A not sarcastic question for the power conditioner/upgraded power cord folks

I honestly can’t follow this. 

In my limited experience, power cord from the wall to power conditioner is very important..  I use PS Audio regenerator and experimented with a few power cords. Purist Audio Dominus was the best but I needed it for my amp, Purist Aquila was second best, so I left it there. Custom Power Cord Company Top Gun was third but it is great for source components.

 

While the ultimate answer is always, you have to try it to be sure. But my experience is that power cords are like mini conditioners. So, if the question is, will putting a lower cost one directly to the conditioner, will it act as a limiter... no, probably not. But of course power cords can make a big difference so, upgrading it as well will probably be worth it... when you can. 

Sorry, @soix , I’ll try to be clearer.

My question is if you have some of upgraded power cords and instead of plugging them into the wall you plug them into a conditioner which plugs into the wall via it’s own power cord, does that then downgrade or even negate the value that your upgraded power cords may have added to your system?

The reason I ask is because I just did some further power cord upgrading and I wanted to go straight into the wall with them (I had a couple of other aftermarket power cords that I had been going into a conditioner with) but I found that I couldn’t reach the wall from my CDP or my pre with only two meters. (My OEM corrs were three meters and they did reach the wall.)

It is not a disaster because the solution is that if I move the dedicated circuit outlets up a foot or maybe a foot and a half I can reach them with everything and I guess I’ll probably do that, but they are not in my favorite place to work I was just curious how the guys (and gals?) who are using pricier cords AND conditioners feel about what the cord from the conditioner may do to the whole effect.

 

In my limited experience, power cord from the wall to power conditioner is very important.. I use PS Audio regenerator and experimented with a few power cords. Purist Audio Dominus was the best but I needed it for my amp, Purist Aquila was second best, so I left it there. Custom Power Cord Company Top Gun was third but it is great for source components.

Thanks for the input, @inna , I forgaot to add a couple of things:

1) the cord on my conditioner, as nice as it looks, is hardwired into the conditioner

2) and the conditioner itself is nearly 30 years old and is probably what I have heard affectionately referred to as a glorified strip.

I suppose when the smoke clears I’ll move the outlets, but where I will be working is not my favorite, so I am not sure how soon the smoke will clear.

@ghdprentice , 

 So, if the question is, will putting a lower cost one directly to the conditioner, will it act as a limiter

yes, that was my question!

I like your answer because the older I get the lazier I get and the place where my outlets are and where I would need to move them to is not exactly a piece of cake to work at.

Power cords is always  a fascinating subject, more so than other cables.

Power cords is always  a fascinating subject, more so than other cables.

@inna , I've found it to be at least an as polarizing issue.  Big surprise, I am sure.

@ghdprentice , are you going straight into the wall with your gear?

Power cord  is an extension of power supply not of wall wiring, so…

@immatthewj let me simplify this…

Scenario 1 - everything is plugged into the conditioner. In this case the besr power cord should be on the conditioner. Second best power cord should be on the amplifier. Go up the chain from there.
Scenario 2 - all sources are plugged into power conditioner, amp in the wall. In this case you should be using your best cord on the amplifier and second best on the conditioner.
I both cases it would be preferred to use highest possible quality cords on conditioner and amp. What constitutes a best power cord…the one that makes your amplifier sound its best and the one that makes your source components sound their best. Eventually work up to all power cords of equal quality.
What power conditioner are we talking about here?

I’ll add - if you have dedicated circuits install good quality outlets and go direct sans conditioner. Especially if it’s a 30 year old glorified power strip. That’s how I run my system - direct no power conditioner.

scenario 1 - not always, not in my case. In my case the best power cord goes to integrated tube amp.

scenario 2 - no sure, possibly.

@audphile1 , I guess that at this very moment I have it hooked up with pre and CDP to power conditioner, and amp so it will plug straight to the wall.

I get almost daily emails from PCX and ACX and they sent me one with the XLO Ultra Plus marked way way down from list, so I was like, "Why not," and I ordered it. Then a day later I get an email from them advertising the audience forte f3 power chord for BOGO. I remember what you said about that PC, so for half list I order them and now I have upgraded PCs t for my CDP, pre, and my amp.

But, this is where it is problematic for the time being:

with a 2 meter run my amp is all that I can get straight into the wall. So right now, I am forced to use my glorified strip to plug the pre and cdp into. Problem 2 is that I cannot upgrade the pc to the glorified strip, because although it appears to be a very nice braided pc, it is hardwired in.

As for the conditioner/glorified strip: it is a "Promethethian Audio Products Power Flo" that a dealer in Philthadelphia convinced me back in nineteen ninety and something would transform my system. I cannot honestly say I that thought that heard difference one way or the other and over the years I have mostly not used it, and since I was using stock 3m PCs, length was never an issue. Until a couple of years ago--I started following one of those dedicated circuit threads that were thriving back then, and someone had posted that their opinion was ONLY ONE CIRCUIT for every thing. The rationale was something about "ground loops at the panel" with gear hooked up to more than one circuit. Then MillerCarbon made a rare appearance and concurred. So at that point I thought I’d at least try condensing my three dedicated circuits to one.

So I needed the glorified strip to do that with. And at the time I thought I did hear a slight bit of improvement with all 3 pieces of gear on one circuit. But who knows. I will admit that I am probably subject to confirmation bias, and since I am aware of that, and the mind being a funny thing, who really knows.

Okay--so that was all with the stock 3m cords. Then, going back quite a few months, we all got into that discussion about the Preffair PCs from Amazon. The 2m PCs I bought were not an issue because at the time I was still using the glorified conditioner strip. As I was redoing PCs this afternoon, that’s when I discovered the length issue w/ the 2m PCs.

No biggy, I suppose I’ll move the outlets to where I can make all three reach direct, no conditioner aka strip.

Oh, and getting to how I presently hooked them up: I hooked the XLO to the CDP and the two audiences up to the pre and the amp. For now. How does it sound? I do not know as we were having some stuhranggggeee weather here today--small hail followed by thunder. So I have left everything unplugged for the time being.

 

 

. . . and speaking of strange, I guess after the thunder we got some freezing rain--I just went to throw a bag of garbage out and stepped onto a skating rink.  We don't really get that all too often here.  

Cool about audience cords. I really like them especially for the amp. Don’t recall if I ever tried XLO…don’t think I did…

If you’re handy you can probably upgrade the captive cord in that power strip but I’m not sure it’s worth the effort. You will need to make a cutout and install IEC connector. Not that big of a deal but still work and money dumped into a 30 year old power strip. Alternative would be this Pangea but I personally never tried it. For $250 or $299 with return policy may be worth a shot. You’ll need a 20A cord or an adapter from Amazon to try with your XLO or Forte. 

Earlier in this thread you mentioned moving the dedicated circuits closer to components. I would say that’s probably your best bet and would allow you to run everything direct. 
 

We got snowed in last night as well around 4” of snow topped off by freezing rain. Very slippery. I skated around a bit while walking my dog. 

I played the best place for the best power cord game for a long time.  Not that long ago I upgraded all my power cords to the same one, a Cardas Clear Beyond.  Up until then I had a combination of Clear M, Clear and Clear Beyond cords.  Immediately everything snapped into place, but best of all my wondering and ongoing experimentation was finally over.

My experience was that the cord from the conditioner to the wall was very important...

The common thought is that:

High quality power cords act as "filters"

Consistency of cords, not mixing and matching,  yields the best results

I have found the combination above to be correct and that it both lowers the noise floor and allows for superior imaging.  

@audphile1 , thanks for the link to the Pangea . . . that would be the quickest easiest. I think in that thread I referred to I asked about if there was such a thing as an "audiophile power strip" out there, and it appears that this one would fill that bill. At the time, it was @millercarbon who suggested I break my "Promethean power Flo" back out and use it for a strip to get everything on one circuit. As far as that little unit, it is built like a brick (that was back when a lot of the stuff was built so you could alternatively use it as a weapon) and they did not make it so access to its guts would be easy. I remember back when my buddy and I both bought one (we were hoping that David Lewis Audio would give us a $ break if we both bought at the same time) they were around $600. Which back in the ’90s seemed like a lot to pay for something to plug something else into, but I was like, "Well, if it will transform my system, it’s only money, and Lord knows I have too much of that . . .".

So anyway, I think that the most logical solution is to move the outlets up about a foot and a half or so, and while I am at it, that will give me a chance to reroute the Romex a bit better where it goes down the wall. That was another reason I thought that  turning the breakers to two of the circuits off and only using one circuit for all components was--I didn’t totally understand the logic behind dedicated circuits at the time and I have the Romex running too close together.

Oh, and as far as the XLO power cord, the mark down on it was incredible, so that’s why I pulled the trigger on that one.

Everything is important!!!  Get the best power cable that you can afford to go from your wall socket to your power conditioner.  Just that simple.  Happy listening.

@kennymacc +1, and this for every audio component.

@immatthewj moving the outlets and going direct to wall would be my preference as well. I just installed a second Shunyata SR-Z1 outlet. Got the first one a week ago. Really nice and not very expensive. Consider these when you  work on moving the circuits. Great connection and grip. Solid buy. 

I wonder if the power cord from the wall to the power conditionner , should be a low  guage  one ?  Such as 8 or 10 ?    According , that there are several gears connected to the power conditionner .

I have PS Audio Perfect Wave  AC12 from the wall to the power conditionner

Everything is important!!!  Get the best power cable that you can afford to go from your wall socket to your power conditioner.  Just that simple.

@kennymacc , it would be that simple, except if you read through the thread, the conditioner I am using right now has the power cord hardwired to it.

I wonder if the power cord from the wall to the power conditionner , should be a low  guage  one ?  Such as 8 or 10 ?    According , that there are several gears connected to the power conditionner .

I would think that it should be, @maxwav , and the cord hardwired to my power conditioner looks pretty heavy duty, the three individual wires are braided, but I was also thinking there was more to it than wire gauge.

Here is how I address your question.  Every power cord is the same:  Audio Sensibility Statement.  The one to my PS Audio P20 and the ones to every component that plugs into it are all the same.  I order lengths as needed.  I do not vary or try others since settling on this cord several years ago.  Incidently, I use that same cabling for everything else too, speakers, interconnects, everything.  It makes life simpler.  Plus I do not believe that anyone offers superior wire products.

@immatthewj 

Then perhaps you should consider going with a new power conditioner that's not hardwired, as it'll offer you more flexibility.  Happy listening 

Actually, @kennymacc , after giving thought to this, what I believe that I will wind up doing is moving my outlets and going directly in to the wall from my gear.

@audphile1 , am I mistaken or did I get the impression from a previous thread that you have mixed and matched power cords before?  Do you see that as problematic?

The power cord doesn’t make much difference since it’s all about the gauge size, modern audio equipment handles the power in the entrance of the audio component, audioholics did a video about this topic https://youtu.be/Rgun97VK7y8?si=dX0uHSZFvHhpiFtk

so if a company or a person hears a difference it’s a pseudo effect not a fact

Your opinion is noted.

What are we trying to accomplish here?

I repeat: Be smart here, give this paper to a licensed electrician and let him do the work.

Please know that all items in this paper have been tested over 20+ years to identify definite and significant audible results. Among those people that have done this upgrade, no one has said merely “yes it’s better”; virtually all feedback is disbelief! Most people say “this is the sound I have always wanted in my system! Why isn’t anyone talking about this?”.

The main goal is thicker wall wire to the audio system. This may seem too simple but please read on.

People very often tell me “I have 20-amp dedicated lines” and assume they have done everything they need to do. By US electrical code definitions, a “20-amp dedicated line” will have 12-gauge wire in the wall. So, while you may have a “dedicated line”, 12-gauge wire is absolutely insufficient for high end audio systems. We are recommending 10-gauge or thicker wire here. It is the subject and goal of this paper. The gauge of the wire is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than the fact that the line is “dedicated”.

The subject of this paper works on the theory that the varying musical demands of your amplifier with its very big internal power supply are actually modulating the incoming power line, divorced from the utility (power company) by some amount of resistance (ohms). Even at 10-15 feet from the wall outlet to the breaker panel, 12- or 14-gauge wall wiring has too much resistance for audio purposes. The noise coming from your utility is often lower than you suspect, and the gauge of the wire is far more important because the amplifier itself is modulating the actual line it is plugged into. The amplifier demands current directly up and down moment to moment as determined by the music. This happens at audio frequencies that are of course above and below the 60 cycles from the power company. These demands are impressed on the line wavering the incoming voltage and so the amp is re-ingesting its own noise. It is also making the line dirty for itself AND the preamp, DAC, server, etc. This is possible because the wall wiring back to the breaker panel has some degree of resistance depending on the length of the run and the wire gauge (12-gauge or sometimes even 14-gauge).

Power conditioners and certain power cord designs help because they make an effort to “shunt” this noise (short it out and kill it) and consume the unwanted frequencies. These are dumped as waste heat.

But the other problem with 12-gauge wire is the amplifier starving for current moment to moment with the music. Not only are dynamics reduced, but starving the amplifier power supply causes blur and loss of detail across the audio spectrum especially in the precious mids and highs. A better answer is to reduce the resistance back to the breaker panel making it difficult for the amp to modulate the power at all, and at the same time and importantly, getting maximum moment-to-moment power for the amplifier power supply.

So, there are two benefits to reducing the resistance back to the breaker panel:

1. stop the amp from fluctuating or modulating the wall power,
2. provide the amp with maximum current (amperage) moment to moment as the music is playing providing an extraordinary increase in clarity.

Please Note: The single biggest goal of this paper is to install 10-gauge wiring up to 15-25 ft feet and 8-gauge beyond 25-35 feet, and then 6-gauge wire beyond 35 ft feet. In a recent test I have a detailed report from an audiophile who followed the paper exactly. He installed two 6-gauge lines and three 8 gauge lines from the Eaton CH sub panel at 35 feet. He tested his 200-watt class A/B amplifier into both the 6-gauge and 8-gauge lines. He reported that the 6-gauge line delivered better bass solidity, deeper extension, better dynamics and improved clarity. Everything else in this paper is there to be sure you get the maximum result.

Apply Silver Paste

In this next step, our objective is to further reduce the electrical resistance between the amplifiers and the breaker panel. Here we advise using special silver paste at key connection points. But read the details below, because you don’t want to use the paste on every connection.

These silver (actual Ag, not just color) pastes are called “grease” but are rather thick. Be wary of any others you find that are actually somewhat fluid. I have reports of migration of at least one audiophile silver grease that, because of voltage potential across the Line and Neutral, the paste attempts to physically migrate and close the gap between the hot and the ground. In one local attempt it burned up an outlet. MG Chemicals products are probably the thickest but do be careful in your judgement. It is almost crumbly and less likely to migrate upon inspection years later when used at distances between the poles of 1.5” or more. It does not seem to oxidize over time. There are reports of “audiophile” silver pastes that do oxidize and so the oxidized silver becomes worse than not applying silver at all.

1. If you are building power cords DO NOT try to use this stuff on plugs on each end of power cords. Again, the silver paste can migrate because of the voltages if the poles are too close together as they would be on a power cord plug.
2. Used on each side a wall receptacle is probably OK. Do so at your own risk.
3. The silver paste is OK in the breaker panel on the breakers and wire to the breakers.
4. DO NOT use the silver paste on interconnects, or speaker cables or any signal cables. While putting it on signal cables seems like a good thing, the paste is impossible to control and it smears around in use because it never really dries. The result is a partial or complete short across signal hot and ground. I added this comment based on one audiophile who tried it on his interconnects, got no sound in one channel, weak distorted sound in the other, and spent hours washing his RCA plugs and cleaning his input/output jacks on his components. I don’t t think it can be completely cleaned out and he should have replaced the jacks and plugs. In other words just don’t do it.
5. It is better to clean your interconnects and jacks once or twice per year (highly recommended). You can Google “interconnect cleaning” and “XLR input cleaning” and see procedures and chemicals to deoxidize the jacks on your equipment. Consult your equipment manufacturer for their recommendations also.

 

Main Point:

You will use the conductive paste at every AC power connection that is made starting by removing the breakers and applying it to the inside of the clip on the back of the breaker. No need to apply it to the busbar connection especially since these are always electrically live and fatally dangerous!! The breaker clip will transfer the paste to the live busbar.

1. I recommend new breakers if they are older than one year or so (they are cheap compared to the cost of your audio system). If you get the original equipment circuit breakers (like Square D, Siemens, etc.), from an electrical supply house (not Home Depot or Lowes), you will likely get silver-tungsten contacts inside the breaker. Cheap off-shore replacement breakers may have copper contacts which have higher resistance and will oxidize over time raising the resistance further defeating what we are trying to do here. Research with your local electrical supply for your brand of breaker panel and ask them to look up the breaker contact material to confirm it is silver or silver tungsten.
2. You will also use the silver paste on the wires where they enter into the screw terminals both at the breakers and the wall outlets. A thin film is all that is needed on all these connections and the silver actually performs better as a thin film. (more…is NOT better here).
3. The silver paste tends to get on the fingers and then everywhere else so be sure to clean up with Goo Gone or some such solvent since the silver paste is like liquid wire. It can be a finger- shock hazard if you are sloppy with it, so be sure to clean up any excess or smeared film with a solvent like Goo Gone EVEN IF YOU CAN’T SEE IT!
4. Note: Your electrician will have a non-corrosion paste that he always uses to preserve and prevent oxidation on an aluminum or copper connecFon but does not reduce the resistance of the connection anywhere near as well as the silver paste. The non-corrosion paste’s intent is to slow oxidation over time and nothing more. The electrician will say “oh I already have some stuff I use”. Let’s be very clear here: The electrician’s paste is not suitable for our purposes. The silver or a silver-loaded copper compounds are the only choices.

Now back to AC wiring!

Wire Gauge

I recommend at least two 20-amp 120 volt circuits run on 10 gauge wire up to 25 feet, 8 gauge wire from 25 to 35 feet, and 6 gauge wire from 35 to 60 feet. 6 gauge or 8-gauge may require a jump down to 10 gauge in a junction box somewhere near the wall outlets for the wire to fit into most wall outlets. Audiophile wall outlets may accept a bigger gauge. I have a report that Furutech outlets can accept 8 gauge and maybe 6 gauge. Please check other brands to confirm.

Breakers

Remember that 30-amp breakers do not pass any more power or have lower resistance. They simply kick off at 30 amps instead of at 20 amps. A 30-amp breaker could actually be more dangerous possibly causing a fire in the event of a true short circuit (very rare but that’s what the breakers protect against).

Install:

1. one dedicated circuit for all front-end equipment, and
2. one circuit for each amplifier and
3. one circuit for one (or two) subwoofers. (subwoofers are even worse than amplifiers at making the power lines dirty).

Try to find good outlets (something like the PS Audio Power Port, or Furutech, or Wattgate models. Generic commercial grade outlets are not a good substitute. Low- and medium-priced audiophile outlets are a good investment since they are heavier copper, better plated and really grip the blades of your power cord plug.

Sub Panels

If the distance between the wall outlets and the breaker panel is very far, like 60- 75 feet, one might consider a subpanel close to the listening room. A subpanel is a must at 80R-150R. I recommend the Eaton CH series panels using copper buss bars with silver plating. The internal power paths are highly conductive, again, with less resistance. In keeping with the purpose of the paper, ask the electrician to uprate the wire gauge between the main panel and the sub panel. 2-gauge should be minimum with 1-gauge or even 2/0-gauge being considered above 80 feet. Again, let’s remind the electrician we are not wiring for high current draw, we are wiring for the lowest possible resistance. The electrician will better understand our goals if we say the performance of our equipment will dramatically improve if we have the lowest possible resistance back to the breaker panel, even if we are not pull much continuous current.

Grounding

Also consider 2 or 3 ground rods 6 -10 feet apart fed together running back to your main breaker panel. Try to put the ground rods into the dampest place in the soil if possible. With some modern codes, the house ground to the re-bar that is embedded in the concrete foundation and concrete floors of the house. Your electrician will know the best procedures in your area.

AC Phase

For 120-volt circuits: MAKE SURE ALL EXISTING AND NEW CIRCUITS THAT YOU USE ARE ON THE SAME ELECTRICAL PHASE. I have had several direct experiences with an audio system connected on the opposite house electrical phases and the dual 120 volt feed from the electrical grid seems to make a good antenna to pick up RF. Connecting your system to only one electrical phase seems to prevent any RF issues that can damage equipment in areas with high RF. (No… you have no way to know if you are in a microwave path, or TV/radio transmission path, so just do it!) Usually, every other breaker in the stack is the same phase. In other words, starting at the top (first) breaker in the left column you will have “A” phase. The next breaker down (second) will be “B” phase, and then the next (third) will be “A” phase again, etc. So the two (or more) dedicated lines should be spaced every other breaker apart to be on the same phase. Another way to say this: On the left hand side of the panel, all of the odd numbered breakers on one side will be on one of the phases, all of the even numbered breakers will be on the other phase. Then on the right side of the panel the opposite may be true meaning the first breaker on the leR is on the same phase as the second breaker on the right, etc. On either side every other breaker will be on the same phase. Some newer panels may have one phase all on the left, and the other phase all on the right. If you don’t know and don’t know how to test, have an electrician help or do the work.

Warning!! Fatal voltages are exposed here. Decide if you are competent with an AC voltmeter and if you will not be dangerous to yourself and accept the sole responsibility for this decision.

If you have experience with an AC voltmeter measuring wall power and you feel you are competent then you can test between any two wall outlets to prove they are on the same phase by testing for AC voltage across the two shorter slots in the respective wall outlets (the longer slot is always the neutral, the shorter slot is always the “hot” or “line”). Measuring between the two outlets probing their respective “hot” (short slots) you should have a reading near zero volts and maybe floating around several millivolts (mv). Use an extension cord on one outlet to get near the other outlet to let your meter leads reach if necessary. Remember, the long slot is neutral, the short slots are hot or “line”. If your reading is 220-240 volts between the two short slots on the two outlets then the two outlets are on separate circuits on the opposite phases and should be corrected. This is done by moving one of the breakers to another position in the breaker panel so both outlets are now on the same phase. If you are not competent with a voltmeter, ask you electrician to determine the phase of your wall outlets. You accept responsibility to decide to do this test and know it can be lethal. Get your electrician to do it!

Tight Connections

Also, it is a good idea to ask your electrician to go around the breaker panel when he is done and tighten all of the set-screws that clamp the wires. This is especially important on the heaviest cables that feed the panel since these large feed cables are aluminum so tightening the large screw even a liNle bit refreshes the metal contact to the aluminum wire. These screws will be LIVE and lethal! They cannot be turned off so ask the electrician if he has the proper voltage-rated insulated tools to do this and if he is comfortable doing so. It is his decision and responsibility. Electricians will often do this any time they service a panel. Caution!! Lethal voltages are exposed here. DO NOT pick up the tools you own with the plastic or rubber grips and think you can do this yourself. Your tools are not voltage rated for this procedure, and it is fatally dangerous if you make a mistake, so DO NOT be tempted. Let an experienced, qualified, licensed, insured, electrician do this.

Incoming Noise

I use a meter made by Greenwave at $135 (https://greenwavefilters.com/product/emi-meter/) to get some scale of the electrical noise coming from the utility. Electrical noise can vary WIDELY across the country, affected by cell towers, radio and TVs stations etc. It can be very high frequency not only conducted on the copper wire but also following the outside of the wire like an antenna. The only way to know if electrical noise is present is to measure it. Use the meter during the day, evening, and late evening. Especially if your system sounds different in the evening. Use the meter direct into the wall outlets of your system with nothing plugged into any of the outlets. If audio gear is plugged in, then the reading will be lower because the audio gear is absorbing the noise. The reading that way will be meaningless. The noise is expressed in millivolts (mv). The mv reading is low below 50-100 mv, high around 400-500 mv and very high above 1000 mv up to 2000 mv which is the top range of the meter. I strongly suggest you use your ears to judge any power treatment. The meter is a guide. I advise not to chase small increments like 50mv compared to 40mv as you may not hear anything. Look for bigger changes and be sure to use your ears. You can measure power conditioners with nothing plugged into them but be aware certain components in some conditioners can show higher readings because of reflections between the power conditioner and the meter. The higher measurement from the conditioner may not be of concern. Again, use your ears with and without the conditioner. If the sound is better with the conditioner, trust that result.

Line Conditioners

I don’t generally recommend line conditioners for amplifiers when the system is done as described above. It is generally better to go straight into the wall. Again, use the Greenwave meter as additional information here. If you do use a line conditioner on an amp look for a claim of NO CURRENT or WATTAGE LIMITS so that it is likely a straight-through design with any filtering elements ACROSS the line. If it does have a wattage or current rating then it would indicate some sort of treatment in SERIES with the line which is almost never good for amplifiers and may even choke off lower power gear like front ends depending on the design of the condiFoner. Some conditioners claim to have no current limiting. I suspect a claim of no current restriction is a relative claim meaning the current restriction is very small and it could be true for our purposes. Let me say here to use your ears in all cases. I do recommend conditioning for all front-end equipment. For front ends which tend to draw little power compared to the amp, you might pursue a well-designed conditioner but be observant about power limiting. (consider all of the foregoing as theory, and in the end use your ears).

If you must run only one wall power line, plug the amp direct into the wall and then the front end into your line conditioner. It is infinitely better to install at least two lines (which must be on the same phase) because the amplifier will modulate the wall power fluctuating by the demands of the music and actually make noise on an otherwise quiet wall power line. Plug the amp directly into one and a line conditioner into the other which you will then plug your front end into. We have experience with the Audioquest 5000. I found the “high current” outlet best for DACs. I have less experience connecting things like servers to the dielectric outlets 5 and 6.

Our experience is to connect the DAC into the “high current” outlets intended for amplifiers. It gave us the best balance between transient current delivery and noise filtering. For the DAC, the other outlets seemed to restrict the current too much making the sound lackluster. Again, I often prefer the amps straight in the wall and do try line conditioners on the front end judging by ear. In any case, try to audition line conditioners before you buy. The AQ Niagaras are not the only choice; we have not tried others so do compare other brands.

Conditioning is probably most important for DACs and digital sources because of the digital clocks running at “insane” accuracies. Bad power can easily make the DAC clock jitter worse in addition to adding ground noise to the analog circuitry and signal cable connections.

240 Volt Connections in a 120 Volt Country

Some high-end amps can be switched over and run on 240 volts and I recommend it. If you absolutely cannot change your wall wiring to a heavier gauge, and your amp allows it, you may be able to use the existing wiring to convert to 240 volt then using a 240 volt outlet and a 240 volt plug on your power cord. Ask your electrician if you can convert an existing 120 volt line to 240 volt. Be sure the amp has the feature that enables it to be changed to 240 volts and be sure the changeover is done correctly. Transformer primaries and the transformer core will run slightly more efficiently yielding lower impedance so the internal DC amp supply might appear slightly “stiffer” to the amp’s audio circuits (always a good thing). Because the amp is now running at twice the voltage, the amperage (current) the wall wiring “looks” twice as thick to the amp as it does at 120 volt (ohms law). Now the amp will make even less audio noise on the line and it then rejects its own line noise better as per the goal of this paper. The 240 volt outlet can be a standard 15 amp (240 volt rated), with 10 ga. wire up to 60 feet then 8 gauge beyond that.

For the 240-volt lines, the electrician may, or may not know about a NEMA receptacle and plug number that is the same size and form as our common Edison duplex 120 volt receptacle but the wide blade of the plug is on the opposite side as the 120 volt duplex. Hubble or commercial Leviton works fine for 240 volt, and the 6-20 series looks less industrial in your home.

It is NEMA plug number 6-20P www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=6756 and NEMA receptacle number 6-20R or 6-15/20R http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=6756

Here is the NEMA chart. www.stayonline.com/reference-nema-straight-blade.aspx

“Stayonline” is a good source ( www.stayonline.com/default.aspx)but your electrician may like a local supplier.

*REMEMBER: BE SURE TO CHANGE OVER THE AMP INTERNALLY IF YOU DECIDE TO RUN 220 VOLT !*

Twisting the Wire

Twisting the Romex or individual wires almost completely rejects high frequency noise which consists of induced electrical fields from radio/TV stations, cell towers, microwave relay antennas, etc. Nearby low frequency noise from nearby AC wiring is also rejected. Conversely, the wiring being twisted will not emit a field or induce nearby wiring. Ask the electrician to twist the flat Romex cable one twist every 6-12 inches or so. He can do this by stretching out the length of the intended run and tying each end to something like a broom handle. Pull the wire taught and twist. I have done this using a big drill with a 1/2” chuck. The twist will be uneven which is a good thing attenuating a wider band of noise. Yes, it is tedious but critical to do so. If the lines are running in parallel each line should be alternately twisted relative to the one next to it and ideally the twists of two lines should be at different intervals meaning twist one line at 6 or 7 inches the another at 10-12 inches and another at 8-9 inches, etc . This prevents any coherent coupling between them.

Keep the lines away from each other by minimum 4 inches. It is perfectly OK to cross them at a right angle.

If you are running individual wires in conduit then twist the black (hot) and the neutral for each circuit. Multiple circuits can be run in the same conduit. I prefer PVC conduit if your local code allows so there is no inductive coupling to the (steel) conduit. Do not include the mechanical ground in the twist. Just run a lighter gauge insulated green ground wire for each circuit laid loose in the conduit.

In a recent untended test between twisted vs non-twisted wiring, two customers used the same electrician. The electrician was asked to twist the wire as described. It was discovered he did not do that step. He was required to come back and do it over, twisting the wire as described. Independently, both customers could not believe the difference in the sound. With TV/radio stations, microwave transmission towers and now 5g cell towers everywhere, these fields affect our equipment more now than we know. The most susceptible may be the highly accurate clocks in all DACs but these fields do affect all equipment, their signal paths and signal grounds.

Communicating with Your Electrician

If your electrician has any concerns about all of this, be aware he is always planning for CONTINUOUS current draw and rates everything and splits up the loads between each of the house phases, like the air conditioning, the electric dryer and electric hot water tank for the available amperage. Please explain to him that we are designing for incredibly short peak current pulses and we need the resistance from the wall outlets back to the utility as low as possible for the best amplifier and overall system performance. The continuous draw might be 4 -10 amps and is negligible from the electrician’s standpoint. Larger wire does not violate any codes in the US as far as we know but you and your electrician are responsible to be sure this is true in your state, county, and city. In summary, we ask the electrician to understand we want the lowest possible resistance between the wall outlets and the breaker panel. It is all about incredibly short-term current demands that are typical of music. These very high peaks can’t be measured with a conventional ammeter. Also, these very high, very short-term current peaks can be well above the rating of a 20-amp breaker. These peaks are so fast the breaker does not even see them and therefore they do not trip the breaker.

Summary

Here is the way to think about the goals and descriptions of this paper: The goal and ongoing process in our hobby is to find the choke points in our systems and upgrade them. The electrical power should be the first consideration in our systems and hence it is most often the first “choke point”. The system can never sound better than the worst power it is fed. There are two considerations: (1) increasing the wire size to improve the current starving and power modulation (noise), caused by the amplifier itself as previously described. (2) The noise coming from your utility and the surrounding airborne RF noise needs to be suppressed by twisting the wiring as previously described. Well-designed power conditioners are almost always a benefit.

Again, use your ears to decide.

Power conditioners fix some of the noise created by the previously described “amp starving” but it is better not to starve the amp and create the noise in the first place because amp starving often creates worse noise on the system that is measurably and audibly worse than anything that might be sent by your utility.

In many cases depending on the oxidation of your existing wall power connections, age of the breakers, but ESPECIALLY the length and gauge of the wall wiring, the above wall power changes in your home system are often a bigger improvement than any component that you can buy, especially with big solid-state amps that have long runs back to the breaker panel. But even people with tubes report improvements if not huge improvements.

Without exception over the last 20+ years, comments from those that have done the above heavy gauge wire wall power mods say there is audible improvement in dynamics while making the sound even more detailed, yet much more relaxed with dark backgrounds leaving only the notes and music. I was very surprised the first time I did this house power mod. I expected the bass and dynamics to improve which they did. I did not expect the mid-range and the highs to clean up and become far more coherent as much as they did. The improvements were at least as much as a “great” new component. The improved clarity is always surprising and obviously well worth the effort.

@immatthewj 

I wouldn't advise you do that either.  Based on my 25 years of experience and experimentation with high end power cables and power conditioners, I found that all things sound better plugged into, not just a power conditioner, but "the right type of non-power restricting  power conditioner."  Currently, and for the foreseeable future, I use an Audioquest Niagara 3000 power conditioner, which has 2 "high-current" outlets on it's back panel, which are specifically design for amplifiers.  I have all my components plugged into the Niagara 3000 power conditioner with phenomenal results.  The Niagara 3000 is the best I've ever owned.  Happy listening.       

   

holy crap @chuck that must be one the longest posts I have ever seen- good stuff! 

@mclinnguy

holy crap @chuck that must be one the longest posts I have ever seen- good stuff!

I am not arguing with what’s in that post, but I think it’s a cut and paste from something I remember seeing somewhere else recently. The Absolute Sound, maybe?

And as far as what it says, I won’t argue with anything become I am a pure ignorant novice on this stuff, but I cannot help but feel that a dedicated run of 12-2 (although 10-2 may be better) has got to be superior to running your audio off the same circuit all sorts of other household stuff is on.

Furutech DPS 4.1 PC run from wall receptacle to Puritan Labs 156, replacing their stock PC was revelatory.  This was replicated in my friend’s system with same Puritan Labs 156.  We were both taken aback.  Happy listening.

@kennymacc fyi…your AQ Niagara uses transformers and as such it is an active power conditioner. It works on the same principle as a Puritan PSM156 which is a current limiting active power conditioner. May be the high current outlets in the Niagara 3000 bypass the circuit with transformers but the fact that you have transformers already means you are limiting current.
Your best shot at a non current limiting power conditioner is with a passive Shunyata units.
In my experience power conditioner is not a mandatory item. Whether you need or not depends on quality of power in your dwelling and quality of power supplies in your components. Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. 

I am not arguing with what’s in that post, but I think it’s a cut and paste from something I remember seeing somewhere else recently. The Absolute Sound, maybe?

And as far as what it says, I won’t argue with anything become I am a pure ignorant novice on this stuff, but I cannot help but feel that a dedicated run of 12-2 (although 10-2 may be better) has got to be superior to running your audio off the same circuit all sorts of other household stuff is on.

Yes, you are correct, I am giving him the credit for someone else’s work. it is from Absolute Sound. Sources should always be made clear if posts are not original.

I have 10 gauge on a dedicated line but it has been so long ago I can’t recall a huge difference putting it in, but for sure it is one of the first things an audiophile should do. If one had a long run from their panel to the hifi they would have to be pretty "dedicated" to use 6 gauge, then drop it down to 10 gauge in order to fit it in the receptacle, but many audiophiles have spent more money on things that probably have less benefit on the sound quality.

In line with this thread though, I am confused why you need 3m power cords though- most people have the components close to the outlet or power conditioner and have longer interconnects to the amps, or longer speaker cables.

 

Which doesn’t preclude me from moving my dedicated circuit outlets up a couple of feet, and I suppose I probably will,

I wouldn’t, but it is your house (I hope?) After re-reading this thread if that is easiest then yes do it. I think alot of us who use power conditioners have it within 1-2m of the components, and then if you need a longer power cord to go from the wall to the conditioner you buy just one longer power cord. 

with a 2 meter run my amp is all that I can get straight into the wall. So right now, I am forced to use my glorified strip to plug the pre and cdp into. Problem 2 is that I cannot upgrade the pc to the glorified strip, because although it appears to be a very nice braided pc, it is hardwired in.

....but I found that I couldn’t reach the wall from my CDP or my pre with only two meters.

Sounds like you are fixed into your components needing to be in a rack? A tall one? Do they need to be? I don’t have a rack- I have platforms- so I don’t have that issue.

but I was curious as to the opinions about the limitations of a power conditioners power cord.

From my experience going direct to the Furutech GTX with the Coda amp instead of going through the Puritan PSM 156 had no difference, so I left the amp plugged into the Puritan. I haven’t tried with this Coincident Frankenstein amp yet though.

And replacing the 20 amp Puritan Ultimate power cord that feeds the PSM156 from the wall to a Shunyata SigmaV2 improved the sound quite a bit. It is the most important power cord, and should be your best, so IMO there is no "limitation for a power conditioners power cord" unless you are using an inferior one, or maybe one that is not up to the level of the others.

If you still have some OEM power cords you will probably notice the biggest difference once you have replaced the last OEM power cord in your system- once the "weakest link in the chain" or "the bottleneck" is swapped out to one that built properly is when the improvements of all of them become most noticeable. Not just about gauge, but EMI shielding, and your own components from contaminating the others with noise.

I think that is why some people replace just one OEM power cord with a $300 one and don’t hear that much of a difference, it is not only because their components are lower level, but they are still hearing the degradation of all of the other OEM power cords and interconnects in their system.

@audphile1  fyi.....No, the Audioquest Niagara 3000 power conditioner is not considered a power-limiting power conditioner; it is specifically designed to not limit current and even features: "Transient Power Correction" outlets that can provide a short burst of high current when needed, making it suitable for power demanding equipment like power amplifiers without compromising dynamics.   The Audioquest Niagara 3000 features:  High-Current Outlet, which are dedicated outlets designed to deliver high-current without limiting the power supply to connected devices like amplifiers.  Transient Power Correction:  This feature allows the Niagara 3000 to deliver a brief surge of current to handle sudden power demands during musical peaks.  Focus on noise reduction:  The primary function of the Niagara 3000 is to filer out AC noise, not to limit power.  As mentioned in my last post, over the past over 25 years, I've tested multiple types of power conditioners in my audio system (including so-called passive power conditioners), and because of it's advance non-power limiting technology, the Audioquest Niagara 3000 is the one I kept.  Happy listening.     

I have two direct lines, one for my power amp... which is plugged in directly and the other has my power conditioner where the other components are plugged in. 

@ghdprentice 

That is in line with the above article, and I believe that is @audphile1's philosophy as well. Are your 2 lines on the same phase? 

I really like that article- after most points he says "Again, use your ears to decide." 

I never thought of twisting the romex, I believe it is already, but a few more twists sure wouldn't hurt. 

And going to have to find some silver paste!

@kennymacc 👍

Digital sources poop noise back into the AC line. A good power conditioner makes sense as it not only cleans up the AC going to your components but also cleans up and reduces the noise going back into the AC line.
Once again the design of component power supplies and the conditioner matters here. In general though, amplifiers are usually better off when run direct without power conditioner while digital is plugged into the conditioner to mitigate noise going back into AC line.
I have two dedicated circuits - one for amp and one for digital. I never had good results with the amp run from the conditioner. All that’s needed is a very good power cord. My Bricasti M3 DAC also sounds best direct to wall. I haven’t tried my Aurender streamer with power conditioner but with its massive overbuilt power supply I doubt it will benefit. Just my experience.

  I was in this position and I experienced an improvement. I have a pair of 15 amp circuits that have Hubble duplex outlets. All my equipment uses upgraded 15 amp power cords. I installed a Richard Gray power conditioner that came with a very beefy factory cord. After it was up and running I purchased a 15/20 amp Pangea adapter and tried some of my other power cords and noticed a slight improvement. I then tried a Shunyata Venom HC power cable with very noticeable results. The Shunyata cable does not require the adapter. I could tell a greater difference changing that one cable than swapping cables from the conditioner to my component’s. Cheers , Mike B. 

 

@audphile1

Over the years, during the course of my experimentation with power conditioners and power cables, on several occasions, I tried plugging my amps directly into the wall outlets (with and without upgraded aftermarket audiophile wall outlets). Plugging amps directly into the wall outlet was conventional wisdom years ago, and some/many still abide by it. However, as stated, I found that I still preferred plugging my amplifiers into a high quality, non-power limiting power conditioners, such as my Audioquest Niagara 3000. I’m very happy that you’ve found a method which works best for you and your audio system. I’m also very happy to convey what works best for me. Happy listening.

So much of this depends on your equipment, electrical grid and sonic preferences...my amps only sound their best, to me and my friends,  plugged into the wall...but if I had different amps and/or lived 3 blocks away (which has a different power company), I might prefer them plugged into a conditioner...

@kennymacc I wasn’t doubting your results. I’m happy you’re content with your power distribution components. I’d be interested in trying the AQ 3000 or similar level conditioner at some point to see if it makes a positive impact. May be some day. But for now I’m good with powering my system directly from outlets. 

Some years ago I went through a number of the well known PC brands via lending library of CableCo in order to find one that didn't impact transients, no luck, didn't matter if outlets were marked for amp or not. Audience was the best of the lot but prefer all amps straight into wall via dedicated circuit running 10 AWG.

In line with this thread though, I am confused why you need 3m power cords though- most people have the components close to the outlet or power conditioner and have longer interconnects to the amps, or longer speaker cables.

@mclinnguy , to answer this I will say that my life is full of compromises.  Up until sometime in late '17 my gear was set up with the stock 3m power cords in my living room, and something occurred that made me feel I would prefer to listen in a basically unused back bedroom.  Therefore I hauled all the gear to that bed room and set it up and then scoped out where I thought I should put outlets to accommodate the stock 3m power cords and then I commenced to install outlets and drop in dedicated circuits to them.

Sometime between then and now there were a plethora of dedicated circuit threads here on A'gon and one of them made me decide to go from using three  dedicated circuits to using one, and that prompted me do once again break out my ancient power conditioner which may be a glorified strip.  Then, last summer, I got interested in upgraded power cords and I started down the road with three very affordable 2m cords which made the reach okay because the amp is positioned where it will reach a pc with a 2m cord and the pre and cdp were already using the glorified strip, so 2m worked okay there (then) also.

Present date:  I bought three new upgraded power cords and wasn't really thinking about possible ramifications of their 2m length.  My intention was to run the pre and amp directly out of the wall on one duplex and run the CDP out of the wall from another duplex and completely go without the power conditioner/glorified strip.  It was at this point that I realized that the location I had put the outlets in when I installed three new circuits worked fine for stock 3m power cords but fell maybe a foot or a bit less short with 2m cords.  Hence, for the time being, I am still using the power conditioner/glorified strip for my pre and CDP and the amp is straight out of the wall, and for the time being I am going to run it out of a separate circuit from the pre and CDP.

That's the short version.  And I type this next in all seriousness:  from reading your posts/questions it does appear that you actually read through the entire back & forth in the thread before you started typing.