supplies. Network is isolated as music network with no homerun Ethernet or internet required.
Super tweaked Technics 1200MKV Turn Table with Benz Ebony HS
Joseph Audio Perspective Speakers
NOS Valves VRD Mono Tube Amps and NOS Valves NBS Preamp. Both latest and greatest versions. Transparent is the word.
System powered with 2 dedicated circuits. One circuit using PI Audio UberBuss Conditioner to power the amps, pre, DAC's, and Server/Reclocker. Second circuit for music network (NAS/Router) powered with PI Audio MiniBuss Conditioner.
Analog interconnects and speaker cables are Antipodes Reference
Power cables mix: WyWires Silver Juice II Avanti Audio Allegro PI Audio Mongo TWL 7+
Digital Cables: Antipodes Kokiri AES/EBU Totaldac USB Cable/Filter Empirical Audio 4' BNC to BNC SPDIF Cable
Room is right and ready, tuned with traps, diffusors, panels
That bout covers it. Sounds very real and makes me want to dance every time I listen.
Nicely done and meticulous. Dropping the Hynes stuff on your NAS and router is a nice idea. Are you the original owner of the monos or did you buy them from Dallasjustice....former flag waiver in chief for Totaldac? I am looking into his USB cable. Vincent Brient is a meticulous and thorough engineer and it seems like some serious product.
Matt - I used to be totally opposed to any EQ in my system, but that was before Amarra. This is so transparent that it can both correct for deficiencies in your speakers as well as reduce the room resonances. Everything gets better. This is the cheapest, most significant upgrade you will ever do. It can transform your system.
I use it at shows whenever possible and at home. Its a bit or work to get it installed and do the tweaking, but not too bad.
The best scenario is to move to the basement, give my wife back the office, and get my OWN room. I need to start hinting to the boss a win/win solution...
I suspect you would like a move to your own room. I found a concrete floor much better for medium to large speakers and the higher ceiling in the basement could also be an advantage. Running wiring should be easier as would running dedicated lines if you haven't already. You will be able to add room treatments as you see fit without affecting domestic serenity. In my case, I found it easier having a room where I did not have to weigh each decision against a component of "how will this affect the family space."
No, straight from France. New with silver faceplates.
The Totaldac USB Cable I have had longer than the Totaldac Monobloc's. I used it previously with a Mac Mini and an Auralic Vega. Totaldac beat Audioquest Diamond and a Revelation Silver handily here. I recommend it highly. It is much more transparent and gives a very solid and highly focused image vs. the other 2. Gets the inner detail right.
Audiolabyrinth - Matt stated in a previous post that he hoped to have some further updates today (Wednesday) depending upon his availability and work load. In the mean time he hoped to be spending some less stressful time just listening to and enjoying his system. I'm sure he'll be back, stay tuned...
AL, just to correct you regarding the 'ping' on Ayon spinners when you press play or change inputs, that 'ping' sound comes from the 6H30 tube filament and is very normal. Ayon do not use any negative feedback or compensators to erase tube noise or hum or something like as most other manufacturers are doing.
Ayon are taking a pure approach. To use negative feedback in the circuit – the sound decreases a lot.
I've been playing with Audirvana and Amarra (most recent update). I'm finding subtle differences. Not enough solid info to report findings yet. I think I will play for a while before posting anything to give both a solid opinion.
I'm working on the room idea a bit more. Trying to determine if I am better putting the speakers on the short (13 foot) wall and leaving the back (behind the couch) open instead of walling it off… Also haven't really broached the idea with the wifey yet. I'm hoping she's so desperate to get me out of the office shell let me go anywhere else…
The ODSE is still burning in. I have been relaxing and just enjoying the music.
I have been kicking around the idea of getting a CD spinner. That's why Audiolabyrinth mentioned the Ayon. I had asked him about them because I know he had a bad experience with them. It's just thinking right now since the room will chew up a bit of funds that are much better spent on my room then a piece of kit I will rarely use.
All for now. Gonna be a slow 2 weeks since my kids just got back from camp and I'm trying to do lots of family time….
Are any of you going to the NYC show in late Sept. Maybe we can all hook up there and listen to some rooms together. I know Merrill will be showing there…
Matt - usually the only shows I have time for are Newport Beach and RMAF in Denver, and sometimes only one of those. NY show is really expensive so hard to justify. I would like to do Montreal some time though.
Alex, Sounds like my kind of DAC.. I'd like to compare your DAC to my Totaldac rig, but we can't all be as cool as Matt ;)
A customer of mine traded-in a TotalDac few months ago (now with a new happy owner in Germany) and I also auditioned the monos at the High-End in Munich this year. In other words, I am well aware of how it sounds, both in my system and at the Munich show system they used.
Matt,
I think I am done showing in the USA for now. The goal here is attending the High-End in Munich Germany as an exhibitor. If you ever have the chance, I am sure you will be thrilled to see it. There were many reviewers and audiophiles from the USA too who I met this year, it was fantastic!
Thanks for the response. What model Totaldac did you hear in your system? There is a substantial difference as you go up the line to the Monobloc DAC's, as I'm sure your well aware.
I am not presently looking for another DAC, as I really can't see how it could get allot better than what I have. But, if you want to send me a DAC to try, and prove me wrong, I'm game. I did notice in Matt's description of your DAC that there are some similarities based on my findings with the Totaldac gear here (speakers replaced with instruments was the kicker), and that peaked my interest and made me somewhat curious as to how it would perform with a more dynamically capable source.
Mattnshilp, I have tried a very full range of room treatments and only found one that works very well and as a plus also is relative unobtrusive. I need to premise this by saying that both of my rooms are largely symmetrical. One is a 18' wide, 25' long, and 11.5' high and the other is tiny 10' wide, 13' long, and 8' high.
In the large room I have electronic isolation, LEDE, Tubetraps, Roomlens, RPG diffusers, acoustic mirrors, Harmonic wall dots, Syn. ARTS, etc. Most improved some problems, but most also had liabilities. Then I read a post by someone here on Audiogon about Zilplexes from the Netherlands. I got a set and initially was disappointed but learned that the one of eleven pieces that went on the ceiling was crucial but I had been unable to reach given the high ceilings there.
When I later used all eleven properly in my small room including the one on the ceiling, I was dumfounded as the room boundaries vanished! I returned them to the large room and managed to reach high enough to install the ceiling unit. Again I was struck by their benefit.
It is hard to understand how eleven 1/2" silver hemispheres sitting on three points on acrylic wall mounts can do what they do, but do they work! I think now that you have to order them directly.
Matt, Here is an interesting development… Esoteric has announced/released new versions of its fabulous K-01 and K-03 players, to be called K-01X and K-03ZX respectively. Apparently they use some trickle-down technologies from the Grandioso multibox flagship players. I absolutely loved the original K-01, with slow Delay 2 filter and 4X upsampling, but I do not know how the K-01X DAC component driven by your MacMini via USB would compare to OD or even Aeris.
Thanks for the heads up Guido! The K-01X looks like a pretty killer player given it is based on the flagaship Grandioso. This new model with DSD USB input would have to be regarded as one of the top single box players in the high end market. The free media player download is a good idea as well.
when does the New Esoteric spinners go on the market?, what kind of money are we talking here?, will there be availabile up-grades for the original K to the 01x and 03zx ?
Keith, you should check details on the page that I have posted above. Seems there is only a partial upgrade path for original K-01 K-03 owners. I am not quite sure of the US MSRP of K-01X and K-03X... Probably K-01 hovering around $20K, but I am guessing.
Did you guys see the triangleArt $129,000.00,, 900 pound turntable that just got on the main sales screen of audiogon?, to many questions on this, one would be, why would anyone need a turntable of this pounds weight or cost?, not trying to change the topic here, really wanted all of you to check it out!
Fwiw...my brother in law was in the same dilemma...and spent a boat load on a premium dac ...suffice to say...it was a marginal improvement at best...but he at least got bragging rights out of it...haha
The cost is really cheap, I mean it is more than my entire system!I suppose I am a guppie in the world of High-End audio, really, I would say that this turn table would be in the customer market of .99.999999% of a percent world wide, can you imagine tring to move this around in your listening room?, you could invite thieves inside of your home and say, if you can pick it up, it's yours, Ha, ha!
08-25-14: Phasecorrect Fwiw...my brother in law was in the same dilemma...and spent a boat load on a premium dac ...suffice to say...it was a marginal improvement at best...but he at least got bragging rights out of it...haha
Phasecorrect, that's funny. What did he get and what did it replace? I too have experienced nominal changes in digital. I believe one of the reasons why this thread has so much traction is the population of philes in digital purgatory is pretty high and everyone is looking for an out. That being said, my Lampizator L7 being fed DSD (and RB for that matter) via an Auralic Aries is a quantum leap forward for moi....stunning.
Hey, my Kuzma is only 140 pounds but be my guest beating it with any digital, cost no object. :-)
Paul,
Sure I understand. Yes, the monos sounded better when I've auditioned them at the Munich show. Better in terms of a cleaner top-end and overall more realistic and natural presentation.
Because of Matt's findings and many other people who are into NOS DACs, I have decided to give you guys an option for zero oversampling (no digital filters) so you get the same type of sound. :-) To my ears, the top gets a tad blurry, but the mids shine. So maybe this little trade-off coloration will be good for some ears and systems. Shoot me off an email if you'd like to schedule DSD-S audition.
And specially for Guido, I am thinking about Zero, 2x, 4x and 8x selectable options with slow and sharp digital filter roll-off characteristics for CD resolution playback, but that will probably happen in a couple of months from now, right on time for a cool audition in the listening room. :-)
Anything else on the wish list? Just let me know. :-)
If there is one thing that I learn about all vibration, it is that mass helps a great deal. My present turntable weighs a hundred pounds and needs to be on a rack. It was a beast to get it there, as I was the only one around. At first I was somewhat disappointed with it until I realized that the Ikeda 407 tonearm was not very tightly mounted on the special mounting boards. So rigidity is also very important. But I suppose that with enough weight even rigidity might lose it importance to some degree.
I once had a Final Audio turntable which was solid copper with a 6 inch thick copper platter and substantial solid copper bearing. This assembly weighed 285 pounds. It just sat on the mounting board as did the column for the tone arm. It was thread driven by a substantial motor. There was no isolation at all. And it sounded fantastic when on my slab floor. It was nowhere near as good on a wooden shelf.
I think for me, this thread has shown me that digital is the most difficult part of my system to understand and then to get right. Like other components, I'll just figure out what I really want to spend and then make decisions based on what the dealers have and plug them into the systems and see what I like best and why. I just redid everything. It's not cheap for me, but it sounds great. Do I want it to sound better? Of course I do. I ended up getting a Music Hall DAC and a balance set of AQ Niagara cables to hook it up. Cabling made the world of difference and I figured that when I upgrade digital, I will keep the cables. I went with a Basis TT with MB Glider cart and a special Cloud 11 platform. It still sounds better to me than any of the top digital I've heard at the stores or in friends systems. I guess in time, I'll spend another 3k to upgrade storage, DAC or media server to make my life easier. I guess I'm still waiting for all this stuff to sort out and finally make it over the top to sound as good as the analog does. JMHO...I'm learning a lot here and thanks.
Digital to me is the hardest to get right versus any other component, but don't think analog is easy. You have the table, arm, cartridge to mate well with each other and then have to set up the cartridge which is no easy feat. You then need a great phono stage. Let me tell you analog aint easy, but the rewards can be great.
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