Those budget Youtubers have no concept of what sound is. That man does more damage to our industry…
A controversial takes on low cost speakers with a lesson...
A controversial takes on 5 speakers comparison with an acoustic lesson few will catch:
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at first I actually thought it was a joke. But then he said that Andrew Robinson was his favorite reviewer so right there you can tell this is a high level expert because we all know that Andrew Robinson is the biggest strongest smartest guy around.. he actually said that he was shocked that his speakers sounded different when he moved them around. Who knew? I think he actually said that he had been listening to speakers for years and had placed them behind his monitors to get them out of the way. And he says that he discovered his speakers sounded different when he put them in different parts of the room and he is reporting that like he just discovered a new planet. I can’t imagine anyone would take this seriously. |
I take him seriously.... Because coming in audio thread for decade i read all day long people throwing money on brand name but never saying anything about acoustics concepts... It is easy to mock him as an uneducated audiophile... I prefer to think than mock people... His experience tell us something we cannot dismiss with sarcasm if we are not stupid and pointing him scapegoating him for our own deafness and blindness... I put this video because of his "naive" takes on speakers and his genuine surprize about the POWER of acoustics... Now imagine he knows everything there is to know about Helmholtz resonator... Imagine he begin experiment with his low cost speakers...instead of "upgrading"...Before "upgrading" ... Instead of mocking someone think and think again...
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I myself know what "sound" is... I dont give a damn about the industry... This thread is about acoustics education and wise informed purchasing... not about Industrial marketing...
This video will inform beginners to think about before throwing money and study basics acoustics BEFORE upgrading... A lesson i learned alone, because no one taught this in audio thread save to sell acoustics panels conflated with acoustics science... i wish someone had taught me 40 years ago....
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Well, I suppose we can disagree. Unlike you, I can disagree with you without calling you stupid. But the man said that he has listened to the same speakers for many years and only just realized that they sound different if you move them to different positions in the room. Now, if you are impressed with that, good for you. That doesn’t tell me that he’s a bad fellow, but it does tell me that he’s not someone whose audio advice I value. If you see it differently, I’m sure he’ll have some good advice for you and I hope you learn a lot from him. if you reach out to him, maybe he will help you position your speakers. You have quite a habit of calling people ugly names anytime they express an opinion different from yours. Interesting approach. |
I did not call you stupid... I described as stupid our habit to attacking people as your post illustrate instead of thinking about his discovery lesson... I am direct as you are... but i never attack people... Andrew Robinson or any others...
Then instead of thinking objectively about this naive person interesting experience you mocked him and attack the reason why i can post seriously this video... Who attacked who ? i answered you as you did in a direct way... I appreciate arguments not Ad hominem attack even against unknown people Youtuber or Robinson or myself posting this video lesson... Read the beam in your eye not the straw in others eyes...
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By the way i posted this video because i recognized myself before studying basic acoustics 20 years ago trying many speakers...
Am i an idiot? No i was ignorant... As most audiophiles are anyway about what makes S.Q. No it is not money, it is basics acoustics experiments among many other basic knowledge which makes a system great .... Then instead of mocking people we must think together not against one another.. It is incredible that i posted an interesting video, and some come attack the youtuber who did the video , and myself because i posted it and Andrew Robinson whom i dont know... Incredible...
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Before I can judge you I have to look at myself. Judgment comes from a lack of understanding. Our audiophile journey is about learning ( understanding ). So all I have to do is look back at ME. When I was young and had a fairly large stereo , I had my JBL large bookshelf speakers on the floor and against the wall. This was for years , and I had no idea that by elevating them and getting them off the wall would yield significant SQ improvement. I didn’t know YET , what I didn’t know. If I put someone down as inferior, I’m really looking for a way to compensate for MY lack of self esteem. Now set my BS aside and look at acoustics. For me two of the biggest lessons I had personally were when I took my Bose portable speaker and spent an hour moving at all around my garage to find the best sound. After that I would place it there while working in the garage. One day my neighbor walked in and kept looking around and said where’s your stereo ? The garage was filled by the sound. Another time was again realized with a tiny portable speaker and a plastic salad bowl. I was in a cabin with a group of people and we were trying to watch the World Series on a laptop and I wanted everyone to be able to hear the game. Last week I posted a thread asking for help to understand speaker decoupling with footers. Not one time was I criticized for buying Tekton speakers and there were numerous people expressing different ways they had found useful. I’ve probably learned more doing the wrong thing and most of the time I’ve learned the most with inexpensive stuff. So do I want to learn or do I want to criticize? That’s my choice and I appreciate people trying to help me. Respectfully, Mike B. |
I appreciated reading your wise and interesting post... Thanks buellrider97.. By the way i lived through exactly the same experience...
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I am sure you have learned lots about acoustics and speaker placement, and you find this video enlightening. In this context you are wise and learned. Good on you. However, the way you interact on this forum demonstrates ignorance. Notice I didn't use the term stupidity. You are so often in a dither. Have you thought about this? I am not here to attack you and hope you don't take it as such, but in so many of these threads you seem to be upset, and are on what feels like a counter attack or a defensive posture. An armchair shrink might think you have a persecution complex or are seriously insecure. Maybe you simply can't accept criticism or you actually enjoy arguing. I don't know the answer, but maybe you can look inside yourself and find one. I'm pretty sure you will again get bent and will respond to me in a likewise manner. But if you must, be my guest. I will say this, your constant bickering is quite distracting and saps positive energy from a discussion. For the good of everyone, yourself included, would you be willing to work on containing and curtailing your reactions? I hope you interpret my message as a positive attempt to make things better. Thank you.
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I just started a thread using an interesting video with a simple lesson, valuable for many... (By the way there is way more in acoustics concepts than placing speakers but it is a beginning ) Then comes someone mocking the youtuber and Andrew Robinson,me for using this video of a sincere ordinary perso0n relating his experience and this with nothing of value in his post... I answered it, explaining why attacking people for the sake of it instead of thinking is stupid... Now , you had already few times attacked my character in the past and now with no arguments pertaining to this thread , and you come again "psychanalysing" my right to answer... Who pollute this questioning thread ? me ? Rest assure i dont have any persecution complex, simply many people gangbang the one who is a bit different... My thread is adressing a question... If you are not here to answer it why are you here doctor ? For a gangbang ? I am interested to discuss the astonishing many ways acoustics parameters impact any speakers evaluation.. If i start another thread by chance, will you come again after another who will mock another youtuber,and me using it with the same "psychanalysis" or will you use your brain for thinking instead of veiled sarcasms, false politeness, allusions etc ? That is my question for you...
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Now an interesting 5 minute video with an acoustician about an underestimated problem well explained : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6N3uXxdYFs
Now this 5 minute is very basic.... It takes me a long time to use this pressures zones and reflections... I did not had the knowledge of this acoustician, i learn it bit by bit, i only experimented in my room for 2 years 7 Day on 7 and learn how to use these zones to my liking ... This is way more important most of the times than the difference of price between 2 speakers, as illustrated by the youtuber discovering it in my first video....
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Now i will suggest a three minute videos by a pro-acoustician to understand why the balance between diffusion/absorption/reflection matter... This video do not cover the way we can use reflection....It only set the stage...
But this explain why our youtuber in the first video was flabbergasted by the speakers difference in slight different location...Imagine now larger acoustic difference and the huge impact of other parameters than just location ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPYt10zrclQ
My three videos are only a beginning of thinking about the basics... I will wait for others impressions...
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"This video will inform beginners to think about before throwing money and study basics acoustics BEFORE upgrading." No, This video does not educate anyone about anything. The only thing it does is to show that everyone is trying to achieve 5 minutes of fame, even the ignorant. "By the way i posted this video because i recognized myself." We all recognised you as well. |
And we wonder why this space is shrinking when people shun practical acoustic principles for feel good magical Nirvana... @mahgister they wont get it that the room is the ultimate demon of the equation and trying to be purposefully blind to that and throw money at purchasing stuff just because of G.A.S is just a route to many examples of unfulfilled gear addicts |
This is the second thread today that I feel the need to throw some comment into. There are multiple things going on in this thread that need clarification. I have read the postings prior to @kerrybh comments multiple times. I don’t see that @mahgister called anyone stupid. He did point out that certain actions and conclusions can be stupid. That is true, but does not mean that the person is stupid. If we want to keep things civil, let's try to see the intent of the posting and the meaning, and not word groups that we find offensive. I will admit that @mahgister can be difficult to digest and his style of comment may be not always be as polite as it could be. I do think he has valuable things to say that are worth trying to understand.I am an old guy >75 and have tinnitus and plenty of other health issues. I have enough trouble going from day to day and trying to decide if what I hear is different than what I heard yesterday with the same song playing in the same environment with the same equipment. I value what @mahgister has to say whenever he comments in any thread. I think he has found a way to make his system in his environment sound good to him for daily listening for whatever music he wants to listen to. As he has said many times; he cannot really solve anyone else’s system problems without a long time in their environment with their equipment and their hearing. I appreciate comments from many participating members regarding gear and what they find pleasing, but reserve judgement about what that exactly means. I do not think there is any ultimate component, or ultimate system that makes music sound right to everyone regardless of cost. Each piece interacts with every other piece and the room to present a particular presentation. That may be what works for your sense of what the music should sound like, and good for you. I may not like that presentation at all. Is one of these the correct presentation that the original artist intended? I don’t know how to judge that. I also don’t know that the original artist could tell me what they think it should sound like in a way that I could understand and duplicate. What level of perception should each instrument or tone have at each particular time during the piece relative to the other sounds being presented. I wasn’t there during that performance, and do not know all the interactions and discussions between the equipment managers, sound engineers, and mixing engineers to know what compromises were made and what each thought they were trying to achieve. I can only try to get the best presentation that I am comfortable with and try to feel the emotional content and impact that the piece contains. As I make changes in my present modest system, I am trying to find a presentation that I am comfortable with, taking into consideration the constraints of my environment and hearing. All of the ”audiophile” terms of sound stage depth and width and instrument placement all play a role, but exactly what I am hearing and what I want from the sound is the ultimate goal. In my playing with components and connections I can affect different aspects of the overall presentation, but I can’t say that I have found any magic formula that hits my audio nirvana. I am jealous of @mahgister that he has found his. |
I'll stand by my original comment, I don't find anything of value in this video-I don't think I'm alone in that conclusion. If that makes me stupid so be it. I'll also say that the concept of acoustics is well known, I suspect, to those who frequent this forum, even if we don't post about it over and over. As I also said, if the OP learned something from this video, good for him, I'm sure this YouTuber has other material he might find beneficial. I was unimpressed-I thought I might be entitled to that opinion and I thought posting the video might be an invitation to comment-obviously that was an incorrect assumption. I'll take some responsibility for this little detour. I should have known better than to engage. As @abnerjack pointed out, in a very kind way, these interactions end up with this sort of pointless name calling with unusual frequency. Should have just ignored the post. |
No wonder young people don't like audiophiles, just read through the posts on this. I haven't even watched the video and can tell you are all so removed from the people just starting in the hobby. If you don't find anything of value in the video, then you're not the target audience. So don’t complain its not always about you, just move on. If there is misleading information feel free to educate in a respectful way don’t bash the person for not knowing. |
The acoustics principles are not only ignored but the way we can use them concretely are very complex to master in all their interaction... For example how can we act on the acoustical material content of a room , with his peculiar geometry,topology, to create a balance ratio between the listener envelopment and the apparent width of the sound source ? How can we use the reverberation time to do this? Why are we in the obligation to investigate how do this instead of upgrading without end ? A good gear piece design cannot replace acoustics controls, this is why. I have my own answer to this appropriate for my room and ears. There is many other answers possible... Acoustics of small room is very complex matter, only ignorant can claim as above that everybody know this...Buying acoustics panels is not enough in most room case by the way .... If those bashing the youtuber of my video and myself because we are faulty to suggest a reflection road about a complex problem, if those can understand even the way to pose the problem and know already the answer, they can answer for the benefit of all or go on insulting me and others giving sarcasms instead of thinking...
By the way laoman come in any thread i answer with insults even few times in my private mail since more than one year... His history contribution of attacks is easy to see if you go back in his posts history...
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The video about sound reflection in rooms. The tweeter is very directional and easily controlled. On the other hand...think about the bass signal being sent out of the subwoofer directly and then reflected off the back wall. At the same time a bass wave is sent out of the main speaker AND another wave is sent out the port or ports of both the main and the sub.. All bass sources arrive at different times. What a mess. Muddy bass is the result and moving speakers around won't fix this problem. THIS is the most difficult to understand and control and the biggest singular thing that makes music sound clear, dynamic and impactful. If you don't have the bass right you've got nothing. Everthing else is secondary. |
Dealing with Entry Level participants in any hobby/business/sport/activity can be bewildering and frustrating for the Experienced, unless you/we use empathy and try to remember what it was like starting out. At least the proposed $300 system in the video would be better than most Bluetooth speakers or whatever the Masses are listening to… (I think?)
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What is great about this video is he is a professional photographer and on a whim was using dsp.sounding out the room and doing corrections.speaker placement no expensive cables and amplifiers with low thd . Very efficient speakers with low cost and the 10% rule of it takes alot of $$$ to get the last 10%. What a great era with dsp. Enjoy the experience and the experiments.ill bet he could teach some of us about photography. Enjoy the music. |
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It’s nice that anyone can publish anything they want about anything to the internet these days. A lot of it is more interesting than junk put on tv and movies. One guy passed gas and made a 15 minute video covering it in great detail. Just kidding. But I bet someone somewhere has done that. That video appears to have more traction than most threads here. So it was apparently of interest to more than most anything discussed here. Nice!
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Lowest cost speaker: get the Lii 15" full range drivers and mount each on a plywood board. Connect your drivers directly to your speaker taps. Simplest and best sounding speaker for the money ($500 including the plywood.) Sound is holographic. No money wasted on shiny cabinet, additional drivers, crossover networks and speaker connectors. Want even more bass? Get a sub. You may not need it. |
you'll find me outside when the 2 of you meet.... If I want explosions, I'll post things post-HULK transitions.... @mapman ...'We are not surprised..." An eBay ad just gave me a tiny link to a woman's bare butt... Yeah, just that, from the side, just tush...nice, but nothing new 'bout it...🤷♂️ Cost No Object was lost and forgotten here awhile back, and I'm happy to drive the daylights out of what I've in hand, and the ongoing diy foolery I indulge in... Gotta post some pics before my personal Wall of Noise is broken up due to forces beyond control....(spouse...you know the drill...applied to your ears...She wants the Maggies'...) Just the cables on the backside will make y'all faint, and r&r'ing would cost more than the whole thing.....and isn't the point. ...and yields Smiles. |
Playing with that bass line 'punch'... trying to move a glass on a table.... |
I have compared lower budget with mid fi. They sound good. For many people, good enough. However, in my opinion, the quickness, the rhythm, the bass control, to keep detail in a way that it's just not music, but a remarkable experience every time you listen is not there like it is with the more expensive Hi Fi. |
This can easily be put to the test. Disconnect your left & right two way speakers but leave your sub hooked up and listen to a track you like and then do vice versa (unhook sub and leave the two ways connected). Personally, I would prefer the second option. |
For physical acoustics: Any presence of a phantom speaker phantom Speaker a +speaker A and speaker B + phantom speaker b is the result of distortion caused by "speaker boundary interference effect" as well explained by my first acoustician video...
For psycho-acoustics: We have 2 ears : then the speaker A will create by time delay for each ear a phantom speaker image a and the same for speaker B and his image b for the other ear...
Then the phantom image of speakers is not only the result of acoustical physical conditions but result in a stereo system by the way each ears will perceive each speakers with a time delay...
These facts illustrate how complex is small room acoustics and i used these facts with great result creating an holographical surround space with my stereo system...
In a word distortion is not a simple negative physical fact resulting from boundary interference effect but result also of our body organization (2 Ears) perceiving unnaturally the same sound from 2 sources (stereo system) ... We must not simply eliminate distortion then , we must learn how to control it in our system/room....
It is not enough to understand physical acoustics, we must understand basic psycho-acoustics and learn how to use it... This is why the balance ratio between LEV and ASW, between listener envelopment parameters and source width parameters ask for more knowledge (reflections controls and pressure zones distribution controls) than just basic physical acoustics about speakers placement as illustrated by my first acoustician video...
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There is a better road than the mechanical tuning of a room with a grid of Helmholtz resonators as i did for sure ( not esthethical and not suited for a living room )... The methods used by Dr. Edgar Choueiri will be more efficient using basic psycho-acoustic laws to compensate for the fundamental flaws of any stereo system if your room is minimally under acoustics control ( the right balance between absorption/reflection/diffusion)...
Those interested by acoustics with stereo system must read his articles... Those interested by acoustics experiments must read about sound waves reflection controls lateral and back reflection powerful impact and pressure zone distribution control with Helmholtz resonators...
Upgrading may be useless if you ignore acoustics....
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@uncledemp ...and I'll thank you and @gano for the kindness. "Damn, a troll I may seen to be...but I'll strive to be an interesting 'read', perhaps a *L* Been a weakend...low energy, slo-mo physically, got a r hip and knee that just as it started, I got dropped from my PHP after the RNA quit the place to return to an ER... Can't blame her, old humans have to be boring with their SOS... Had to call a week later to find out wth was up....got the Xtech I'd gotten pic'd by. oh "Can I view the pics?" "They've been sent to our file storage along with the rest of your file. I guess you ought to call them." New PHP appt. 9/9, but least its' this year. "One step into heaven..." 4th place in the world of $'s worth. The phoney cop didn't..... Enough if only for awhile.... For my upcoming B'Day, a gift I will wish for us all, if only here, is a space we ...anyway...see y'all on the screens, J |
Who knew if you moved speakers around it changed the sound? Did you see the speaker wire used? Looks like cheap came with my $50 speaker wire. Also how he stacked them, had them side by side, reflecting off a table. Did he break in any of the speakers or amp? I know horn speakers (klipsch) can sound like poo when brand new, they need time to mellow. I have no idea how he can not tell a difference between the lowest cost and highest cost speaker. No use of any SPL device to make sure you are matching volumes. Typically people will pick the loudest speaker, regardless of sound quality. Really weird he found no value with the highly praised Kef's. |
I am here laughing at this topic for 3 reasons: 1) What the video guy said has both a lot of what I'll call general truth; and also a bit of what I'll call specific truth... The general truth is basically just a take on the law of diminishing returns; that is, that the expectation he had was that a significant (to him) cost difference should have equated to a similarly significant performance difference. And his reality (which, after all is what really matters, our own individual perceptions and opinion) did not show that direct correlation. I feel like the umbrage being felt by some here is at least partially a result of the notion that for many in the audiophile community, having a 'law of diminishing returns' at all is anathema to the hobby itself. I mean, it's almost a Biblical level commandment that a TRUE Audiophile HAS TO hear significant differences between different equipment - and ABSOLUTELY MUST hear a huge difference if additional monies have been spent... I'll point to a quote from mswale just 2 posts prior to mine: "I have no idea how he can not tell a difference between the lowest cost and highest cost speaker..." Note this quote does not mention brand, model, features, speaker size / design / driver type, etc. - anything that might directly differentiate sound quality. Only cost. (sorry, mswale, not picking on you - this just caught my attention, as your comment was actually written; instead of just something that most of the other more negative commentors were thinking while they commented - but didn't actually include in their comment...) 2) Now for the 'specific truth' part (which I am surprised I did not see anyone else point out yet). The guy compared 3 amps in a cost range of about $1000 max; and speakers with a cost range of about $800 I think was the difference between highest and lowest (?)... that's not a huge difference, IMO (and look now, I am kind of taking the opposite position of #1, LOL). And, to be fair, although he said he really didn't hear any tangible difference in the amps - he was talking about specifically when using all the same features, etc. He did say that (obviously) engaging the room correction and equalization features on the top amp made an obvious difference in sound. And again, in fairness all the speakers he tested were of a very similar type (1 or 2-way bookshelves); he didn't put the KEF s against Klipsch Jubilees (for example) and then claim not to hear any difference. So, while I feel like what was said in the video has some general truth to it, it also needs to be said that the truthfulness of the video is specific to the rather limited range of cost... and of both the total quantity of equipment tested, and the lack of major differentiation (at least with the speakers) in terms of equipment design, etc. Last thing that brings a chuckle is why anyone would get upset out of this guys opinion..? I don't feel like he is going to dissuade anyone from interest in this hobby; at least not anyone with serious intentions. Heck, even though I agree with some of his premise on the whole 'law of diminishing returns' thing... my own decidedly non - 'audiophile level' vintage system has been a journey of acquiring gear I desired, then evaluation of performance in my particular home environment... and yes, changing out pieces, brands or models, even things like cables (!) for what usually ended up being more expensive, more reputable, and better sounding alternatives. So, essentially the same general process as a true 'audiophile'... just (admittedly) the combination of my enjoyment level / hearing quality due to age / dedication, if you will - and desire to stay in that 'vintage' 1960s - 1970s time period... leveled out at a place where I have some very nice equipment, with what most people would consider a very nice sound... just not at that definitive true audiophile level. I'm equally sure there are others out there whose interest level, etc. will take them all the way into the audiophile realm. And there's nothing wrong with that.
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It seems that some had not understood the lesson this naive audiophile go trough... He discover that room acoustic even if it is only speakers location makes the greatest differences between speakers in a similar bracket price ... Qualifying him of trolling is preposterous... My thread is not, nor this youtube video, motivated by trolling... I have little patience for this accusations by the way....
It is acoustics the greatest factor and the more impactful one ....Especially if we compare speakers in the same bracket price...
As a personal anecdote: My friend own big Magnepan in a living room with no acoustics control... My past speakers Mission in my acoustics controlled room were way better than his Magnepan... To be clear the Magnepan well installed acoustically will beat the hell of my Mission...( but he was only able to produce a wall of sound where i was able to create a sound completely enveloping the listener from all side not because Mission speakers are better than Magnepan, they are not, but because of the power of acoustics parameters control) Then compared to a living room with no acoustic optimization for the Magnepan, my Mission in a very good optimization room for them beat them by a huge margin...
The lesson of this video is a beginners audiophile discover the power of acoustics.. Not the law of diminishing return... Not the overpricing of speakers... Not the way to troll .... It is why i used this video... I dont like accusation of trolling...
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@gano I got your point. This is an interesting guy. As you say, seems to know a lot about cameras. He makes lots of camera videos, a random audio video and, apparently, sells what he calls "luxury hot sauce"- its called Oliveum and is very pricey. No word on whether cheap sauce from China is just as hot. |
