Jwm, Amperex 7308, but good luck finding good quiet ones. |
Hey Matt, I appreciate what you have done, and have read all as time has passed.
The USB input for any of these DAC's is the factor that determines the final outcome, using your source. This is obvious. I believe all the DAC's you have tried here are fully capable of being transparent. There are all too many DAC's out there that do not get the USB input right. Even DAC's that cost over $10K.
Being that PC or MAC is likely the main source for the masses, I feel you are exposing this shortcoming in these DAC's, and these companies need to get with it. Not that you are, but don't get discouraged by the few posters here that have not made the move to computer audio sources. They also need to get with it IMO.
Another REALLY great DAC with a remarkable USB input is the Auralic Vega. It is not the newest on the block, and the snobs here will have their opinions of that it is not in the same class.... But they really did get the USB input right on this DAC. Not to mention the DAC itself is just wonderful. I've compared this DAC to many DAC's. MANY! I feel that it would compete and likely beat many you have tried here. Says allot about this company being this would be the cheapest one you have yet tried. The only shortcoming with the Vega are the RCA outputs. They are not using the same discrete output that the balanced outputs are, and the difference here is not subtle. You are balanced so no worries. I urge you to try this DAC, just so you can see what is possible with a $3500 DAC done right. |
Hey Matt,
I don't remember reading, and it may very well be in this thread somewhere, but could you list or point me to the rundown of your system for context? I read which amps you have, but perhaps a detailed list including the power delivery setup would be great.
Thanks! |
Alex,
Sounds like my kind of DAC.. I'd like to compare your DAC to my Totaldac rig, but we can't all be as cool as Matt ;)
The Totaldac is something else IME. It is extremely raw sounding, meaning whatever and everything that is on the file, is what you get. Explosive dynamics, contrasts from soft to loud are startling, and it fleshes out any performance you throw at it. This DAC also gets the depth and height right. Not only center depth, but far corner depth that goes as far as the recording does. It is as close to the best vinyl rig as I've heard digital get, and really makes the speakers vanish. Perhaps the most non digital sounding DAC?
Nice write up also Matt. Tells allot about your system and tastes, and glad you found your home with the ODSE. Steve has been working on that one for a long time, and sounds like it has really blossomed into something special.
I also can't help but wonder what a more dynamically capable source would bring to the outcome of these comparisons. This is a very important part of the chain.
Cheers! |
That's tough... Pretty small room for your speakers. However, I'd be tempted in trying to use the room with the freedom to do as you chose. Even if it means building a second system, or replacing your large speakers with a good full range monitor or good small 2 1/2 way type floor standing speaker, if a second system is not possible.
This will allow you to pull the speakers more into the room vs. being forced to keep them close to the front wall, as well as keeping your listening position away from the back wall. This allows you to set up a more near field type scenario, if you will.
When treating the room, take pointers from those that know. GIK Acoustics is really great at this. They have been given any scenario you can think of to get great results.
Just MO.. |
System:
Totaldac Monobloc DAC's and Totaldac Server/Reclocker made for Monobloc DAC's, all DSD Ready
Music network consisting of an Ipad, NAS, and Router feeding server via Ethernet cables, controlled over Wifi. Both NAS and Router powered with Paul Hynes SR5-12 Linear Supplies. Network is isolated as music network with no homerun Ethernet or internet required.
Super tweaked Technics 1200MKV Turn Table with Benz Ebony HS
Joseph Audio Perspective Speakers
NOS Valves VRD Mono Tube Amps and NOS Valves NBS Preamp. Both latest and greatest versions. Transparent is the word.
System powered with 2 dedicated circuits. One circuit using PI Audio UberBuss Conditioner to power the amps, pre, DAC's, and Server/Reclocker.
Second circuit for music network (NAS/Router) powered with PI Audio MiniBuss Conditioner.
Analog interconnects and speaker cables are Antipodes Reference
Power cables mix:
WyWires Silver Juice II
Avanti Audio Allegro
PI Audio Mongo
TWL 7+
Digital Cables:
Antipodes Kokiri AES/EBU
Totaldac USB Cable/Filter
Empirical Audio 4' BNC to BNC SPDIF Cable
Room is right and ready, tuned with traps, diffusors, panels
That bout covers it. Sounds very real and makes me want to dance every time I listen.
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Hey Alex,
Thanks for the response. What model Totaldac did you hear in your system? There is a substantial difference as you go up the line to the Monobloc DAC's, as I'm sure your well aware.
I am not presently looking for another DAC, as I really can't see how it could get allot better than what I have. But, if you want to send me a DAC to try, and prove me wrong, I'm game. I did notice in Matt's description of your DAC that there are some similarities based on my findings with the Totaldac gear here (speakers replaced with instruments was the kicker), and that peaked my interest and made me somewhat curious as to how it would perform with a more dynamically capable source. |
no comments from any manufacturer touting his/her own products. Why not? I like hearing about products. Sure, you may get a biased opinion if they are the ones that made it, but at the same time, who better to tell about said product than the maker? Also, what's wrong with making a sale or 2 here? This is beneficial to both mfr and Agon, drawing people for potential sales and success. Isn't that the name of the game? Would you make a decision to buy a DAC based solely on an ad? I do think that there should be some etiquette between the different designers here though, when they are speaking about each others works... It is not right to imply something is this or that. Another man's opinion. |
Agear:
No, straight from France. New with silver faceplates.
The Totaldac USB Cable I have had longer than the Totaldac Monobloc's. I used it previously with a Mac Mini and an Auralic Vega. Totaldac beat Audioquest Diamond and a Revelation Silver handily here. I recommend it highly. It is much more transparent and gives a very solid and highly focused image vs. the other 2. Gets the inner detail right.
Steve: I can run KT66's here. I'll holler at you. |
Audiolabyrinth:
For 12AX7, the Mullard 10M are damn hard to beat. Very linear, focused, and dimensional.
12AU7, there is only one that will keep up with the 6SN7, and that is the CBS 7318. This was CBS answer to the audio grade Telefunken ECC802S. Ultra rare. I have tried them all, and this tube works well in any 12AU7 circuit. Nothing comes close.
Either of these tubes last a very long time. I have a set of 10M 12AX7 and CBS 7318's in my amps that have been cooking for over 5 years, and they still test like the day I put them in.
I know where some of the 7318's are, but they are pricey. Message me if interested. |
Audiolabyrinth,
If the 5814 will not work in your player, the 12BH7 surely will not. It draws exactly double the heater current that the 12AU7 does.
I seriously doubt that the 5814 will do any harm to your situation. It only draws a fraction more heater current than a normal 12AU7.
To answer, the 10M 12AX7 is far and away my favorite 12AX7. Smokes the Telefunken for sure. They are pricey also though...
Some of the better 5751 tubes will compete sonically, but I have found no better 12AX7 than the 10M Mullard. Very 3D, extended, with deep powerful bass. Also not as overly warm as the typical Mullards.
Another great tube is the 1950's version of the GE Black Plate 5751's. This tube gets damn close to the 10M, but they don't last near as long.
The 7318 is the best 12AU7 I have tried. Beats 12BH7, ECC99, or any other brand or variant you can think of. It is very special, and yes, it is big on tone, just like the 6SN7.
Cheers! |
Ketcham,
For context, what other power conditioning have you tried? Comparisons, and what the Plasmatron does the others don't?
Dang Matt, this thread has went all over the place, but I like it.
Cheers! |
Matt, sticking with class D? A friend with trusted ears has told me that the Mola Mola Kaluga mono's are like nothing he has heard before. I have not yet heard them, but I sure want to.
Cheers! |
Jwm, I sent you a message. I also replied to your previous message. You not see them? |
Alex
Thanks for the link on the QA660. Very nice price! I find no mention of it supporting DSD though... Is this just not updated on their site yet?
Also, I am very interested in your new product, SDT-M. This looks very interesting! Do you have a projected release date? Also curious to your findings in comparison to your other player :) |
Want something that will beat any computer, hands down IMO, either the Totaldac or the Antipodes DX. |
Steve, I am finding that the Ethernet cables are important, the supplies for the router and NAS are important, as well as the hard drive in my setup. FE, SSD are more clear sounding than standard HD's in the NAS. |
I think servers are a better way to go, by far, depending on how they are built and how they run. Yes, less is always going to be more in programs.
The servers are "theoretically" better because they are already optimized for audio, and should be minimized for this. The Totaldac Server is the best that I have tried.
Look for the ones that continually update software, and the companies that can do custom software for your setup even. For example, and in my case, the way the router and NAS communicate with each other and the server. This can all be changed. Chose the LAN transfer rate, fifo settings, etc... This is all very important for the sound.
With the softwares Vincent (Totaldac) has available, I can drastically change the way my system sounds. It is really quite extraordinary, and on the level of entire component changes. |
Steve,
Totaldac Server/Reclocker, which is an ARM based mini computer running RT Lenux I think, with optimized power supply. This feeds the reclocker (in same chassis) with a USB Cable jumper. AES/EBU output to the DAC.
The NAS and Server are on the LAN ports of the router. This is all controlled with MPD software using Mpad App on Ipad. No homerun Ethernet or internet required.
The Ethernet cable going from NAS to Router is less important than the one going from Router to Server IME, but there is still an improvement even here, with the better Ethernet cable.
The better Ethernet cables provide much greater image focus.
Albeit, this is not as great a difference as different USB Cables make on a USB DAC, but the difference is really there.
Routers make a difference also! Belkin seems to be the best and most efficient here. I have Hynes supplies running the NAS and Router (12V) and the difference these made was unbelievable.
I use the Belkin AC1200 DB, and the Qnap HS-210 Dual Bay Fanless NAS with Crucial M550 1tb SSD's
So it all still matters I am finding, at least with this setup, but once dialed in, it has been quite revelatory for the sound here. |
How you guys post so quick? Mine sometimes take over a day to show up...... |
Ya, I hear ya. Hard for me to believe when I started all this, but tuning is necessary to get the best results. I to was of the mind frame that with the packet correction and retry, the digital source would not matter. Not so!!
I will say that I could never get a computer or a Mac to sound like what I have going here. The transparency and focus is really unbelievable. |
Agear, my system is listed in the 8-18-14 post on this thread. |
Aolmrd1241,
While I do agree that it is about the music, I absolutely love music no matter how it is amplified, but I also love the arts that get us there. Hardware, for example, can get you very damn close to the event, if everything is correct.
Nothing wrong with finding the pieces that touch us in all the right spots. There are plenty worse addictions. :) |
Steve,
To shoot another direction.... What AES/EBU Cable(s) do you recommend? Your SPDIF Cable is absolutely da bomb, and wonder if you could share anything about any AES/EBU Cables you may have tried?
Thanks! |
The Totaldac Server is so far beyond any computer source or transport that I have ever tried. You need a WiFi Router, NAS, Ipad, and you are set. Vincent's latest sets of software are insanely good. This should be on your short list, no doubt.
It also streams, so for those that are into this, he has you covered here also. It's only limitation is that it does not do double DSD, DXD. Only up to DSD 64 (currently). |
The Joseph's ended my search. With his infinite slope, he takes full advantage of the metal cones strengths, without their break up/ringing characteristics they have a problem with outside their passband. Speed like an electrostatic with insanely real dynamic contrasting. |
Hey Matt,
I think the Pearl 3 should be added to your audition list. The top cab that houses the midbass/tweeter is rear ported, but this should have very little effect with what you are trying to accomplish. The bass cabs are not rear ported.
These are very special speakers in that they provide a most expansive and very accurate soundstage, yet the artists are presented with energy, and "in the room" at the same time. I have never heard another speaker do both of these things so well. |
Hey Matt,
You likely mentioned this, but why are you having bass issues with a rear ported speaker? IME, it can be quite a useful tool, in that the closer to the front wall, the more low bass energy you have, to a point. Rear ported speakers can get muddy sounding bass if too close to the front wall. Maybe this is your issue?
Are you locked into a speaker position? Seems as though you have some freedom. Your room is just a bit smaller than mine. Mine is 17 1/2ft X 22 1/2ft X 10ft high, and I have had no issues with rear ported speakers here. I just pull them out into the room until I get the right balance of punch and low end, then tune the room accordingly to make it all balanced. Given your room size, I think the 60hz area is likely your biggest problem. Missing some slam? The traps likely helped this allot, but you might need more trapping.
Bass is the number one issue with getting a system to sound right though, so I can understand your frustration.
One thing that I would do in that room, where that drop ceiling/soffit area behind your listening chair is... I would deface the front of it and stuff that with all the insulation I could get in there, then cover the face with a big speaker grill of sorts. This will go a long way into balancing that room more. |
Surprised you found the Pearl 3 bright... It is anything but that IME. Detailed, accurate, transparent, yes. This they are. Put bad in front of them, and you hear it.
I have never been able to assess sound at showrooms or at audio shows. It just doesn't work.
If you've found something that almost works, for a decent price, it will likely be cheaper to fix the room :) Then put any darn speaker you want in there. |
I also have the Mac Mini, with the SR5-18v5 Paul Hynes. SSD, 8g ram, Amarra, Audirvana... It is pretty good, but the Totaldac Server is ALLOT better in every way, most notably in transparency, dynamics, and 3D imaging/sound-staging. I also hear no difference in FLAC, AIFF, WAV, that sort of thing... It all sounds fantastic (Linux for music man!!).
The Totaldac USB Cable is a nice tweak for cleaning up the sound from the Mac Mini also. This is something cheap to try. That little sucker was my gateway drug into a full Totaldac Twelve 4 box front end, which I find to be other worldly digital reproduction. Not cheap, but I am not looking for another DAC...
I recently did a comparison to an $80K analog front end, and the Twelve held its own. Both in same system with the same music. DSD vs. LP. The Totaldac lost out to the ultimate ambient resolution and absolute perfect transparency of the analog rig, but in every other way, the two were comparable. Speed, image focus, tuneful accurate bass, soundstage accuracy, sound of the instruments, dynamic contrasting, etc... |
Agear,
Yes, Totaldac Server is about $5K all in, with DSD. You are not just getting a server though, you get the Reclocker too. The Server is a module added (heavily shielded/modded Cubox Quad Core, with custom power supply on a board) to the Reclocker, and you still have all the inputs of the Reclocker at your disposal.
So, you can get the best from a CD Transport, or whatever other digital source you want to throw on there. |
BTW, I am looking for a nice CD Transport to play with... Redbook only Is just fine with me here.
Any recommendations? Looking for around $2K tops.... Now it is going to go through the reclocker, but this only attenuates jitter, so the digital source still matters. |
The Totaldac Twelve is not cheap to make, no matter where he is located... 600 .01% foil resistors, at $20 a piece retail, it is easy to see where the bulk of the costs are. Add to that SOTA Parts, inputs, outputs, power supplies, cases, boards.... It is a luxury item, no getting around that, and it is built to be. That is why he offers several more affordable DAC's that still beat out anything at their respective prices, IMO. |
Hey Matt,
I think the shortcoming is truly, the Mac Mini setup. I bet the Podes fixes your problem. |
IME, the more resolute the speakers are, the more flaws are revealed.
Taking your complaint, it goes along with my experience with my own speakers (the Joseph's you didn't care for at the store). When music went from a soft to loud sound, or a hot vocal, the speakers poured it all out and revealed I had an issue. That issue was SHOUT.. So in my case, it was that the speakers did not compress under the stress, they allowed the system to tell the truth. I also thought the speakers were to blame, when in fact, they were telling me something needed attention.
I went to the Totaldac Server, and all my problems were solved. I actually got more dynamic range now, that maintains composure instead of farting out, because the server does not fall on its @$$ when the demand is there, like my hotrod Mac Mini did. My system never shouts at me now.
Not saying this is absolute and what you are experiencing, but this did fix my issue.
Hope you get there. Sounds like the Dyn's are everything else you want. |
The DX should come around nicely. It, along with the Totaldac Server, are the only 2 that I have heard where it doesn't matter if you play Flac or WAV.. It all sounds the same. EXCELLENT! This is processing power at its finest. There is a warm up (for a day or so) involved with this stuff, so I believe tomorrow will be a new day with the DX.
You should also try the Antipodes Reference Cabling. That is what I use here, and I haven't beat it yet. Mr Jenkins has some good ears man.
Paul |
At $42K you are in Totaldac Twelve territory. Actually, you can get into the Twelve 4 box cheaper (Mono dac's, reclocker, and server/reclocker). THIS is the one man. Truly, the one. You won't get a demo without a full deposit though, but it may be worth your while. |
Wisnon,
Guessing here, but a Lampi perhaps? It all really depends on what you are after for sure. |
Wisnon,
I get it man. It was just a suggestion, and is obviously a contender, given the caliber of the current pieces under eval. That's ok here, right?? |
This DAC looks VERY interesting to me....
http://aries-cerat.eu/products/digital-processor/kassandra-series |
Steve,
Very cool. So DSD over Dop at the SPDIF--AES/EBU outputs? When will the OR6 be prime time? Cost? Come with Dynamo or this optional as well?
Does your Power Block Galvanic isolate??
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I know a guy that has the new Chord DAVE, and he sold his ultra expensive CAD CAT Server, because he said the DAVE does not care about the quality of the digital source... He couldn't tell the difference between it or a simple MAC Mini using this DAC, where with his previous DAC, the Server mattered big time.
I trust this guys perception, so am very curious about this new DAC!! If this is indeed the case, Chord has made a serious breakthrough that others will need to play catch up on, or try to, because this DAC can be had at a fraction of the price of the most expensive DAC's, and it supposedly sounds better than them all.
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Yes Steve,
I am also very interested in your take on grounding in the digital domain for sure.
I have almost everything in my system AC grounded, including all external power supplies, and noticed a nice improvement in weight and focus AC grounding even my network equipment. I do realize that these are galvanically isolated with the router, but there is still a nice improvement here.
My tube preamp is the only thing that is not AC Grounded, as this creates a ground loop with my mono amps.
Thanks
Paul
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Hey Steve,
Ya, I get that all should be earthed, but my DAC and Preamp will not run signal transformers very well. Neither have a ton of drive, but they sure sound AWESOME. It has 2 short interconnect paths to ground. :) Could I transformer couple the AC Ground of the preamp?
Steve. What is this component exactly?
"From server to USB interface - I use a XMOS interface with galvanic isolation"
Give it up man. Don't bogard every secret! lol Also, is it bit perfect? Pass DSD, High Resolution, etc?
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Thanks Steve. So the Offramp 6 will do USB in and USB out?
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Yep. It is double the price now, so it must be better! ;)
All crap aside, the DAVE has many fans already, and I am very curious what this advanced FPGA approach to DAC’s has to offer.
All of the Chord DAC’s I have heard are pretty good, but they sacrifice in room presence for soundstage accuracy. They are nice, laid back (everything goes on behind the speakers), and polite for the most part. They also don’t have the best slam, dynamics, and clarity. A sonic fingerprint they all seem to have.
From what I have read about the DAVE, this is all taken care of with it, so interesting indeed.
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I am familiar with one single product that is completely immune to the source, and that is the Empirical Audio Synchro Mesh. I have put countless digital sources in front of this product, and they all sound equally good using the Synchro Mesh after each and every one of them.
I am not saying it is the absolute best digital source I have heard, but it gets pretty damn close using anything you want in front of it. That is a stunning achievement in my book.
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FPGA "controlled" fully discrete DAC is where its at. Make all things as good as possible from a simplistic and overkill engineering standpoint, and you only have a couple DAC's to choose from IMO. But you better be ready to get your wallets out.
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You really cannot go wrong with either one of the two in my mind. One is much more reasonably priced though!!!!
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