A not sarcastic question for the power conditioner/upgraded power cord folks
And I realize that there are those that don’t believe in either
Assuming you use a power conditioner and after market power cords, do you feel that the power cord from the power conditioner to the wall might be a limiting or even a negating factor to the performance of the after market power cords that run from the power conditioner to the gear?
The reason I ask is that I was about to embark upon some more experimentation with different power cords and where I plugged them into when I discovered that the aftermarket cords I had purchased before and some recent arrivals are actually a meter shorter than the ones that came with the gear. This doesn’t matter for the amp due to its location, but when I did my last power cord upgrade I ran my CDP and pre into a conditioner so the length for those didn’t matter either, but as I was doing the musical chairs with power cords thing today, I also was intending to run the CDP and pre straight into the wall on separate dedicated circuits, but I found out that I am a tad short on those two.
Which doesn’t preclude me from moving my dedicated circuit outlets up a couple of feet, and I suppose I probably will, but I was curious as to the opinions about the limitations of a power conditioners power cord.
@audphile1, at the risk of being trolled by the Shea "brothers" (Chriso and Tim), I'll give you a quick update of sorts.
The maintenance I was going to do never got past the staging process. In other words I had everything unplugged and moved out of the way and had my drywall tools and etc on site and ready to go, but I just couldn't get myself to start the project. I do plan on moving those outlets, but for the time being I set everything back up with the "glorified strip" and I have been listening for maybe a week. I have not A/Bed those new cords (yet) but I must say I am liking the way everything sounds right now. And I was not feeling that positive about it when I shut it down for the maintenance that did not happen.
With that typed, I am not saying for positive that it was the new cords I put into my system. I am a moody person and the ears are connected to the mind and the mind (at least my mind) is a complicated entity and it does funny things to me. Not funny as in ha ha, but funny as in I don't understand it.
@mclinnguy, yes, you were/are right, and I took your advice.
my eyesight is getting pretty bad, but for this sentence:
OP
has some communication challenges…
I can only count three no matter how close I get my face to my screen. Meaning that the period at the end of the sentence (the second sentence which also utilized an ellipsis) was omitted. Which doesn’t matter to me, but considering that it was a critique of my ability to communicate, I just thought that I would bring it to the attention of " @chrisoshea ." The same "chrisoshea" who I am now pretty sure is someone else’s sock puppet.
Regardless of any of that: my system is down for maintenance. I am going to run my 2 m power cords directly into the wall from the gear.
@chrisoshea , how helpful that was. You may have some reading comprehension challenges. And where did you learn to end a sentence with an improperly spaced three dot ellipsis?
I was thinking about all my thoughts and feelings I still wanted to write about regarding the tariffs and my love for trump in that thread yesterday, Would it be ok to continue that here @immatthewj ?
Power cords can make a difference as long as your ears can hear a qualitative difference. Most high end audio cable come in different lengths to customize the fit to each individual system, cable management may be a better term. Trial and error, listen, purchase and return till your level of satisfaction. Good luck.
Re: the post by Chuck and also attributed to The Absolute Sound.
I might have a suggestion for those folks in the position of building a new home:
When I renovated my home and upsized 49.9% (a limit to avoid immediate reassessment) we changed our service entrance drop and the old 4/0 Aluminum SE cable was surplused. I ran that from the new primary panel to a subpanel just below my new living room and as long as we lived there we never got the slightest dip when the whole-house AC or anything else kicked in - including anything from some extended low end synth to the Also Sprach Zarathustra intro.
I had a separate 20A circuit fed to behind each equipment rack from that subpanel in the basement area below so all runs were less than 15 feet. The only other runs off that panel were to my electronics workshop in the room below, and I could only be in one or the other so it never interfered.
As noted in the really long post, the two key issues are 1: to have the stiffest possible power source (large gauge wire) as close to the load as you can with the best possible connections and 2: have some sort of RFI/EMI suppression as close to the load as possible as well. Even ferrites on every cord at the point it plugs into the load will help a bit, although circuitry in the power conditioner appropriate to the specific load type is valuable as well. I would quote brands, etc. but that construction and circuitry was back in the mid 90's and is not pertinent in todays market.
As always, be sure to take time to listen and enjoy the music!
@knownothing , thanks for clarifying. And I didn't take anything negative from the 12/10 river of denial comment. And now that I see what you are getting at, yes, what I think I am going achieve first is running my gear straight to the wall with nothing in between. And sorry if I may have came off as sounding terse about it. And whether or not I will swap out those runs of 12-2 that I put in for 10 is up in the air.
@immatthewjsorry, I do understand that you already have multiple dedicated AC lines in place. What I should have said is that it sounds like you have decided to configure those to use in place of your glorified power strip. My main general point was that there are much more glorified power strips available now, and much more glorified cables available to connect them to the wall, and that those cables can make a very big difference.
My snarky comment about 12 AWG vs 10 AWG AC supply wire is based on personal experience. YMMV. Running separate lines as you have should reduce any issues. And yes, running 10 gauge wire through ceilings and walls is more difficult than 12 gauge.
. . . staying off topic, @devinplombier, this all made me think of another movie I saw a while back ago, and I had to do a google because I forgot the name of it, but it was The Last Descent. Anyway, it was apparently based on factual events that occurred in 2009 in a cave in Utah when two brothers were out spelunking together and one of them decided to go down a tunnel that led just about straight down (as in inverted) where he got stuck and (after doing another google) spent 27 hours before expiring. And as I remember from the movie, he was so stuck that they never did recover his body as the risk of collapse of the cave would have been too great.
I remember watching that and being overcome by my own claustrophobia.
. . . since we are already off topic, I'll go on to say that whenever I work underneath one of my vehicles (which I do frequently) I do a real THOROUGH job of supporting it. Going out that way is also high up on my list of ways not to, although I would prefer it to being buried alive in a box. Thinking of working for an extended period of time in 18" of crawlspace made me think of that. The crawlspace, however, would trigger my claustrophobia while being underneath a vehicle doesn't.
Have you watched The Vanishing? The original Dutch version
Sorry for the off topic everyone 🙂
No problems on the off topic, @devinplombier ; anyway I had to google to make sure I was thinking about the same movie, and the one I saw had Kiefer and Jeff Bridges (and since I wasn't as tuned to actors and actresses back then as I am now, I just realized Sandra Bullock, who I usually enjoy a lot). So I am thinking that this is not the original Dutch version. Anyway, I think I've only watched that movie once, but I do remember that it bothered me ('bothered me' is the best I can do at the moment) considering the notion of someone being put in a box and buried alive. Man, that would be terrible. I can only imagine the insanity that would precede death by hypoxia. But I do not like to imagine it. I typed that it was way up high on my list of ways I don't want to die, but thinking about it, it may be at the very top of that list.
I've seen a couple or so movies since that involve someone being buried alive in a box, and it never fails to get to me. I almost cannot watch it.
Sounds like you are leaning towards dedicated circuits.
@.knownothing, if I have been unable to make clear by now that I have dedicated circuits, I don't suppose that anything further I typed on that subject will clarify it.
@immatthewj I totally empathize. If it can make you feel any better, mine will entail spending a day in a spider-infested crawlspace with 18" clearance under the beams.
Yuk! @devinplombier, my claustrophobia is kicking in just thinking about that. Being buried alive is way up high on my list of ways that I do not want to die. And just reading the word "crawlspace" makes me of John Gacy.
Honestly, before you go to too much trouble you might want to assess the worst load you’re ever likely to plug into your existing 12awg circuits, before you declare them inadequate. In my most humble opinion, unless you’re planning to biamp Apogee Scintillas with a quatuor of Krell KMA-800s you’re probably fine
I am kind of leaning that way. With the three circuits that I have there's a few ways to do it, which include having my amp all by itself. It is a small room, and it is not like I am listening at earth moving dB levels.
Doesn’t this fall under the weakest link category?
@curiousjim, I am inclined to think that it might, but I am not positive about anything anymore.
@duckeythere was a long thread on here about a low-cost cable brand called Preffair. Their power cables are in the $40-50 price range on Amazon.
Folks seemed to think that they were well built, and that in certain cases they sounded as good as brand-name cables selling for 10 or 20 times more.
At that price they're worth a try, why not? They certainly beat the black molded-plastic cord that came in the box.
Some caveats would be to check that the conductors are really copper and not copper-plated aluminum, and that the advertised 12awg wire is not 18awg buried in extra thick insulation.
@immatthewjI guess my point is that there have been some technological developments in power cables and conditioning since your conditioner was designed and built. In theory, hard wiring a power cable to your conditioner would be superior to an IEC connection. But the improvements in design over time in conditioner and cable technologies from companies like Audioquest and Shunyata (which have very different design philosophies) are stunning - especially at the highest form of the art.
Getting an updated power conditioner with an excellent supply cable would provide a noticeable improvement in sound if you ever decide that having a conditioner in your system is a route you want to go. Sounds like you are leaning towards dedicated circuits.
The designer of audioquest niagra left furman then made the 3000,5000,7000 series .upscale audio interviewed him .watch that .I use furman and audioquest cuz i have big monoblock amps.they have capiticors in furman and the aq models 3000 and up furman 20 I has 80 amps of transient.aq call it a magic box but it's a capacitor. The aq differs in that he put some magic ground purifier in it.looks like a series of coils with more in the 7000 model.i do like the fact that shunyata cryo all thier stuff.that puts the atoms back in thier lattice structure and rids impurities so electrons flow better. I would plug the amps directly in wall but we have power issues 2 x a wk and I can't afford to fix several big amps.some of my emotiva xpr 1 are unobtanium.wish they still made them.this is my most important aspect I have had all the models trip and protect the equipment. Happy hunting,my no good gofers pinball machine states what's all those wires down there. I think those gofers were on to something.happy listening. I'm a believer in 7 gauge wire from pangea.im sure there is better but great price point.i do belive in the twist.not the dance.in power cords and speaker wire and nothing less than 10 gauge for speaker.audio is based on science and ohms law with power meters and dB meters of meters ect it's all stimulates the brain .good luck on your quest
You probably understand what it’s like to work up there, crouched/kneeling/whatever on a plank that is sitting on a couple of ceiling joists or rafters or whatever one may call them, and all the other discomforts of working in an unfinished attic . . . the older I get the harder it gets and the easier and quicker I start cramping up when contorting my body to work in the places I need to work up there.
@immatthewjI totally empathize. If it can make you feel any better, mine will entail spending a day in a spider-infested crawlspace with 18" clearance under the beams.
Honestly, before you go to too much trouble you might want to assess the worst load you’re ever likely to plug into your existing 12awg circuits, before you declare them inadequate. In my most humble opinion, unless you’re planning to biamp Apogee Scintillas with a quatuor of Krell KMA-800s you’re probably fine 🙂
@devinplombier, I just wanted to clarify that what the author was suggesting was beyond cutting out holes for duplexes and fishing romex down through them. I have no intention of "stepping down" 6 or 8 awg to 10.
As it is, every dedicated circuit (six so far) I have installed I did with 12-2. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the internet when I dived into the first project, and during subsequent expeditions I guess I wasn’t convinced that 12-2 wouldn't/couldn’t carry the current satisfactorily and I kind of got the impression from electricians I talked to (not on the internet) that 10 gauge is difficult to work with. I am still not convinced that gear plugged into 10 gauge will sound better, but maybe I am just in denial, and I may go back up in the attic and swap out three of the runs I did with 12 and use 10. Just in case.
For the time being, I guess my first goal is to get my new 2m power cords plugged straight into the wall with nothing in between, and that is relatively simple and wouldn’t even require a trip back up to the attic. Unless I wanted to space those three runs out some more where they go down the wall, and I guess I probably would.
I appreciate the respiratory advice related to working in the attic. I’ve gone from full blown respirators to dust masks to this last expedition--nothing. You probably understand what it’s like to work up there, crouched/kneeling/whatever on a plank that is sitting on a couple of ceiling joists or rafters or whatever one may call them, and all the other discomforts of working in an unfinished attic . . . the older I get the harder it gets and the easier and quicker I start cramping up when contorting my body to work in the places I need to work up there.
in the article it was suggested to put the junction box as close to the outlet as possible. So what does that mean? Cut out the drywall so you can attach the work box to s stud next to the outlet you want to put in?
Good luck wrestling 6awg and 10awg cables into a standard JB though. I also can’t immediately think of connectors appropriate for that job.
Using a subpanel is the sensible thing to do here. Subpanels are designed to accommodate large gauge wiring in the first place, so it would be far less labor and pain than mickey mousing a junction box together.
It will cost, I don’t know, $70 or $80 extra.
The alternative is to run multiple 10awg circuits. That's probably the route I will favor when I get around to doing this job in my house.
I know the insulation material you’re talking about. Wear a respirator, not a covid mask.
It's not about believing. There are those who use objective facts, and those who use subjective opinions supported by any number of biases, realized or not. Those in the latter group fall for snake oil marketing tactics. Those in the former are true audiophiles.
@squared80, if you don't think that they work because you cannot hear the difference don't waste your time and money by using them; but there's also probably no point in wasting your time on threads related to the subject.
I asked this same question to the fellow who designed Audioquest's terrific Niagara line of power conditions. He replied with an unequivocal 'yes', although he hastened to add that the conditioner's cable was only one of many that affected the sound; every upgraded power cable provides an iterative improvement and merely omitting one does not negate the benefits provided by the rest of the conditioner/cable plant.
Fr starters if possible a dedicated 20 amp line to start ,then a high quality gold or rhodium over Copper AC outlet
I have currently a Niagra AQ 3000, next a Niagra 5000 the quality of power cord very important from AC outlet , and the Storm series or better complement their line conditioners
I have Mainly Tornado and Tornado Source power cords ,but do have 2 Thunders ,
much quieter backgrounds and dynamics far better with their grounding technologies and power correction , which is veryAudible at higher volume levels .
"And I realize that there are those that don’t believe in either"
It's not about believing. There are those who use objective facts, and those who use subjective opinions supported by any number of biases, realized or not. Those in the latter group fall for snake oil marketing tactics. Those in the former are true audiophiles.
"Which will put me back up in the attic again, which is my least favorite place in this house..."
It’s full of mannequin heads and creepy dolls, isn’t it...
and let’s not touch that basement door either, the padlock is there for a reason
It’s an unfinished attic with no floor and covered in some kind of insulation that throws up clouds of nasty dust whenever it is disturbed. It is cold in the winter and hot in the summer and in general it is not a comfortable place to work.
Sounds like you are going in the direction of dedicated circuits, but if you decide power conditioning would be helpful in the future, I recommend you splurge on the quality of the supply cable.
@knownothing, I've had dedicated circuits since nineteen ninety and something, but my question was more related to using a power conditioner with a hard wired power cord and how much that would degrade afer market power cords from gear to that power conditioner.
One note, if you opt for 8 or 6 gauge and are forced to step down in the wall to 10 gauge to connect to your outlet, I believe code will require a junction box.
It does, however it is more practical to terminate the large gauge wire at a small subpanel and run 10awg from there to receptacles.
This was actually addressed in that article; however, in the article it was suggested to put the junction box as close to the outlet as possible. So what does that mean? Cut out the drywall so you can attach the work box to s stud next to the outlet you want to put in?
My practice is to insure that the power conditioner has a robust power cord so I upgrade from the factory cord. I either assemble my own or, more recently I discovered that the Emotiva model XIEC-2-0 power cord meets my needs. It’s high quality design, very robust build quality and price point make it an incredible value. I purchased several during Emotiva’s recent sale.
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